The non-standard game interfaces discussion thread (move, voice, vitality, etc.)

so you played gladiator, vball and archery. The two moves only significantly improves Gladiator I think. Archery it makes next to no difference as the amiing is still the same; two moves just allows you to load with your other arm. I don't think Beach Volleyball is significantly different as in Vball you hold both hands together, but I haven't tried that. Gladiator doesn't showcase Move's accuracy particularly well, at least not at the early levels, as it's not 1:1. You have to aim real low to make low strikes, rather than aim exactly where you want to hit.

To really appreciate Move, you want to play the more reaslitic games like TT and at higher levels than the beginner levels with their assits. Also get yourself some demos like RUSE and Tumble, where the control is very different.
I'll check out those demos, then. Thanks.

As for the EyePet issues, I can only assume you're working in a pretty dark room, or are wiggling fingers over a beige carpet. PSEye is all image based, requiring contrast between moving elements. If there's not enough contrast, it'll ignore slight changes in pixel intensities as noise and not register movement. That was the most significant problem with EyeToy and it's something we need 3D cameras to solve. The actual camera itself isn't bas quality, though remember it's some 3 years old, plus designed on older tech ready for release, so isn't going to feature the latest webcam/mobile cam tech. Perhaps Sony should have offered a new HD camera, and slapped the existing PSEye owners in the face? That would have increased the cost of ownership though, as plenty of Move buyers are just getting a single Move controller.
They most definitely should've offered an HD camera, or at least HD camera support. Who cares about the EyeToy adopters? They've already purchased their old EyeToys without any expectations of Move, they're clearly early adopters with lots of money available to them (as it's a pretty silly purchase). Significantly crippling your product to cater to them seems silly.

As for the EyePet issues -- the room was very well lit, and it was daytime. But it is a beige carpet, which I think is the most common type of carpet... Did no one at Sony think of the potential issue here? Did no one do any kind of real testing in the many years since EyeToy has come out? Or do they just not care?

I think Sony should just not try to do image recognition (EyeToy style gaming), because the technology just isn't there. It's as infuriatingly random was it was when I first tried it in 2000 with my Intel webcam on the PC. They should stick to the glowing-orb tracking with the camera, and the accelerometer/gyroscope readings in the controller. It works reasonably well, but the design itself seems quite limited also.

I'm particularly perplexed by Singstar Dance -- how exactly does this work? Does it not just track how your one hand moves with the controller?
 
As for the EyePet issues -- the room was very well lit, and it was daytime. But it is a beige carpet, which I think is the most common type of carpet... Did no one at Sony think of the potential issue here? Did no one do any kind of real testing in the many years since EyeToy has come out? Or do they just not care?

Given the lack of attention, I'm inclined to say they don't care or are overloaded. ^_^ (Some are probably working hard on PSP2 ?).
The problem you encountered can be sidestepped by using the Move controller instead of your fingers. They seem to have forgotten to change the instructions.

At SD resolution, both Kinect and Move cannot detect fingers when you're too far. The EyePet algorithm attempts to sidestep this by detecting movement instead of fingers, but it doesn't always work.

I think Sony should just not try to do image recognition (EyeToy style gaming), because the technology just isn't there. It's as infuriatingly random was it was when I first tried it in 2000 with my Intel webcam on the PC. They should stick to the glowing-orb tracking with the camera, and the accelerometer/gyroscope readings in the controller. It works reasonably well, but the design itself seems quite limited also.

As with most tech, it depends on how you use it. Image recognition works well for sketch recognition because you draw with the Move controller, or you hold the drawing close to the camera. The light from your TV screen will light up the drawing bright enough for a decent recognition. The frustration there is the poor implementation of "framing" the drawing. You have to hold it close enough but not too close. :devilish: If you use the Move controller to draw, you don't have to frame the drawing.

I think HD camera would have blown the bandwidth. It's not an issue with backward compatibility. At SD, they can also track player movement up to 60Hz. 120Hz for 320x240.

I'm particularly perplexed by Singstar Dance -- how exactly does this work? Does it not just track how your one hand moves with the controller?

I think it only tracks your controller hand but people will simply mimic the dancers' movement anyway. I played it this morning with my kid. He was too shy to play at first. Then jumped in. Let's just say dancing is not my strong suit. ^_^ I prefer the sports type. We love the song collection though.

