The importance of UMD to PSP and its future *spinoff

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I'm sure devs are. They want their games to keep selling as much as publishers do. They don't make the game for themselves.

Devs make games for publishers. The publishers care about sales, and as I already said, if the publishers can keep selling their games they don't care if it's through emulation (or wrappers) or through the code running on the hardware.

That and BC would mean like the Wii, PSP2 would be as easy to develop for as it's predecessor meaning no developer learning curve/period of adjustment

There's always a learning curve so long as you are pushing boundaries and using new tools. Nintendo re-used the GC hardware because their major selling point was the user interface. Unless Sony can guarantee a similar utterly unique revolution in gaming for the PSP2 (and the iPhone has already brought fast 3D and touch screen gaming to the masses) they might want to think about more than simply going with a rebadged PSP Go.
 
how are they pissing away their investment?
so if my blu-ray player can read memory sticks

Memory stick can play the same quality video as UMD though.
Good luck with that playing a movie in bluray quality.

If Sony really wanted to sell UMD, they wouldnt have given a free alternative.

multi-UMD games full of what? cutscenes? oh, those surely prove your point.

1) Yes they would. Again, see the lumines example. It's not up to you to decide if its well used or not.
2) No they aren't full of cutscenes. One is a baseball game.

apropos, what are those 'media optimized controls' that the psp is missing?

I mean play/pause/etc, all the buttons you'd find on a remote.

lapse of logic much? why would the first processor do nothing? i said ME was used for media playback alone - what the first CPU does at that moment was not covered by my statement.

Except during media playback, there'd be no need for the other CPU to do anything. PSP doesn't exactly multitask, except up until very recently with MP3s and photos. And they wouldnt spend all that extra money on a feature they had no intention of using for years

Dont talk to me about lapses in logic while trying to claim PSP was made for media before gaming

tell you what, instead of repeating you line ad infinitum, why don't you direct me to the place in the psp sdk that indicates games 'can use ME to handle anything they would on the CPU'.

http://forums.ps2dev.org/viewtopic.php?t=11662&sid=cba02857416ca7fc7216d67f615e9233

Yes you can run your own code on the ME. Search for crazyc's sample.

http://www.psp-programming.com/tutorials/c/lesson05-2.htm

The second parameter is the Media Engine. Last I checked, you could only run MIPS Assembly code on this processor.

http://www.qj.net/psp/homebrew-development/psp-media-engine-accessed.html

Crazyc from ps2dev forums has released a sample code that actually uses the PSP's Media Engine! The sample released runs a counter using the PSP's media engine as a second CPU. This is the first publicly available media engine code anyone has made availabl

http://www.dcemu.co.uk/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=79063

Another problem is that although the ME is essentially the same processor as the main core, it has a different memory map.


indeed, how convenient for you to dismiss the wipeout comparison as 'irrelevant'.

Howso? subjective quality of the game is not what we're discussing, especially your opinion on which game is better or not. And given that I've played neither game I can't agree nor disagree.

Pokemon Gold is better than Pokemon Diamond in my opinion, that doesnt mean devs should go from 128 megabytes down to 8.

for somebody who uses terms liberally (BIOS?)

Eh? I only used that to say what PS2 uses PS1's processor for, that's exactly what it's used for, what term would you have me use?

You asked me for proof, you provide some of your own. Show me PSPs GPU has a HAL. Cause what I've been told is the opposite.
 
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The publishers care about sales, and as I already said, if the publishers can keep selling their games they don't care if it's through emulation (or wrappers) or through the code running on the hardware.

True, however software emulation would require hardware many times more powerful than PSP, and that would use a lot more battery power, etc. It's not feasible any time soon.

There's always a learning curve so long as you are pushing boundaries and using new tools.

True, however it would be small, like the change from 222 MHz to 333 MHz was.
They already know how to code for it, they just have a bigger box to play in.

Unless Sony can guarantee a similar utterly unique revolution in gaming for the PSP2 they might want to think about more than simply going with a rebadged PSP Go.

They could. I'm hoping Sony adds stereo 3D to PSP2. There are 5 inch ones that dont require glasses and would be perfect for a handheld, since both require the user to be a certain distance/angle from the screen.
 
