The "what is a successful game?"/"are exclusives worth it?" cost/benefit thread

Laa-Yosh

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Your assessment is kinda wrong, both in that Microsoft had a far better holiday then Sony or in terms of 2010.

Microsoft has only funded two exclusive titles for this holiday season: ODST and Forza 3. Both have been quite successful at more then 4 million units sold, and in the case of ODST it wasn't even such a high budget title, using a slightly modified Halo3 engine and a shortened production schedule.
On top of this, all the multiplatform blockbuster titles have been selling quite well on the 360, generally at a higher attach ratio compared to the PS3. License fees from these sales did not require any investment from Microsoft.

Edit: hmm, it seems I've mixed up Forza 2 and 3, the newer actually did not sell as well. But it still won't have such an effect on MS's revenues as they're based on the multiplatform titles...

The PS3 only had Uncharted 2 as an exclusive, which hasn't sold that well unfortunately. Multiplatform sales are also somewhat lower, because generally the PS3 ports are slightly inferior. Also the PS3 is probably making a much bigger loss per console then the more simpler X360.

We're still waiting for the NPD data, but it's safe to assume that revenue for MS is far, far bigger then for Sony, and they're more profitable, too.


Also, I believe that the general expectations about God of War 3 are quite unrealistic on these forums as well as on others. The game's extreme violence and hardcore gameplay are discouraging for the average user and the real sales potential is quite low.
Case in point, GOW1 has sold a little more then 3 million units and GOW 2 even less - on the PS2 with more then a 100 million user base. Why does anyone expect the third game to do significantly better on a far, far smaller user base, where other high quality exclusives have also failed to reach sales of common multiplatform titles? It might turn out to be a superb game but I can't see it moving as many units as MGS4, which has also lagged behind its precursors.
And the Final Fantasy franchise has been on a constant decline as well, not to mention the upcoming X360 port which is also going to seriously eat into the PS3 version's effect on sales.

Gran Turismo 5 is the only Sony exclusive that has good sales potential and the ability to become a system seller. It can actually become the biggest hit of the year, the only serious competitor to Reach, if it can maintain the appeal of the previous games in the franchise. But it's still going to have a lot of trouble selling 10 million units without a significant explosion of the PS3 userbase.

And Sony has already spent extreme amounts of money on developing or publishing exclusive games, almost all of which have failed to sell well or push the hardware, so I don't see them doing anything but scaling back on those efforts.
What else do they have for 2010? Naughty Dog is probably not big enough to release another title this year; Insomniac might have something; Heavy Rain isn't gonna be big... and all the rest of the big names are either multiplatform or MS exclusives. Sony had better have a lot of stuff ready for E3 2010...

As for Nintendo, one look at their financials makes any worries obsolete. They're in the best position and I can't see anything changing that, not even Natal.
 
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What consitutes a "successfully selling game"? *spinoff

Not to mention that practically every PS3 exclusive has failed to reach sales expectations, except maybe for MGS4. Lair, Heavenly Sword, Killzone 2, Uncharted 2, Resistance 2, and InFamous have all been disappointments both absolutely and relative to the size of the user base.
Oh, and Little Big Planet has also failed to become the phenomenon that some people have suggested it to be.

Oh, and as a developer you're still more inclined to primarily aim for the platform that's both bigger and has higher attach rates, not to mention ease of development. The X360 is the more desired console, despite the piracy; imagine how it'd be without it.
 
Haha we're back to the PS3 doom and gloom again. I thought we'd grown out of that?

Your comments about FFXIII are completely off the mark Laa-Yosh:

Selling this December, the PS3 has a current installed base of approximately four-million units in Japan, meaning that FFXIII sold to a massive 38 per cent of the country’s PS3 owners in just one week.

That record actually matches that of Final Fantasy X, which released in July 2001. The game sold approximately 1.9 million copies to five-million PlayStation 2 consoles in the country; exactly 38 per cent.

How about Final Fantasy XII, which sold 1,764,000 copies in its first week on sale in March 2006? Square Enix’s twelfth Final Fantasy actually performed shockingly for the twenty-million strong PS2 installed base in Japan; it sold to only 9 per cent of PS2 owners on its first week on sale in the country.

http://www.playstationuniversity.co...s-if-not-better-than-ps2-final-fantasys-1824/

FFXIII did incredibly well in Japan for the installed base.