EDIT: About EyePet... you also need to be aware that the game tries to simulate a pet's behaviour. It can be quite dumb (or play hard to get) sometimes. It's one of those "build your relationship with animal" thing. Even for sketch recognition, you'll find that your first 4-5 recognition sucks *ss because the program deliberately mis-recognize your drawing -- until you "trained" your pet. After that, every drawing will be recognized perfectly. My kid was disappointed at first (He looked at me with a sad face, then went hurray when the pet could deal with his drawing flawlessly). The old man inside me ran out of patience after the second attempt. :LOL:

I can't stand this stage. Sony management just doesn't care enough about the overall Move experience to think through the implication. In this aspect, Shuhei has failed his customers thoroughly. The product marketing people also need to share the blame on this. Even if they are tied up with other projects, some of these attention to details require very few additional work (like mentioning that you can use Move to lure the pet, besides your hands or fingers or feet).
 
I'll check out those demos, then. Thanks.


They most definitely should've offered an HD camera, or at least HD camera support. Who cares about the EyeToy adopters? They've already purchased their old EyeToys without any expectations of Move, they're clearly early adopters with lots of money available to them (as it's a pretty silly purchase). Significantly crippling your product to cater to them seems silly.
I imagine plenty got eye just for video chat.

As for the EyePet issues -- the room was very well lit, and it was daytime. But it is a beige carpet, which I think is the most common type of carpet... Did no one at Sony think of the potential issue here? Did no one do any kind of real testing in the many years since EyeToy has come out? Or do they just not care?
I think that part of the demo must have a bug or something.

I think Sony should just not try to do image recognition (EyeToy style gaming), because the technology just isn't there. It's as infuriatingly random was it was when I first tried it in 2000 with my Intel webcam on the PC. They should stick to the glowing-orb tracking with the camera, and the accelerometer/gyroscope readings in the controller. It works reasonably well, but the design itself seems quite limited also.
I think they should make them but just be cheap PSN games.Eye works just as well as kinect in many cases to the casual so why not.
 
EDIT: About EyePet... you also need to be aware that the game tries to simulate a pet's behaviour. It can be quite dumb (or play hard to get) sometimes. It's one of those "build your relationship with animal" thing. Even for sketch recognition, you'll find that your first 4-5 recognition sucks *ss because the program deliberately mis-recognize your drawing -- until you "trained" your pet.
If this is true, Sony is more incompetent than I could ever imagine.

"Yeah, the experience is frustrating, and yeah, it doesn't recognize what you want to do most of the time...but so do real pets! They're dumb too. We're dumb by design." :LOL:
 
I imagine plenty got eye just for video chat.

Eye of Judgment is a way way under-appreciated game. I rate the title very highly as a strategy game. I tried to demo it to a friend, and then got so engrossed in the game that I stayed up until 4am trying to win the computer (for the same game !). That one game lasted 6+ hours. The AI is one of the most unkind, but I prevailed ! :)
 
"Yeah, the experience is frustrating, and yeah, it doesn't recognize what you want to do most of the time...but so do real pets! They're dumb too. We're dumb by design." :LOL:

If they reuse the same tech for real application. I can see how it will shine. [Smile at Shuhei casually]
 
....So anyway, I encourage you to give Kinect a try somewhere (all of it, the voice recognition, the full body tracking, all of it)....

I have had a brief try of Kinect at the Eurogamer expo a couple of months ago, and I was fairly impressed by the tech. Indeed, on reading that Wired piece that AzBat posted some time back, it's very apparent that the tech, and software that makes it work, is extremely impressive.

But I just can't see games with depth being made for it. Note, I'm not saying hardcore games the 360 has enough of those already, but titles that are immersive and not just 'pick up and play' minigame collections, dance games and fitness software.

As for the voice recognition, I see that as a biit of a non-starter for game developers. While the concept is very cool, if Microsoft with its billions and huge worldwide development experience has struggled to implement it in the major global languages, what hope is there that a development team at TakeTwo, for example, are going to develop a Kinect game with speech recognition more complex than, say, Yes/No.