Memory stick can play the same quality video as UMD though.
Good luck with that playing a movie in bluray quality.
sorry to bring it to you, but JVC XV-BP1 supports playback of h264 High Profile, level 4.1, from user-prepared media (usb, burnt disks, etc). here's the manual.

If Sony really wanted to sell UMD, they wouldnt have given a free alternative.
huh? sony did a massive push for UMD video during the first year of psp's life. you could buy quite a few things on UMD, including rare stuff (Chan Wook Park's UMD on the shelf right in front of me waves at you). yes, eventually 3rd-party support for the medium died out, but the initial push was huge.

1) Yes they would. Again, see the lumines example. It's not up to you to decide if its well used or not.
2) No they aren't full of cutscenes. One is a baseball game.
1. it's up to their customers to decide, and i'm one of them.
2. which one is that?

I mean play/pause/etc, all the buttons you'd find on a remote.
you mean the buttons you'd find on the psp remote?

Except during media playback, there'd be no need for the other CPU to do anything. PSP doesn't exactly multitask, except up until very recently with MP3s and photos. And they wouldnt spend all that extra money on a feature they had no intention of using for years
what? are you making up this shit as you go or do you actually believe that crap? ME has been used in the psp since day one. in parallel with the CPU. and ME handles AV tasks alone. that's what sony meant it to do.

oh dear. what left you with the impression i was speaking of homebrew? and yes, i'm well aware one can run custom code on the ME under homebrew. but as you put it eloquently, sony sdk =/= homebrew.

Howso? subjective quality of the game is not what we're discussing, especially your opinion on which game is better or not. And given that I've played neither game I can't agree nor disagree.
i did not say anything about one game being better than the other. that was sarcasm on my part; i even marked it as such. both games are quite comparable in terms of gameplay, volume of playable content, sound quality, etc. one of them does not have FMV (and and endless heap of live recorded BGM), though. guess which one.

Eh? I only used that to say what PS2 uses PS1's processor for, that's exactly what it's used for, what term would you have me use?
BIOS is software. the MIPS3K in the PS2 is used as an IO processor (outside of BC mode). claiming that said chip is the BIOS is like saying that your CPU is your kernel, since the kernel runs on your CPU.

You asked me for proof, you provide some of your own. Show me PSPs GPU has a HAL. Cause what I've been told is the opposite.
libgu an its successor sceePspGu. the latter one actually supersedes several early libs, libgu being one of those.
 
True, however software emulation would require hardware many times more powerful than PSP, and that would use a lot more battery power, etc. It's not feasible any time soon.

Hardware many times more powerful is what we expect though.
It's probable we won't see BC, but it's not out of reach - they'd need to use MIPS cores again, and have edram in the GPU again. Run CPU code natively, and use some sort of wrapper to do rendering on the new, DX9+ level GPU.

A problem with that is ARM is what you use for high performance nowadays. PSP uses a MIPS core with an architecture dating back to the early 90's ?? (they say it's based on R4000. the R4000 came out in 1991 :)).
 
sorry to bring it to you, but JVC XV-BP1 supports playback of h264 High Profile, level 4.1, from user-prepared media (usb, burnt disks, etc).

I wasn't clear, I meant the memory stick large enough to fit the movie would be prohibitively expensive.



I'm saying if UMD was invented just for movies/movies first as you said, they wouldn't have provided a free alternative which detracts from UMD sales

1. it's up to their customers to decide, and i'm one of them.

I disagree completely, it's up to the devs not you. Just cause you feel it wasnt used well doesnt make it so.

But lets say it is up to the fans for the sake of argument. People who do feel it was used well, do make it so and I say they used it well based on CD quality sound alone.

2. which one is that?

I cant recall the name but other multi-UMD games:
DJ max
Legend of Heroes VI: Sora no Kiseki Second Chapter
Eiyu-densetsu-6 Second
Clannad.

what? are you making up this shit as you go or do you actually believe that crap? ME has been used in the psp since day one. in parallel with the CPU. and ME handles AV tasks

Yes
Do I believe the crap from actual developers who have made software I use and some of which I'm friends with? yes.
Do I believe the crap coming from you? No.
You are not more credible, so don't try to claim they are wrong.


No.

oh dear. what left you with the impression i was speaking of homebrew? and yes, i'm well aware one can run custom code on the ME under homebrew.

