Technological discussion on PS3 security and crack.*

[Xenus]

It can block the check all it wants but Sony can set it so it needs a response that only a later firmware will know and still cause it not to run the game. A no response is the same as a bad response in this case.

This hack is not that great being that they ripped off Sony to do it. Sony will know the ins and outs of the process. So unless they they did something really stupid to compound their present stupidity this hack should be contained pretty quickly with a few pirates having it but nothing on the account of 30-40 million that eastmen threw up there.

 

[Npl]

From what I gather it installs a program that is non-removable unless early reports are completely wrong. That would be a dead giveaway.

So far the downloaded program might only lack an UI-Option for removal, but it should be technically possible to remove it (if it was able to install it in the first place). A simple update, or a homebrew could do the trick.
And regarding installed games/programs on the HDD - just format/replace it before carrying your broken PS3 to a repair center??? Its that easy.

 

[corduroygt]

Oh, hang on...it creates the backup games folder. If deleting all the games doesn't remove that, it's a giveaway! Then yeah, they could void warranty for those who've used the hack, but then again the savings on games will still make it more economical to buy a new PS3 rather than seek a repair and buy gamea legit, so this action wouldn't materially affect the pirates.

Or they could just format their PS3 hard drive before sending it for repair...

 

[messyman]

From what I gather it installs a program that is non-removable unless early reports are completely wrong. That would be a dead giveaway.

Once it's installed it cannot be uninstalled.

 

[obonicus]

Or they could just format their PS3 hard drive before sending it for repair...

That presupposes that your PS3 is working to some degree before it's sent to repair. We're seeing early-stage software, probably with no option to delete the applications. Maybe later on it'll allow you to delete games, but so far it doesn't seem to give you that choice.

Of course, you can simply not send the HDD to the repair shop anyway. I do wonder, can repair shops install the latest firmware? I mean, is it legal to do so? I imagine it's hard to test if the only functionality of a PS3 is working if you can't sign into PSN.

 

[grandmaster]

Eh? the program it installs is just like a demo from PSN. You should be able to delete it the same way you'd delete a demo. The manager can also delete the backups and it dumps stuff into a pre-existing (albeit invisible to the user) folder.

Guess a lot of this stuff can't be tested until the whole package is out in the wild.

Nothing to stop you formatting the HDD any way.

 

[Xenus]

I don't think pirates would even send it in for repair. They'd likely try to fix it themselves as sending it in for repair means they are likely to get it back with a new FW that blocks what they were doing.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Or they could just format their PS3 hard drive before sending it for repair...

True. It's still a drop in the ocean though, and not a path Sony are going to turn to in order to discourage pirates! They need to actually lock this thing out in a future system update. They could also potentially lock out older firmwares from going online if they can't identify a hacked console directly. That then limits the pirates to old games, no online, which is quite substantial. Perhaps they could even patch existing games to require a later firmware, or if they find an easy rejigging of existing titles so the assumed on-the-fly module replacement doesn't work, patch out older titles to change the structure and mess up the hack.

 

[obonicus]

Even if an easy fix exists, they're not going to patch existing games. Even for upcoming games; can they change their certification requirements to require firmware xx for games that are already under development? Unlike all of the other 'mandatory' things, this is in each developer's best interest.

 

[corduroygt]

Let's not forget that PS3 slims only have 16MB of NAND flash, so they only store the bootloader portion of the ~200MB firmware.

 

[grandmaster]

A quickfix solution to stop the games being circulated on the internet is to include a 4GB+ file on the BD that the main executable occasionally checks. External dumps can only be transferred onto a FAT32 drive, so the file would be corrupted and checks wouldn't validate.

My thoughts on how this will play out - Sony will issue a firmware update that will nullify the hack within days of this thing going global, causing the hackers to need to reverse the new update.

In the meanwhile, unsigned code can't be run that might interfere with PSN. By the time a patch for the USB dongle appears, Sony will have had time to add many more layers of security to their next update.

I reckon that this thing is $150 is for two reasons - firstly to make hay before the clones come along, and secondly because it may well be the most short-lived hack ever made.

 

[nightshade]

Btw should this be even called a "hack" ?

 

[DieH@rd]

A quickfix solution to stop the games being circulated on the internet is to include a 4GB+ file on the BD that the main executable occasionally checks. External dumps can only be transferred onto a FAT32 drive, so the file would be corrupted and checks wouldn't validate.

There is already few games that have single file with >4gb size, and those games can be copied without any problems to the internal ps3 hdd. Backup Manager will not allow copying those games on external fat32 anyway.

Btw should this be even called a "hack" ?

It allows us to do things that Sony doesent want us to do. Its a hack.

Spoiler

[with a nice sizeable portion of "backdoor entrance" and "theft"]

 

[Shifty Geezer]

There is already few games that have single file with >4gb size, and those games can be copied without any problems to the internal ps3 hdd. Backup Manager will not allow copying those games on external fat32 anyway.

Piracy will only really be a problem if pirate can download rips and copy them onto PS3. If a game won't fit onto the external FAT32 drive, they can't be copied to the internal HDD. This would limit piracy to sharing and directly ripping disks.

It allows us to do things that Sony doesent want us to do. Its a hack.

Actually it's thing Sony wanted to do, as it were, only being repurposed. In terms of historic hacks, this looks to be one of the wettest ever and not something the originators can be especially proud of, unless they've done some incredible reverse engineering to repatch mods. Which is unlikely, as the SDK is available.

 

[grandmaster]

There is already few games that have single file with >4gb size, and those games can be copied without any problems to the internal ps3 hdd. Backup Manager will not allow copying those games on external fat32 anyway.

Which is why I said "circulating on the internet"...

 

[-tkf-]

If what is known is true, then Sony can easily fix this by updating the firmware and basicly remove the hooks that makes the USB boot. It will however make things alot harder for repair centers and developers.

So i guess they will update the firmware, by just removing the hooks that lets it boot from the USB key.
The challenge will then be to create a new way of fixing firmwares and then create yet another firmware.

Those that keep the firmware un patched should be able to keep on using the USB key, since i guess it should be possible to upgrade the firmware on the USB key?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

So i guess they will update the firmware, by just removing the hooks that lets it boot from the USB key.

The booting order is in the BIOS. As grandmaster says, USB boot of this device has priority as a fix in case a firmware update gets corrupted and kills the PS3. If you are reliant on a firmware to boot to enable you to fix the firmware, a dead firmware stops you ever fixing a dead firmware! So the PS3 always boots first off this repair dongle to enable repairs to install a fresh firmware over the corrupted one of a returned PS3 in for repair.

This can only be addressed with a BIOS update. Androvsky thinks there's precedent for this, but for all we know network boot was enabled in the BIOS from day one but the mechanics not imlemented until later in firmware. Whether a firmware update can actually flash the BIOS, we don't know, though that'd have been a good thing to add!

 

[NathansFortune]

I think androvsky is correct in stating that all PS3 hardware can be flashed. Carl B could probably confirm for us, but I think that was part of what Sony were touting as to how good their security would be. I also seem to remember it coming out again when the 360 DVD drive got hacked that the PS3 BD drive and all other hardware could get reflashed to prevent it.

 

[Xenus]

Even if the boot order can not be changed there isn't anything stopping them to my knowledge from flipping up the authentication method every so often till they find a more permanent solution.

 

[Kasersky]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-vs-psjailbreak-article

article about the jailbreak, looks like theres tidbits of new info.