So the more I think about it, Kinect is conceptually a great piece of kit that will be let down by the (understandable) desire of developers to play it safe and develop another minigame collection, rather than push the boundries.
 
The same thing was said of the DS at launch...it's just a portable system with stylus touch interface. Sometimes small leaps in interface changes can make a big difference in gameplay. I'd love to see them enable XNA with Kinect so that we can start to see some ideas from the community.

Out of the 3 games I got at launch, I only really play Kinect Sports and I'm keen on getting a good fitness game (I wish they would develop a P90X for Kinect).

I've hardly touched Kinect Adventures and more than likely will never play Dance Central.Other than the 2 I've mentioned, I'm skeptical about any other Kinect games other than Child of Eden, but I'm ready to be pleasantly surprised.
 
I have had a brief try of Kinect at the Eurogamer expo a couple of months ago, and I was fairly impressed by the tech. Indeed, on reading that Wired piece that AzBat posted some time back, it's very apparent that the tech, and software that makes it work, is extremely impressive.

But I just can't see games with depth being made for it. Note, I'm not saying hardcore games the 360 has enough of those already, but titles that are immersive and not just 'pick up and play' minigame collections, dance games and fitness software.

As for the voice recognition, I see that as a biit of a non-starter for game developers. While the concept is very cool, if Microsoft with its billions and huge worldwide development experience has struggled to implement it in the major global languages, what hope is there that a development team at TakeTwo, for example, are going to develop a Kinect game with speech recognition more complex than, say, Yes/No.

So the more I think about it, Kinect is conceptually a great piece of kit that will be let down by the (understandable) desire of developers to play it safe and develop another minigame collection, rather than push the boundries.

I wouldn't just lay the blame soley at the feet of the developers though. I think the potential of Kinect will be hampered not only by the above but also because of the technological limitations as well as the current marketing demographic and thus primary userbase.

What i mean by the latter is that currently MS is marketing the device to the expanded non-gamer crowd. The soccer moms, aged, and folks who've never played games before due to them not having any history with the traditional gaming interfaces. From the products inception, to the early trailers, to the first reveal and reveal ofthe launch line-up, for most of us core and traditional gamers, we've been continually told that "Kinect is not for you". Most of the people i've encountered that have bought it or are looking to have openly claimed to do so on the premise that, "my wife/girlfriend/children would love this".

Due to the marketing message, I think what we'll see in future is publishers and developers supporting Kinect with predominantly the types of games that they percieve the above mentioned audience will buy, i.e. mini-games, fitness, dance and general non-gaming application shovelware.

The entire premise of the device is "hands-free", "simplistic", "easy to understand & play" gaming... i think developers ostensibly won't be rambling to make "deep" or "complex" games for the device for that reason alone.
 
I wouldn't just lay the blame soley at the feet of the developers though. I think the potential of Kinect will be hampered not only by the above but also because of the technological limitations as well as the current marketing demographic and thus primary userbase.

What i mean by the latter is that currently MS is marketing the device to the expanded non-gamer crowd. The soccer moms, aged, and folks who've never played games before due to them not having any history with the traditional gaming interfaces. From the products inception, to the early trailers, to the first reveal and reveal ofthe launch line-up, for most of us core and traditional gamers, we've been continually told that "Kinect is not for you". Most of the people i've encountered that have bought it or are looking to have openly claimed to do so on the premise that, "my wife/girlfriend/children would love this".

Due to the marketing message, I think what we'll see in future is publishers and developers supporting Kinect with predominantly the types of games that they percieve the above mentioned audience will buy, i.e. mini-games, fitness, dance and general non-gaming application shovelware.

The entire premise of the device is "hands-free", "simplistic", "easy to understand & play" gaming... i think developers ostensibly won't be rambling to make "deep" or "complex" games for the device for that reason alone.
At least the Steel Battalion game aims to skew that image, if it'll be successfull in that remains to be seen, of course.
The previous incarnation of that game was anything but aimed at casuals.
A cynic might think that MS just wanted the name so that Kinect would not be too readily associated as too casual, and that the final game will be anything but hardcore because of the apparent limitations of the input device.
 
Microsoft marketing is doing pretty good here so far, with two parents here having their kids exposed to Kinect while shopping and wanting it. One of them already has a Wii and a Playstation 3, so I don't think he'll budge ... ;) But it made him more interested in Move. The other already has a Wii but nothing else.

