Home Theatre Q.

[vjPiedPiper]

So i recently got a new TV, Blu-ray player and amplifier at home.
and i am experiencing some odd problems getting it all connected.

The goal is to run everything via the TV. ( LG50PK550 ) which has a s/pdif output
that i have plugged into the AMP (low-end Yamaha 5.1 system)
(this means i can switch input devices via the tv, which makes everything very gf friendly)

So i have
xbox 360 via hdmi ----> tv
Blu-Ray player via -hdmi----> tv
tv via optical spdif -----> Amp

So when i use the xbox i get a full 5.1 digital signal to the AMP, but when i use the blu-ray player the amp only shows it is receiving a stereo PCM signal via the optical spdif connection - any reason why this would be? some form of DRM? configuration setting in the AMP maybe?
i would really like to get a full 5.1 digital signal to the amp via the tv when the course is the blu-ray player.

I can of course connect both the 360 and blu-ray player to the AMP directly via HDMI, and then go hdmi to the TV, but then i will need to have the amp on, just to play dvd's or casual gaming etc.

thanks for any help/advice

PiedPiper

 

[Captain Chickenpants]

At a guess I would say you need to tell your blu-ray player that your amp is DTS etc capable.
The other option is that the TV is downmixing the source, although if it is routing the XBOX ok then probably not. May need to play around with your TV configuration settings.. Almost certainly the problem is not the AMP.

 

[Zaphod]

So when i use the xbox i get a full 5.1 digital signal to the AMP, but when i use the blu-ray player the amp only shows it is receiving a stereo PCM signal via the optical spdif connection - any reason why this would be? some form of DRM? configuration setting in the AMP maybe?

Yes, it's DRM. The TV isn't allowed to pass through a HDMI multichannel input from an encrypted source to S/PDIF. You'll probably get the same from the 360 if you play a DVD, but a game will work fine.

I'm guessing this part of the spec isn't as much about copy protection as it is about planned obsolescence of receivers. They've got HDMI capable ones to sell, you know.

 

[Captain Chickenpants]

Yes, it's DRM. The TV isn't allowed to pass through a HDMI multichannel input from an encrypted source to S/PDIF. You'll probably get the same from the 360 if you play a DVD, but a game will work fine.

I'm guessing this part of the spec isn't as much about copy protection as it is about planned obsolescence of receivers. They've got HDMI capable ones to sell, you know.

Well I didn't know that! I was probably going to run into this issue in a few days time as well as I have just got a new TV with HDMI and optical out and was going to try and do the same thing with regards to routing stuff through the TV.

 

[homerdog]

I don't understand how it would be not easier to run everything via hdmi to the receiver. Never have to change input on the TV, and you'll never get the sound but no video/vice versa problem. Seems like it'd be way less confusing for the gf...

The Final Solution is to get an RF capable Harmony remote with an RF -> IR adapter for your components. But a regular IR Harmony would still be a worthy investment.

 

[Zaphod]

I don't understand how it would be not easier to run everything via hdmi to the receiver.

It would. However, it could also require a new reviewer. Many, many people have tried to use a TV as a HDMI switch with an otherwise capable receiver (that just happen to be from the pre HDMI-era), only to be thwarted by this limitation. I just don't see any good reason for it, except to push new gear where it otherwise would not be needed.

Personally I'm not to bothered as I havent gone Blu-ray, use a HTPC for DVD/music/streaming, and the TV decoder/PVR doesn't output with encryption. Thus my (not that) old Denon AVR-1804 still does fine.

 

[homerdog]

It would. However, it could also require a new reviewer. Many, many people have tried to use a TV as a HDMI switch with an otherwise capable receiver (that just happen to be from the pre HDMI-era), only to be thwarted by this limitation. I just don't see any good reason for it, except to push new gear where it otherwise would not be needed.

Personally I'm not to bothered as I havent gone Blu-ray, use a HTPC for DVD/music/streaming, and the TV decoder/PVR doesn't output with encryption. Thus my (not that) old Denon AVR-1804 still does fine.

Hey I have that exact receiver :smile:. Works very well aside from the lack of HDMI. And it makes a loud popping sound out of the rear speakers when switching from stereo to Dolby Digital.

Also judging from the op he already has an HDMI capable receiver.

I can of course connect both the 360 and blu-ray player to the AMP directly via HDMI, and then go hdmi to the TV, but then i will need to have the amp on, just to play dvd's or casual gaming etc.

 

[Zaphod]

Ah. Must have tuned out on the amp part after "low-end Yamaha 5.1 system"...

Perhaps it's not very eco-conscious of me to pipe everything through the amp, but they don't consume that much power when idle and I mostly have it synced to the TV on/off with a remote macro.

 

[homerdog]

@ vjPiedPiper. As Zaphod pointed out, the Xbox and internal ATSC/QAM tuner will output 5.1 from the optical out on the TV. DVDs and Blu-rays will be downmixed to stereo. This gave me a real headache at work the other day when trying to hook up a Blu-ray player to a cheap HTIB.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

But a regular IR Harmony would still be a worthy investment.

That's what I use, and works amazingly well, and the online setup makes it a relatively painless process to setup multiple devices in multiple configurations.

Once everything is setup, it's pretty easy for anyone to use.

As to the whole HDMI - SPDIF downconversion it's DRM and not planned obsolescence. The same should happen with video signals passed onto a VGA or Component Video output. It was all designed to make it virtually impossible to copy full 5.1 and full 720/1080 resolution. Thus you need a HDCP protected path the entire way.

