Killzone 3 and MLAA

[Arwin]

It's hard to make a final judgement at this stage - I'm not sure how much they've optimised the engine for 3D display now, and whether or not they'll have stuff they'll switch on/off between the two in the final version which they may not do now (e.g. I imagine perhaps motion blur, but certainly depth of field may not be as necessary in 3D, and all explosion effects are going to work with 3D particle effects now as much as possible)

 

[Billy Idol]

'From a gameworld design point of view, I am wondering the following:

MLAA has problems with thin opjects, for instance one can see this when looking at the wires in the KZ3 trailer.

If you design a convincing 3D world, you aim is to enhance immersion an authenticity.

With this point of view the artists think that it is a good idea to include the thin wire cables.

But due to tech problems, i.e. aliasing, thin objects typically look ugly...and due to the shimmering destroys the immersion and the goal of the artists.

So, if thin objcts are a problem with for instance MLAA, why even include them in the game? This holds for other things to I see in games...and it is even more obvious with MLAA and thin objects!

So easy question: if it looks ugly due to the tech, why even include it?
If GG would not have included the thin wires, the overall IQ perception would have been better IMO.

 

[nightshade]

Because wires, fences, railings are usual parts of a modern environment....no such case with games set in older times like GOW3.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

But they don't need to be, certainly not on an alien world or future world where you don't need to recreate our current infrastructure method. They could use underground wires, wires running through the building infrastructure, wireless technologies, more solid lookinig railings or partially filled railings, etc.

Billy is dead right - artists should be working within the limits of the technology, but then it could be that MLAA was added late in the game (almost certain, actually, with work on KZ3 starting long before GOW3 appeared with GWAA) and they haven't addressed the art to accomodate. Had KZ3 started with the intention to use MLAA, I'm sure the artists would have made sensible changes to maximise the game's look, and we may get changes yet.

 

[Iron Tiger]

Considering how hot an inefficient NV's current GPUs are, Sony's not going to want an NV part in their next console. With that goes QCAA, and any hope of hardware BC support of games that need it. If games can't be patched to use another form of AA, Sony's got to be trying to hard to sell devs on an alternative, so they don't continue releasing new games with QCAA. Internally, they can just ban it outright.

 

[jonabbey]

Considering how hot an inefficient NV's current GPUs are, Sony's not going to want an NV part in their next console. With that goes QCAA, and any hope of hardware BC support of games that need it. If games can't be patched to use another form of AA, Sony's got to be trying to hard to sell devs on an alternative, so they don't continue releasing new games with QCAA. Internally, they can just ban it outright.

That can't make any sense. Support for QAA would have to be near the least concern with a PS4 GPU, even given the desire for backwards compatibility.

 

[Iron Tiger]

That can't make any sense. Support for QAA would have to be near the least concern with a PS4 GPU, even given the desire for backwards compatibility.

If they care about BC in the next gen, it has to be a consideration. What happens if the best-selling PS3 titles use it, but then those are among the few that don't play on the PS4?

 

[cal_guy]

If they care about BC in the next gen, it has to be a consideration. What happens if the best-selling PS3 titles use it, but then those are among the few that don't play on the PS4?

Implement a patch to remove it?

 

[assurdum]

'From a gameworld design point of view, I am wondering the following:

MLAA has problems with thin opjects, for instance one can see this when looking at the wires in the KZ3 trailer.

If you design a convincing 3D world, you aim is to enhance immersion an authenticity.

With this point of view the artists think that it is a good idea to include the thin wire cables.

But due to tech problems, i.e. aliasing, thin objects typically look ugly...and due to the shimmering destroys the immersion and the goal of the artists.

So, if thin objcts are a problem with for instance MLAA, why even include them in the game? This holds for other things to I see in games...and it is even more obvious with MLAA and thin objects!

So easy question: if it looks ugly due to the tech, why even include it?
If GG would not have included the thin wires, the overall IQ perception would have been better IMO.