And official devs can too

but as you put it eloquently, sony sdk =/= homebrew.

I don't recall saying that.

i did not say anything about one game being better than the other. that was sarcasm

So then it's agreed that it's irrelevant

both games are quite comparable in terms of gameplay, volume of playable content, sound quality, etc. one of them does not have FMV (and and endless heap of live recorded BGM), though. guess which one.

So? Are you claiming since NES games were made without 3D, or more than 64 colors all other games should be too? The bar is not measured by the lowest performing game but the highest.

BIOS is software. the MIPS3K in the PS2 is used as an IO processor (outside of BC mode). claiming that said chip is the BIOS is like saying that your CPU is your kernel, since the kernel runs on your CPU.

I'm not saying you're right, but assuming you were, how is it relevant?
It's not the basis of any of my claims. And let's say I got BIOS confused for I/O processor, it's still used in both PS1 and PS2 modes which was my point. The purpose being irrelevant to my point.

I'm still waiting for your proof on the HAL. Cause I've even checked with one of my developer friends and they said there isn't one, and laughed. Google shows nothing as well.
 
Hardware many times more powerful is what we expect though.

True, but they dont make portable hardware powerful enough to emulate PSP yet.
New hardware (ie: smartphones/iphone/ipad) averages 1 GHz. Netbook processors while being hardware wouldnt be able to do it as they are too general purpose.

It's probable we won't see BC

I doubt it. Sony's history indicates BC will be present. And it's not competing in a vacuum. DSi/ipad had BC, Sony starting from scratch when trolls already complain PSP doesnt have enough games would be suicide. Plus I'm absolutely certain Sony would like to keep selling everything on the PSN to new customers. And BC is nigh useless (and a slap in the face to most PSP owners) without UMD, given the amount of games on UMD vs PSN
 
True, but they dont make portable hardware powerful enough to emulate PSP yet.

So far I'm quite amused at the endless quote orgy, but that sentence is so ridiculous it's not funny anymore.

New hardware (ie: smartphones/iphone/ipad) averages 1 GHz. Netbook processors while being hardware wouldnt be able to do it as they are too general purpose.
Well maybe just maybe neither frequency by itself nor just CPU speed/efficiency is the be all end all for a handheld gaming device. SONY's next generation handheld isn't going to appear anytime soon but you should maybe consider that there will be soon enough dual core A9 CPUs even in smartphones soon. The iPhone3GS (smartphone) or the iPad (tablet PC or fancy e-book reader) aren't exactly comparable to a handheld console either.

But if it really has to be it's rather the PSP that would have a bloody hard time to emulate any content an iPad or iPhone3GS could process and not the other way around.


I doubt it. Sony's history indicates BC will be present. And it's not competing in a vacuum. DSi/ipad had BC, Sony starting from scratch when trolls already complain PSP doesnt have enough games would be suicide. Plus I'm absolutely certain Sony would like to keep selling everything on the PSN to new customers. And BC is nigh useless (and a slap in the face to most PSP owners) without UMD, given the amount of games on UMD vs PSN
You shouldn't be too certain about future aspects just because eating a hat in due time isn't the most pleasant thing either (all in a metaphorical sense always). SONY knows better than you or I what they really want or what they are planning and no they haven't officially revealed yet what their plans exactly are. However I'll keep a bookmark for this thread when SONY actually does.
 
PSP games will be sold as DD for PSP2 over PSN and will be made possible by the combination of a Sony emulator plus developer tuning/polishing/QA.

The GPU of PSP2 will easily handle the emulation of the PSP's GPU, with great improvements, and without needing eDRAM.
 
I wasn't clear, I meant the memory stick large enough to fit the movie would be prohibitively expensive.
bullshit. you said: 'Good luck with that playing a movie in bluray quality.' and i showed you XV-BP1 does exactly that. as about flash cards, last time i checked the usb mass-storage protocol was not limited to flash cards alone. you should check out these external hdd's some day, they're a great.

I'm saying if UMD was invented just for movies/movies first as you said, they wouldn't have provided a free alternative which detracts from UMD sales
the free altermative was handicapped for a long time - it could not play UMD-bitrate movies from the MS until fw 3.70, just because sony were trying to push UMD movies into wide adoption. your psp developer friend should have told you at least that.

