PS3 hardware failure

[SG79]

I'm not sure if that'll hold up over the life of the console. PS2 manufacturing defects were ironed out fairly early. So it (similar to the X360) was frontloaded in it's failures. Over the long haul though PS2 was really quite reliable after that first couple batches.

With PS3, we seem to be seeing a case where we're now seeing an increasing rate of failures as time goes on. Then again, hard to tell, as all there is to go by is forum reports. It's far enough into the life that we won't have any in depth studies done like we did early on with the X360 RROD.

Regards,
SB

I beg to differ, having seen PS2's having similar problems until mid 2003 when the very last original design was produced. Certainly beyond the first two batches, much like the 360; by mid of last year, I think the 360 is fairly reliable now compared to what it was before. Perhaps just as reliable as the PS3 and Wii.

The PS3 failures I keep hearing about, much like mine, are 60GB and 20GB units, so quality has improved over time.

However, I remain suspect of the longevity of all 3 consoles over several years. The Wii has its share of GPU failures,

 

[Nick Laslett]

My UK launch machine died on Christmas day. I performed the solder reflow YLOD fix two days later. No problem with the machine so far. The original thermal paste was nearly all evaporated and the machine was pretty dusty.

I have two more 60GB PAL PS3s, one is 26 months old, the other is 18 months old. I am going to open them both up and give them a good clean and replace the original thermal paste.

From what I read on google it would not surprise me if all launch PS3s fail within the first 3-5 years. The problem being the wear on the lead free solder caused the high running temperature of the CPU/GPU.

Well, that fix didn't last long. PS3 died again, lasted about 30 days.

We were looking at photos from a recent holiday.

Anyway, did another reflow. Back-up and running again.

I will de-activate this one and swap to my spare permanetly. Now I need to see if the UK Sales of Goods Act, which states that a product must be fit for purpose and have a reasonable life span will enable me to get a free replacement PS3, ideally one still with BC.

Also got to download all my Singstar tracks to the spare machine.

 

[Scott_Arm]

It's actually almost sad in its case, since it's extremely well designed and hindered by the inadequacies of lead free solder.

I wouldn't really make that conclusion. The difficulties of designing around lead free are known. If you end up with part failures because of thermal issues with lead free, then the problem is with the design, not the solder. Both the PS3 and 360 have design issues. There is no reason any of these consoles should die within a few years of manufacture. As they design more boards and work out their manufacturing process, it'll get better. I just think a lot of this has to do with the "manufacture cheap" mentality, which isn't going over quite as well with lead free.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Was there anything about the PS3 mobo's we've seen to suggest Sony were manufacturing on the cheap?

 

[fearsomepirate]

There is no reason that lead free solder should be as reliable, or close to as reliable as lead-tin solder given some time and experience for the manufacturers.

If the thermal expansion properties, modulus of elasticity, and fatigue limit of the current solder are different then lead-tin solder, then to the contrary, it will never be as reliable as lead-tin solder, i.e. it simply won't be reliable in as broad a range of situations. Restrictions on materials simply restrict your design choices.

There's a reason lead and tin have been used in certain applications for literally centuries.

 

[Scott_Arm]

If the thermal expansion properties, modulus of elasticity, and fatigue limit of the current solder are different then lead-tin solder, then to the contrary, it will never be as reliable as lead-tin solder, i.e. it simply won't be reliable in as broad a range of situations. Restrictions on materials simply restrict your design choices.

There's a reason lead and tin have been used in certain applications for literally centuries.

I suppose you're right, but I think it's being overstated a little. There is no reason that lead free cannot provide long term reliability. There are definitely differences in the solder properties, but with careful consideration, long term reliability is not out of reach.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Well, part of that would be because material science hasn't found an alternative, rather than because there is no better alternative. Personally I don't understand the problem with lead solder. People aren't eating these things!