GT5 Prologue sold to over 4 million PS3 owners - a comparative demo, so there's no doubt, in Europe especially, that GT5 will blow the roof off.

Uncharted 2 has sold over the life time sales of UDF - which were at around 2.5 million. That's in just 2 months. It sold very well. Could have done better? Sure.

As for only talking about NPD, rather than the world...well the gap between the PS3 and Xbox 360 doesn't fall to 4-5 million units by the Xbox 360 outselling the PS3 in America every month now does it...(ie. there are other markets to account for). Worldwide, the Xbox 360 did poorly at the end of 2009 - it started well, outselling its sales in 2008, but even with a price cut, the sales have been lower than 2008 in the latter part of the year - and the reason is that the games weren't there. It's 2010 schedule looks MUCH better.

As for my opinion on the holiday's big sales - they will be Call of Duty, Halo Reach, Natal (and games) and Zelda Wii.
 
Microsoft - We pretty much already know them, Halo Reach and Natal. Microsoft does not even need to release anything else in order to dominate Holiday 2010.
Microsoft usually only discloses its full holiday line-up at E3 of the same year. So expect more information in May (or June?). That said, Halo:Reach, Natal and Fable 3 are already confirmed, which together cover a variety of tastes.
 
Do people actually expect Natal to make a significant impact? Unless there is a must have game that is designed for it, I just can understand all the hoopla about it.
 
Also, I believe that the general expectations about God of War 3 are quite unrealistic on these forums as well as on others. The game's extreme violence and hardcore gameplay are discouraging for the average user and the real sales potential is quite low.

GoW series has anything but hardcore gameplay! :smile:

Coming to the topic, who does well in Holiday 2010 will depend on who performs better in pre-holiday season.
 
That said, Halo:Reach, Natal and Fable 3 are already confirmed, which together cover a variety of tastes.

Then there's Alan Wake and the new Splinter Cell game, both exclusive to 360 as well, aren't they? Although they're not strictly on the holiday menu...
 
GOW is hardcore to me, and I still (would like to) consider myself to be beyond a casual gamer ;)
 
Do people actually expect Natal to make a significant impact? Unless there is a must have game that is designed for it, I just cant understand all the hoopla about it.
Indeed, without the right software its worthless imo.
 
Like Silent_Buddha points out, this thread is absurdly premature. I almost have trouble understanding the need to speculate on anything and everything.

Laa-Yosh said:
And Sony has already spent extreme amounts of money on developing or publishing exclusive games, almost all of which have failed to sell well or push the hardware, so I don't see them doing anything but scaling back on those efforts.

It doesn't really matter if the efforts fall short of expectations or they don't, so long as they make money. And the recent efforts have all been net profitable so far as I can tell. So - whether you make $1 on a title or $100M, as long as it expands the library and doesn't waste your money, I wouldn't expect Sony to scale back at all. Afterall, with all of these internal studios, might as well put them to work! ;)

I expect plenty more 1st/2nd party exclusives from Sony.
 
The reason to scale back is that they're out of money and have to cut back wherever they can. Exclusives aren't too profitable nor do they have any visible effect on the console's sales so it makes sense to cut investments on that front. Price reductions and more help to multiplatform developers are much better ways to spend SCE's budget.

Sure, we'll see GG, Insomniac and ND capitalize on their existing investments with more sequels, maybe one of them will even come up with a new IP (but it's more likely to reach back to PS2 franchises). But Factor 5 is no more, Ninja Theory went multiplatform, just as Konami, Capcom and Square. If GOW3 fails to sell well, I can actually see SCE going for layoffs...
 
The reason to scale back is that they're out of money and have to cut back wherever they can. Exclusives aren't too profitable nor do they have any visible effect on the console's sales so it makes sense to cut investments on that front. Price reductions and more help to multiplatform developers are much better ways to spend SCE's budget.

Sure, we'll see GG, Insomniac and ND capitalize on their existing investments with more sequels, maybe one of them will even come up with a new IP (but it's more likely to reach back to PS2 franchises). But Factor 5 is no more, Ninja Theory went multiplatform, just as Konami, Capcom and Square. If GOW3 fails to sell well, I can actually see SCE going for layoffs...
It will sell more than Uncharted 2 - a success for SCE in sales.