I disagree completely, it's up to the devs not you. Just cause you feel it wasnt used well doesnt make it so.

But lets say it is up to the fans for the sake of argument. People who do feel it was used well, do make it so and I say they used it well based on CD quality sound alone.
says the person who has not played either wipeout or ridge racer.

I cant recall the name but other multi-UMD games:
DJ max
Legend of Heroes VI: Sora no Kiseki Second Chapter
Eiyu-densetsu-6 Second
Clannad.
1. DJ max is not a multi-disk game. it just has the Link Disc feature that allows the game to read the tracks from other versions.
2. Clannad is basically an interactive video novel.

that leaves us with LoH4 and Eiyuu-densetsu - two typical JRPGs where devs knock themselves silly with cutscenes. for the sake of your argument, i suggest you try to remember the name of that baseball game.

Yes
Do I believe the crap from actual developers who have made software I use and some of which I'm friends with? yes.
Do I believe the crap coming from you? No.
You are not more credible, so don't try to claim they are wrong.
i doubt an actual developer would say that ME and allegrex 'cannot multitask'. here's a little 'pro-tip' for you: go into the xmb music menu of your psp, press play on a tune, press 'home' button - watch ME and the CPU miraculously work together. that functionality has been there since day one. a developer could not be as clueless as to claim some of the things you have in this thread, so don't try to present yourself as 'the voice of developers', please.

and re the whole 'my dad said' - i have the sony sdk on my desktop. you refer to somebody on a forum. that's no way to have an argument. if you sources do not know about libgu (reversed engineered and widely used for homebrew for many years now) that's their own problem. and i see no point trying to play 'broken telephone line' with somebody via you. learn your facts or stay out of tech arguments.

And official devs can too
see, here's where you'd quote a statement from sony's sdk. in a PM, if you felt that'd break somebody's NDA.

The level of debate here is bickering. This thread is very close to being closed.
sorry for the inconvenience for having to spawn this thead, Shifty. i'm done for today with this, erm, argument, even though calling it an argument is a stretch.
 
bullshit.

And yet you apologized for the level of bickering later in your post, but you start with that

you said: 'Good luck with that playing a movie in bluray quality.

Yes. And I said I wasn't clear, and then gave my reason

and i showed you XV-BP1 does exactly that. as about flash cards, last time i checked the usb mass-storage protocol was not limited to flash cards alone. you should check out these external hdd's some day, they're a great.

I own 2 terabyte external drives, but PS3 doesnt support NTFS/files bigger than 2 GB making HD playback annoying.

Though Im sure I specified memory sticks

the free altermative was handicapped for a long time - it could not play UMD-bitrate movies from the MS until fw 3.70, just because sony were trying to push UMD movies into wide adoption. your psp developer friend should have told you at least that.

I knew about that, but my PSP developer friend is a PSP developer, not a media fanatic.
And it was crippled by the code they used (from cell phones), not on purpose. We were able to work around it since day 1

says the person who has not played either wipeout or ridge racer.

So? You havent played every game with cd quality sound or FMV yet you're trying to claim they are both useless in any case.

1. DJ max is not a multi-disk game. it just has the Link Disc feature that allows the game to read the tracks from other versions.
2. Clannad is basically an interactive video novel.

1. I didnt play them, I just googled for multi disc games.
2. All you've done is prove the FMV is crucial to the gameplay like the cd quality music in lumines

that leaves us with LoH4 and Eiyuu-densetsu - two typical JRPGs where devs knock themselves silly with cutscenes.

Prove it if you're going to whine about it then.

i doubt an actual developer would say that ME and allegrex 'cannot multitask'

They didn't. Dont attribute all my statements to other devs. The only statements I've got from other devs is there is no HAL on the GPU, and the second processor runs code just like the first.

I didnt say ME/allegrex dont multitask, I said PSP isnt. When media is playing, its only playing media and nothing else, up until recently when they let photos and music play at the same time

. here's a little 'pro-tip' for you: go into the xmb music menu of your psp, press play on a tune, press 'home' button - watch ME and the CPU miraculously work together.