It's an issue of recycling and disposal. There are areas in China where they import fresh water because landfill has poisoned the ground water.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

But you could, in theory, reclaim the solder from electronics, no? Whereas lead-free solder is saying 'this is gonna get dumped into landfill and we don't want it poisoning the water table.' If the manufacturers were also responsible for recycling, we woudln't need to lost the lead.

Although that's going way off topic! Suffice to say they are lead free, and right or wrong, manufacturer's have to work with that.

 

[Scott_Arm]

But you could, in theory, reclaim the solder from electronics, no? Whereas lead-free solder is saying 'this is gonna get dumped into landfill and we don't want it poisoning the water table.' If the manufacturers were also responsible for recycling, we woudln't need to lost the lead.

Although that's going way off topic! Suffice to say they are lead free, and right or wrong, manufacturer's have to work with that.

Yes, you can reclaim materials. Most of the PCBs that are disposed of at my work go to a recycler that reclaims metals. Unfortunately consumers have a habit of throwing their electronics in the garbage, instead of taking them in for recycling.

 

[SG79]

I wouldn't really make that conclusion. The difficulties of designing around lead free are known. If you end up with part failures because of thermal issues with lead free, then the problem is with the design, not the solder. Both the PS3 and 360 have design issues. There is no reason any of these consoles should die within a few years of manufacture. As they design more boards and work out their manufacturing process, it'll get better. I just think a lot of this has to do with the "manufacture cheap" mentality, which isn't going over quite as well with lead free.

I made that conclusion by comparing the quality of the PCB's, and general design of the heat sink etc of it and other consoles like the 360; it's a really well made console. In fact, I remember Sony doing stress tests by freezing the units and overheating them too and they passed the test. Defective 360's started popping out within a few months in comparison to what we're seeing with the PS3.

There was a 90nm Cell in those old models, and the thing acted like a small heater at times while playing games.

I hope they can work something out, or have with the slim models at least, because I don't feel like buying a console every 3 years. Or perhaps the use of lead free solder should be restricted to smaller, MUCH cooler running electronics. Neither small or cool are words I'd use to describe the PS3 or 360.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I made that conclusion by comparing the quality of the PCB's, and general design of the heat sink etc of it and other consoles like the 360; it's a really well made console. In fact, I remember Sony doing stress tests by freezing the units and overheating them too and they passed the test. Defective 360's started popping out within a few months in comparison to what we're seeing with the PS3.

There was a 90nm Cell in those old models, and the thing acted like a small heater at times while playing games.

I hope they can work something out, or have with the slim models at least, because I don't feel like buying a console every 3 years. Or perhaps the use of lead free solder should be restricted to smaller, MUCH cooler running electronics. Neither small or cool are words I'd use to describe the PS3 or 360.

Looking fancy isn't really a sure fire sign of a good design. Even if it has high board density, and the solder joints look good under visual inspection, that doesn't tell you anything about layering, routing, thermals etc. There's a lot of work done with thermal profiling and PCB layout that you could never evaluate properly just with visual inspection. I'm not sure if there are any standards that consumer electronics have to comply to for operating temperatures, but I would assume stress testing ambient temperature in the range of 0 to 40 degrees Celcius should be normal.

The fact is, neither the PS3 or 360, in their initial incarnations, were good reliable designs. They just don't last. 360 was significantly worse, but I wouldn't say the PS3 reliability is good. PCB design and manufacture is incredibly complex. Lead free is just a new obstacle. Eventually it will be understood and managed. I'm not going to pretend to be an expert, but the manufacturing process will improve greatly as engineers get a better understanding of the behaviour and properties of lead free solder.

I should be getting some exposure to lead free soldering very soon. Just waiting on my new soldering iron to arrive. I'm sure I'll have a good amount of anger and frustration dealing with the strange wetting properties.

 

[SG79]

The fact is, neither the PS3 or 360, in their initial incarnations, were good reliable designs. They just don't last. 360 was significantly worse, but I wouldn't say the PS3 reliability is good.