I don't think you really understand SCE's tactics for their console. People buy the PS3 because of it's joint catalogue of high quality exclusives. If they stop making them, there's no reason to buy the console. It comes down to first party and its the reason why the Slim is selling so well now. You don't sell 3.8 million in 5 weeks with no exclusives.
 
Exclusives aren't too profitable nor do they have any visible effect on the console's sales so it makes sense to cut investments on that front. Price reductions and more help to multiplatform developers are much better ways to spend SCE's budget.

I think you're missing my point - if something is profitable, even if it's not 'too' profitable - that is something which still contributes to the bottom line vs something which takes away from it. Your suggestion, lowering price for example, is obviously something which bleeds them. Game budgets are like movie budgets - you fund them based on the expectation they might be profitable. Since SCE's issue is not one of cash flow but of losses, there is absolutely no reason to cut the ongoing operations of the first party studios.

And... uh, I'm pretty sure GoW3 will "sell well." If it 'only' sells low digit millions, only you are going to be on here saying that it was a failure Laa-Yosh. :p

People buy the PS3 because of it's joint catalogue of high quality exclusives.

On this though, I think it is a minority of owners that buy it for its 'high quality exclusives.' At least the multi-plat vs exclusives sales would seem to bare this out. It doesn't have to be all one thing or the other; Sony will continue with their internal program of exclusives, those exclusives help the brand and sales, and so long as they are a net positive on the bottom line they will probably continue.
 
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The thread is premature, because a significant number of games that will sell well in 2010's Xmas season aren't yet revealed. Remember when Cevat Yerli swore to never again talk about a title more than six months in advance? Remember Gears 2 being revaled at GDC?

I'd wait at least for GDC, preferrably for E3 and whatever the former Leipzig convention is called now.
 
Do people actually expect Natal to make a significant impact? Unless there is a must have game that is designed for it, I just can understand all the hoopla about it.

I think with advertising it'll initially be a gimmik that will sell extremely well and boost Xbox 360 hardware sales more than Halo ever would (that game sells to existing 360 owners - and a second/third party game that sells 10 million units, but hardly pushes the hardware is not as valuable as a first party game that does relatively well and pushes the hardware). It'll then become more than a gimmik with good software from all publishers. I expect it to do very well and sell to consumers much better than Sony's sticks.
 
Well, how much do you expect GOW3 to sell? I can't see it pass 3 million units. Compared to the hype on discussion forums that wouldn't be too much.
 
Well, how much do you expect GOW3 to sell? I can't see it pass 3 million units. Compared to the hype on discussion forums that wouldn't be too much.

Sure, but what's wrong with 3 million? I mean that's my question to you Laa-Yosh: what is *wrong* with 3 million? If Halo 2 only sold 3 million, there would still be a Halo 3, know what I mean?
 
Well, how much do you expect GOW3 to sell? I can't see it pass 3 million units. Compared to the hype on discussion forums that wouldn't be too much.

Is hype measured on how much it's going to sell...or measured on how much people are looking forward to the game?

And since when do sales get measured against 'forum hype' - I mean this is Beyond3D...we're not subject to forum hype are we? ;)

On this though, I think it is a minority of owners that buy it for its 'high quality exclusives.' At least the multi-plat vs exclusives sales would seem to bare this out. It doesn't have to be all one thing or the other; Sony will continue with their internal program of exclusives, those exclusives help the brand and sales, and so long as they are a net positive on the bottom line they will probably continue.

Well of course it's joint, but I believe the exclusives are just as important. There are many types of consumers, looking for different things, but here's the one that I think is most prominent.

They'll see Modern Warfare 2...and will want to move up to this generation. They'll look at the Xbox 360 and PS3, and weigh the value proposition, and then what exclusives each console has. Now that the PS3 had lots of new exclusive titles in 2009, it can weigh much more heavily in the consumers mind. So a multiplatform game might have pushed them to the console originally, but the exclusive library is what will tip it one way or another. I think, anyway.
 
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Sure, we'll see GG, Insomniac and ND capitalize on their existing investments with more sequels, maybe one of them will even come up with a new IP (but it's more likely to reach back to PS2 franchises). But Factor 5 is no more, Ninja Theory went multiplatform, just as Konami, Capcom and Square. If GOW3 fails to sell well, I can actually see SCE going for layoffs...

What about Liverpool studio and the Motorstorm studio, they should have something on their plate, at least the Motorstom guys.
 
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