Of course, hackers ended up getting around that by using a PC which exposed vulnerabilities in the copy protection. But the DRM remains to at least discourage casual piracy.

Regards,
SB

 

[Zaphod]

As to the whole HDMI - SPDIF downconversion it's DRM and not planned obsolescence. The same should happen with video signals passed onto a VGA or Component Video output.

But it's not the same. For the video signal, you can't get at the HD image unless you're a display device (disregarding HDCP strippers pretending to be). You can get at the standard digital audio directly through the standard S/PDIF out. And, on some players, to the HD through analog outs. With both those outputs present on players the HDMI pass-through restriction on DD/DTS makes no sense from a protection standpoint. As an upgrade incentive it does.

Edit: Of course, there may also be valid technical issues, but I think one would have to be pretty blue-eyed to believe planed obsolescence/upgrade incentives does not factor into the planning and implementation of such systems. Or perhaps I'm just a cynic.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

But it's not the same. For the video signal, you can't get at the HD image unless you're a display device (disregarding HDCP strippers pretending to be). You can get at the standard digital audio directly through the standard S/PDIF out. And, on some players, to the HD through analog outs. With both those outputs present on players the HDMI pass-through restriction on DD/DTS makes no sense from a protection standpoint. As an upgrade incentive it does.

Edit: Of course, there may also be valid technical issues, but I think one would have to be pretty blue-eyed to believe planed obsolescence/upgrade incentives does not factor into the planning and implementation of such systems. Or perhaps I'm just a cynic.

Eh, I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying.

There is no difference between a receiver taking an HDMI HDCP protected input and either processing or passing on the HDMI HDCP stream to another device along the chain. It doesn't matter if it's audio or video as long as it remains in a HDCP protected connection.

Likewise, no receiver is allowed to take the HDMI HDCP protected video stream and then pass it along through VGA or Component video without first downconverting it even though both are perfectly capable of 1080 i/p. The same as it cannot take a protected audio stream and pass it along through either coax or S/PDIF digital paths.

My receiver at home is more than happy to take a 1080p image received from my HTPC through HDMI and pass along a 1080i image to TV through component video. As long as it isn't HDCP protected. As soon as I attempt to do that the video is automatically downsampled to 480p I believe (it's been a while since I tried). Swap in an HDMI cable and voila no problems. Both audio and video are passed through untouched. And if my TV set had an internal 5.1 channel audio processor, then it would be able to out 5.1 no problems even after passing through the receiver.

Regards,
SB

 

[vjPiedPiper]

Thanks for all the replies everyone, looks like i will have to run everything via the receiver

Will running the xbox360 via the receiver (using hdmi) incur any input lag?

 

[Zaphod]

Eh, I'm not sure I'm understanding what you're saying.

I'm saying there's no good reason to protect the audio that way, since you can get at the unprotected stream just as easily (which you can't with the video) on the playback device. It's like barring your windows while leaving the front door wide open with a "welcome in"-mat in terms of copy protection.

 

[Malo]

Will running the xbox360 via the receiver (using hdmi) incur any input lag?

Doubtful, depends on the receiver and the tv. If there is it should be very small and the only games a tiny bit of lag will matter in have input lag adjustment (ie. Rockband).

 

[Mize]

Why wouldn't you run everything through the amplifier instead of the TV?

Ah...nevermind...seems you went that route. I always find it cleaner - just power and one HDMI to the TV, all else to the amp.

 

[vjPiedPiper]

Well another update for everyone on this issue...

So i got another HDMi cable and tried running everything via hdmi. eg.
xbox -> amp via hdmi
blu-ray -> amp via hdmi
amp -> tv via hdmi

result... NO sound from the Amp, regardless of input???

a closer look at the manual for the amp.
http://www.yamahamusic.com.au/products/avit/htsystems/YHT-292.asp
Reveals that apparently the AMp doesn't play Audio from incoming HDMI sources???
it needs a second digital audio input in order to be able to play back the audio in the HDMI source? - AND the tv sound needs to be turned off.

So i have done some more testing, but still not having much luck.
i have managed to get digital 5.1 from the 360, in both dvd's and games, but still no digital 5.1 from the blu-ray? i can get a digital pcm stereo form the blu-ray thats all.

VERY frustrating. just wondering iof anyone else has run into this issue or if it's common to receivers??

 

[homerdog]

Holy crap. This is not a common issue for receivers.

 

[vjPiedPiper]

OK so i have done a bit more research and found out that the receiver only does hdmi "pass-through" not any actual hdmi decoding.

I know it's my fault for not researching a purchase properly, but i am pretty upset about it.
I think it's fair to expect that if a receiver has hdmi inputs it will decode the audio in from said signal. Not sure if i should try and return it or not, i didn't ask about anything like this so i can hardly claim they misrepresented the product.

The result of all of this is..... my new setup will be..
360 -> tv via VGA. (apparently i get much lower latency to screen with vga vs hdmi)
360 -> amp via optical / spdif.
Blu-ray -> tv via hdmi
Blu-ray ->amp via co-ax digital.
Tv --> amp via optical. (so i can get 5.1 for OTA digital broadcasts)

so my only issue will be getting the Amp to recognize the digital signal coming down the co-ax from the Blu-ray, which i haven't been able to do so far
( i should be able to get an AC3 5.1 digital signal via co-ax right? )

 

[Mize]

That must have been one cheap amp! Can you return it and upgrade to something a bit more robust?