I've heard more of firmware related issue than actual hardware issues back then, and up until now so who knows. It's perhaps as I said, ticking time bombs and we'll see more launch units fail over the years.

As it is, I've heard of YLOD as much as I've heard of Wii GPU problems (or dots on screen as some call them), which is to say few times. But that doesn't have the same crippling effect of course.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I've moved the solder discussion here.

 

[soulchild]

Just wanted to chime in because my 60 GB european launch PS3 also YLOD'ed a couple of days ago after 29 months of moderate daily usage. I did everything I can and really took care of it (no long consecutive playing sessions, regular cleaning and so on ...) but I was already looking forward to its death because the internet is buzzing with the news of 60 GB units dying. During the last months before its death my unit's fans went full-on immediately after it was booted up - I already knew that this was the beginning of the end. I'm pretty sure that all 60 GB units are going to die eventually shortly after 2 years. Sony is definitely NOT telling the truth about the failure rate of the 60GB unit. I personally know two people whose systems died with a YLOD.
I just bought a slim and really like how quiet it is (although the fans have a barely noticeable "purring" sound to it) but it's not quite the same as my good old fat *sigh* The worst thing is that I don't know what to do with this (once expensive) piece of electronic lying around, looking as good as new but being completely use- and worthless Has anybody had any luck getting Sony to fix a YLOD after 2 years without paying the ridiculous repair fee?

 

[SG79]

During the last months before its death my unit's fans went full-on immediately after it was booted up

After some investigation, that turned out to be caused by the poor quality thermal grease used in the unit. The heat wasn't being transferred from the GPU/CPU properly so the sensor went berserk and thought the unit was overheated.

I switched to better quality (and properly applied too) grease on a friend's unit about a year ago and bam, his unit was and still is whisper quiet (both our units were actually quieter than the slim). We both got it around the same time and his still works.. mine doesn't.

It's hard for a company to gauge the defect rate on basically 3 year old units anyway, but reducing those repair fees would be nice considering they're 50% of the price of a new unit. They also give you a 90 day warranty VS the full year you get with a new unit.

 

[soulchild]

After some investigation, that turned out to be caused by the poor quality thermal grease used in the unit. The heat wasn't being transferred from the GPU/CPU properly so the sensor went berserk and thought the unit was overheated

Does this mean that the poorly applied thermal grease is not only the cause for the increased fan activity but likely for the YLOD itself (GPU/CPU overheating)? Or is this still more a matter of tin whiskers and lead-free soldering? Or in other words: Do you think that my unit would still be alive if I had applied new thermal grease? :smile:

 

[SG79]

Or is this still more a matter of tin whiskers and lead-free soldering? Or in other words: Do you think that my unit would still be alive if I had applied new thermal grease? :smile:

I think so, and I'm not sure but that certainly didn't help my unit much aside from having a quieter room for movies. I applied new thermal grease in Sept myself and my unit died nearly a month ago (1 month after the 3 year mark) with a YLOD that turned out to be a solder problem. The unit wasn't even strained for a week as it was used for movies basically.

Typically when the critical components overheat, the unit shuts off automatically and can be turned on again when it cools.

 

[-tkf-]

I had my PS3 on the "table", dried out Cooling Pasta.. useless really, replaced with something better...

European launch unit, 60GB, i would recommend everyone to do this and buy some time?

 

[Carl B]

For those that have done the solder fix and/or follow that issue closely, is it considered a semi-permanent solution, or is relapse imminent?

 

[soulchild]

I just fired up my one month old PS3 slim and the unit's fan immediately went completely bananas - winding up to a level I've never heard on any PS3 (fats included). After a couple of seconds the fan revved down, the red LED went to a constant blinking and the unit was not responding to any button presses. After unplugging and powering it on again, it came up normally.
After having lost my 60GB launch fat due to the infamous YLOD, I'm a little bit concerned that this is another one of those beginning of the end symptoms Has anyone experienced something similar yet?