Protip, that's not really multitasking since up until recently, any time you clicked an item in the XMB it would stop playing. I've made a small PSP game before that played music and the game at the same time on the main CPU, the second processor isnt needed for it.

Protip, I already included when it does multitask. It's not a protip if I've said it.

and re the whole 'my dad said'

I didnt say that. Though your lack of actual evidence is worse.

if you sources do not know about libgu (reversed engineered and widely used for homebrew for many years now) that's their own problem.

I didnt say they didnt know about it. I said that doesnt prove there is a HAL. Nor could any wrapper. Wrappers tell me they are optional to the dev. HAL is not.

learn your facts or stay out of tech arguments.

And yet you apologized for the level of bickering later in your post, but you continue with that

see, here's where you'd quote a statement from sony's sdk. in a PM, if you felt that'd break somebody's NDA.

If I had an NDA to break, it wouldnt be worth it to PM you anything.

But you're right, this isn't an argument. You think you can decide for every PSP owner/dev that CD quality music and FMV are a waste of space for no reason. And ask for evidence without giving me any.
 
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blazkowicz said:
They did release a "MD data" format, broken by design (incompatible with audio minidisc) and almost never used - I learned about it by searching on the internet.

Too bad your internet skills failed you with regards to this statement;

blazkowicz said:
Sony made an ever bigger mistake in the 90s, by insisting Minidisc stays proprietary an no one is allowed to make them.

I'm seeing an awful lot of non-Sony Minidisc recorders and players

darkblu said:
btw, one could ask why sony did not deem necessary to put a full-length MS slot (or two) in the psp, given the difference between the two is solely in the length of the housing slot; the physical, electrical and logic interfaces being identical.

Probably because just like the cameras at the time, it made more sense to standardize towards DUO in small devices to allow them some headroom for form-factor reduction. Plus it helped stimulate the sales of the DUO form factor (which has been Memory Stick's most popular form factor).

Also I'd avoid the whole ultra-proprietary moniker for UMD as well considering it was a published spec within 6 months of it's release.

NeoTechni said:
I doubt it. Sony's history indicates BC will be present. And it's not competing in a vacuum. DSi/ipad had BC, Sony starting from scratch when trolls already complain PSP doesnt have enough games would be suicide. Plus I'm absolutely certain Sony would like to keep selling everything on the PSN to new customers. And BC is nigh useless (and a slap in the face to most PSP owners) without UMD, given the amount of games on UMD vs PSN

There's a couple of flaws in the argument;

1.) You're assuming Sony is exactly the same as it was back in '04/'05. It's not. Management has changed, staff have changed, priorities have changed. So while history may illustrate one thing (and in reality there's not enough history to make the assumption), the fact of the matter is that the company is quite different now than it was then and decisions made about hardware then may not be made now.

2.) Backwards compatibility is not useless w/o UMD. PSP also played back PSOne games, and it didn't have a CD-ROM drive. The point being, that backwards compatibility with a physical media is costly and not terribly profitable. PSN games OTOH will continue to be more profitable and can be patched on a case by case basis for compatibility.
 
Probably because just like the cameras at the time, it made more sense to standardize towards DUO in small devices to allow them some headroom for form-factor reduction.
ok, fair enough. do you btw, know anything about the fate of the read-only MS variation sony were talking about before launch? did anything from that ever reach market?

Plus it helped stimulate the sales of the DUO form factor (which has been Memory Stick's most popular form factor).
i guess it did, though the use of DUO in a full-size slot is practically seamless, so DUO would not have suffered much from a full-sized slot in the PSP, as long as sony were pricing DUO favorably.

Also I'd avoid the whole ultra-proprietary moniker for UMD as well considering it was a published spec within 6 months of it's release.
now that's news to me - thanks. btw, the ultra-proprietary moniker was bad wording on my part. i meant it in the same sense as 'brand-new media format we bet the farm on for some of our devices'.
 
Why go disc? You can get a 4GB SD card which has 4* the transfer rate for $8 retail on Newegg. Wholesale bulk prices would like be less than $4 and you can get a compact flash card for $80 retail which has 25MB/S transfer rate so wholesale in bulk would be much less and embedded would be a little faster too.
 
Plus will it be needed at that size? I expect 2GBs to cover the first few years of next-gen handheld storage requirements. Carts will be affordable at that price. They won't be as cost effective as pressed discs, but they will be cheap enough and with the other advantages, there's no reason not to use them.
 