I do think that Microsoft's marketing will help Sony sell Move, but I also think they'll manage to sell some new 360s this Christmas. We'll see. As it stands, I'll stick to my prediction that Move and Kinect won't cause many existing HD owners to change ship, and that they're fighting for current Wii owners and new audiences, as well as preventing their current userbase from buying a Wii if they hadn't already (there were a few people at work that considered getting a Wii to compliment their PS3s for the kids, but now just go with Move instead).

Will be interesting to see how this developrs. The marketing advantage will have to compensate for price first, and then it will be interesting to see where the scale tips for that, both for existing 360 owners and system buyers. We should see a good peak at Christmas for all of them, but where it will go after Christmas is anyone's guess.
 
What i mean by the latter is that currently MS is marketing the device to the expanded non-gamer crowd. The soccer moms, aged, and folks who've never played games before due to them not having any history with the traditional gaming interfaces.
It's probably wrong to say they are non-gamers, as most of them have played PopCap type games, Chess and Solitaire on Windows, etc.

From the products inception, to the early trailers, to the first reveal and reveal ofthe launch line-up, for most of us core and traditional gamers, we've been continually told that "Kinect is not for you". Most of the people i've encountered that have bought it or are looking to have openly claimed to do so on the premise that, "my wife/girlfriend/children would love this".

Due to the marketing message...
That's the launch message, to reach a new audience. MS themselves have spoken of broadening Kinect to support core gamers and add depth to existing games. It may not happen for a year, but I expect this time next year we'll see core 360 franchise titles with Kinect support.
 
It's probably wrong to say they are non-gamers, as most of them have played PopCap type games, Chess and Solitaire on Windows, etc.

I use the term non-"gamer" losely to refer to a segment of people who as i said have little to no history with traditional games played with traditional game inputs ;-)... try asking someone who plays popcap/facebook games/casuals windows games if they consider themselves a gamer... see what they say? ;-)


That's the launch message, to reach a new audience. MS themselves have spoken of broadening Kinect to support core gamers and add depth to existing games. It may not happen for a year, but I expect this time next year we'll see core 360 franchise titles with Kinect support.

MS have said such as damage control as a means to reassure their current core userbase that Kinect will not take away their focus from their primary core demographic. Even the future existence of Kinect "supporting" or "enabled" core games (which i don't expect we'll see many of), still doesn't constitute a broader focus.

Surely their launch marketing message should be of a device which caters to everyone if that is their real goal? So far i haven't seen such, and i think that their launch line-up is indicative of things to come. Hopefully, i'd love to see a whole bunch of really cool core games that really take advantage of the hardware & provide a deeper, more immersive gameplay experience than anything we've seen so far. In honesty however i'm not gonna hold my breath as i can't really see it happening considering the way the thing is being pushed.
 
From Ubisoft sales report.

We are also encouraged by the very positive early performance of Kinect and the good showing of our games for this system, especially Your Shape: Fitness Evolved which is the best selling third-party game for Kinect in the United States.

And Just Dance 2, launched in mid-October, is the Wii phenomenon of the moment, with [first 5 week] sales up 75% over Just Dance which is now at 4M units sold. Which leads to interesting bullet points in their presentation, in bold letters.

  • Wii a very relevant platform
  • Kinect, Move, 3DS, Wii: very positive future trends

http://www.ubisoftgroup.com/gallery_files/site/270/1042/2350.pdf
http://www.ubisoftgroup.com/gallery_files/site/270/1042/2349.pdf
 
Yet another motion gaming patent filing based on ultrasonic sensor plus existing Move technologies (gyroscope, accelerometer, magnometer, LED, wide-angle camera)
http://www.siliconera.com/2010/11/15/sony-patent-unveils-kinect-like-device-for-consoles/

Sony Computer Entertainment America may have ... a new device that tracks the location of players.

The news comes from a patent application filed in the United States by SCEA, which shows this controller. It’s equipped with a gyroscope, accelerometer, magnometer, and most interestingly an ultrasonic transmitter. The controller uses this to communicate with another device to determine the location of the controller and player through echolocation.

Sounds like a way to upgrade PSEye...
 
Back
Top