Killzone 2 has similar problems with the thin objects with QAA from what I have seen (I have the game)... Guerrilla has solved that use the popin & different (more larger) texture to hide aliasing in the long distance... I'll be waiting the next year to talk how bad is the MLAA because the game it's pre alpha & the post processing optimizing are the final parts of the work... another question: I'm pretty convinced GOW 3 use MLAA too for the trasparancies; just look the jaggies on uncharted 2 transparencies vs gow 3 transparencies. I don't know how, but surely isn't 2xmsaa in gow 3...too clean...

 

[messyman]

I was just playing Mirror's Edge on my PC with 4xMSAA in 1280x720 and that game still has a lot of jaggies on fences. I'd say KZ3 is looking pretty good so far.

 

[Iron Tiger]

I was just playing Mirror's Edge on my PC with 4xMSAA in 1280x720 and that game still has a lot of jaggies on fences. I'd say KZ3 is looking pretty good so far.

I've been playing it with 8xAA at 1080p on my GTX470, and I'm still noticing a lot of jaggies. It looks a lot better on my 5850 rig with 4x SSAA.

 

[Neb]

I was just playing Mirror's Edge on my PC with 4xMSAA in 1280x720 and that game still has a lot of jaggies on fences. I'd say KZ3 is looking pretty good so far.

I've been playing it with 8xAA at 1080p on my GTX470, and I'm still noticing a lot of jaggies. It looks a lot better on my 5850 rig with 4x SSAA.

You need to enable transparency AA in ATI CCC (adaptive AA, perfomance or quality) or in Nvidia CP. Then fences will look smooth otherwise it wont mather what MSAA value you got since it wont apply to transparencies. Perfomance hit will be minimal in ME.

 

[Iron Tiger]

I'm talking about edges. The moment I start it up, on the cityscape behind the menus, you can see some pretty offensive jaggies and pixel crawling. It's not as annoying in-game, but it's still noticeable if you're looking. The bright whites contrasts a lot against solid colors (and AO shadows on my GTX470).

 

[Shifty Geezer]

If there's HDR and it's not being mapped down to LDR before MSAA is applied, all the MSAA in the world won't fix the jaggies.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

I'm talking about edges. The moment I start it up, on the cityscape behind the menus, you can see some pretty offensive jaggies and pixel crawling. It's not as annoying in-game, but it's still noticeable if you're looking. The bright whites contrasts a lot against solid colors (and AO shadows on my GTX470).

Mirrors Edge is, for me, a very beautiful game. I think this game can have great benefits from MLAA.

 

[Neb]

I'm talking about edges. The moment I start it up, on the cityscape behind the menus, you can see some pretty offensive jaggies and pixel crawling. It's not as annoying in-game, but it's still noticeable if you're looking. The bright whites contrasts a lot against solid colors (and AO shadows on my GTX470).

Ah OK I see. Shader alisasing is the major culprit and some polygon edges in stark contrast due to HDR. DX9 for the loss.

4xMSAA
http://www.abload.de/img/mirrorsedge2010-03-090ye1v.png
http://www.abload.de/img/mirrorsedge2010-03-082jdrn.png

 

[Iron Tiger]

Ah OK I see. Shader alisasing is the major culprit and some polygon edges in stark contrast due to HDR. DX9 for the loss.

Unless you've got an Evergreen and can run it with SSAA, then it's DX9 FTW.

 

[Neb]

Unless you've got an Evergreen and can run it with SSAA, then it's DX9 FTW.

Lucky Nvidia owners can just install nHnacer and do SSAA with 8xxx series or better. But what I was pointing at is DX10 these problems with HDR breaking AA can be much easier avoided.

 

[assurdum]

About Infamous 2... the E3 trailer seems lack of any AA type but the new gameplay leave me very confused... sometimes appears 2xmsaa, in the others a sort of MLAA but 'different' with kz 3 or gow 3... I don't know it's possible to use a MLAA with 'limited' edges?

 

[dragonelite]

About Infamous 2... the E3 trailer seems lack of any AA type but the new gameplay leave me very confused... sometimes appears 2xmsaa, in the others a sort of MLAA but 'different' with kz 3 or gow 3... I don't know it's possible to use a MLAA with 'limited' edges?

Maybe something like bungie did with Halo:Reach temporal AA.