Plus will it be needed at that size? I expect 2GBs to cover the first few years of next-gen handheld storage requirements. Carts will be affordable at that price. They won't be as cost effective as pressed discs, but they will be cheap enough and with the other advantages, there's no reason not to use them.

With digital downloads they wouldn't even need a pressed disc per game sold which would lower the cost per title substantially. Though I wonder when the best time to release a PSP2 would be as Apple are eating them alive with their iRange of portable media players and the DS2 may not give them an advantage in performance or as much as they'd like anyway.
 
There's a couple of flaws in the argument;

1.) You're assuming Sony is exactly the same as it was back in '04/'05.

True, no argument with your point

2.) Backwards compatibility is not useless w/o UMD.

True, but I said nigh useless.
Most PSP games are not available on PSN, if you're going to have BC it makes sense to support the majority of games, otherwise why have it at all? It'd be a waste.

Also, 75% of the world doesnt even have broadband, itd be suicide to abandon physical mediums.
Music and videos havent, Sony has gone on record as saying they dont feel games will go download only anytime soon either

PSP also played back PSOne games, and it didn't have a CD-ROM drive

PSP is over 10 times as powerful, with over 10 times the RAM.
It's doubtful PSP2 will have that large of an advantage over PSP

Though PSP isn't really considered backwards compatible with PS1.
Unless you count the ability to rip PS1 discs on CFW.

Why go disc? You can get a 4GB SD card which has 4* the transfer rate for $8 retail on Neweg

Well, $4 is still like 3 times the cost of UMD.
Swapping those things is a pain.
Given the Go, it's likely Sony will try to screw us over and force us to use micro memory stick (and that damned docking port)

I expect 2GBs to cover the first few years of next-gen handheld storage requirements

I don't. We're at that this gen, and next gen will only get large.



Also for Darkblu, I guess I wasnt clear again. Regarding me using an unnamed dev, I'm implying you saying I'm wrong isn't really evidence of a HAL on the GPU, no more than me using my dev friend who asked not to be involved in this. You made the claim HAL is present, back it up.
I'd like to see some evidence. You telling me libgu is the sequel to another lib is not proof. It being a wrapper is not proof, it is proof it's not a HAL.

About your comment on sending NDA protecting info via PM, that option is available to you.
 
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I rather hope that the PSP2 has PS2 emulation.

I'd like to see PS2 emulation come to the PSN Store and be available for the PS3 and PSP, just like they have done with the PSOne catalogue.

I wonder if Sony have been dragging their feet on PS2 emulation on the PS3 because this is going to be one of the main draws of the PSN subscription service.

IMHO PS2 catalogue is the Jewel in the Crown of the Sony's gaming business. If they want to remain competitive in the handheld space, they need to use this to their full advantage.
 
I rather hope that the PSP2 has PS2 emulation.

I'd like to see PS2 emulation come to the PSN Store and be available for the PS3 and PSP, just like they have done with the PSOne catalogue.

I wonder if Sony have been dragging their feet on PS2 emulation on the PS3 because this is going to be one of the main draws of the PSN subscription service.

IMHO PS2 catalogue is the Jewel in the Crown of the Sony's gaming business. If they want to remain competitive in the handheld space, they need to use this to their full advantage.

The longer they wait the less the library is worth though. Many of these games are already getting very dated and if they wait almost as long as the PS2 generation in a chronological sense they will soon be a couple of generations old.

@Topic:

Consoles aren't designed to be catering to the needs of 5-10% of game concepts which might use one feature or another. There has never been a console in which every developer is fully satisfied with everything the console or handheld offered. Just because some games might use more space or need a faster CPU doesn't mean that it will be implemented, its a balance of price and convenience for consumers.

Now Sony has to balance the needs of previous PSP customers, people who want a PMP and anyone new to the gaming system. Everyone wants long battery life, a large screen and good internal storage so something has to give. In this case it could very easily be the UMD player as a standard component. It drives up the cost for the 2nd and 3rd group of people whilst shortening battery life for everyone when its used. They could easily sell people an addon to rip the games onto a PSP2, perhaps charging people $5 each per license.
 
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