Formula 1 - 2010 Season
- Thread starter Dave Baumann
- Start date
tongue_of_colicab
Veteran
06 was with Schumacher vs Alonso right? Didn't Alonso had a failure the race before Suzuka?
The point with comparisons like this is they don't tell you anything. How often didn't we see a Mclaren break down with broken engines? Or Red Bull's that don't finish because of mechnical problems. For every failure Ferrari had you can easily name failures from other teams in important stages.
I think we should just assume that teams know very well what their engines can do and I'm pretty sure they know how to manage them all season long. Afterall having 1 fresh engine vs having no fresh engine just means that the engines you already used have more milage on them than the team that already used all engines.
The engine they used this weekend was said to already done 2500km. If you consider every race is about 300km and we have 19 races than that is 5700km. As the current engine is still working you could argue that out of the 8 engines they have, you really only need 2 to finish all the races and got 6 left for quali and practice. Ofcourse it's not that easy with all the different engine settings and some tracks having a bigger impact on engine life than others but I think it's fair to say that Ferrari probably got their engine allocation well figured out.
In that case using that logic Massa was more to blame than Hamilton at Monza. Both Hamilton and Webber were up the kerb and couldn't brake in time to stop from hitting someone taking a good line around a corner.
That's the facts I'm afraid.
Check the video again, your memory might be a bit rusty on the Monza case - Hamilton only had one wheel on the kerb (and not any more than it would usually be) and plenty of room to turn more directly left without going more on the kerb, while at Singapore Webbers wheel was already going partly behind the actual kerb rather than on it.
It's actually far simpler than that: In Monza, Hamilton undercut Massa without actually being side-by-side (or ahead). In Singapore, Webber undercut Hamilton without actually being side-by-side (or ahead).
itsmydamnation
Veteran
how does someone defending thier position undercut someone else?
If the undercutting car (the one being on the inside line) can successfully get up side-by-side or even pass the car that's running on the outside into the corner. This will force the car running on the outside to run wide or lift and concede position. For this to happen though: The car running on the outside needs to see the car being there.
Example: Hamilton retaking his position against Button in Turkey. At the apex, he was wheel at wheel with Button.
In Singapore, Webber never got that far. He went into the corner at an impossible angle and didn't get close enough to force Hamilton wide. From Hamilton's camera, you can't even see Webber. If he had been a bit quicker or further up ahead, he would have easily forced Hamilton wide.
Hamilton forced him to that "impossible angle" by cutting the path even though Ham wasn't ahead yet.
He said that he couldn't see where Webber went, but here's a riddle.
He's not in front of you, you can't see him in your mirrors and you know he can't be on your right side - what's left other than your left side?
The fact you can't see him in the mirror means you haven't gotten past him yet.
He said that he couldn't see where Webber went, but here's a riddle.
He's not in front of you, you can't see him in your mirrors and you know he can't be on your right side - what's left other than your left side?
The fact you can't see him in the mirror means you haven't gotten past him yet.
No he didn't. Hamilton was merely on the racing line. You know, the same line Webber took on every single lap when he wasn't impeded by any car ahead of him - from the outside of the corner to the apex and out again.
You truly have an odd view of racing. Do you drive under the same assumption on the road (or track) that the car on the inside line regardless of actual track position is in the right, even if he his clearly behind? That's as ridiculous as saying Massa should have made room for Hamilton in Monza.
You truly have an odd view of racing. Do you drive under the same assumption on the road (or track) that the car on the inside line regardless of actual track position is in the right, even if he his clearly behind? That's as ridiculous as saying Massa should have made room for Hamilton in Monza.
No, of course not, but if you're overtaking, you have to make you're clear before you cut the other one out of track and/or force crash to you. Hamilton was not clear of Webber.
Of course he was. It's on video and on the picture I posted a page back. Hamilton was clear of Webber. Just because Hamilton stayed on the racing line and didn't shut the door which allowed Webber to close the gap again somewhat doesn't make it any different. Starting at least 300metres leading up to that corner, Hamilton was in position 3 and Webber in 4.
Even if we agree that both were fighting for position, the fact remains that Hamilton was ahead and on the racing line and Webber was attempting to re-take P3.
Even if we agree that both were fighting for position, the fact remains that Hamilton was ahead and on the racing line and Webber was attempting to re-take P3.
itsmydamnation
Veteran
if he "shut the door" it would be vettel all over again, you actual have to be atleast a car length ahead to "shut the door" , he never was and your photo doesn't prove that he was. He didn't have the line though the corner either. if webber is hard under breaks into a corner and is also moving to the left what more can he do? You might be used to people jumping out of the way for lewis but come the pointy end of the season the compitition aren't going to move out of his way, the ayrton senna tatic isn't going to work on any one in the top 5.
the funny thing is someone overtook correctly only a few laps latter, maybe you should compare the lines though the corner
webber was never attempting to retake something he hasn't lost yet, lewis never had the racing line, lewis entered the corner with more speed then webber how could webber be trying to "retake" 3rd?
the funny thing is someone overtook correctly only a few laps latter, maybe you should compare the lines though the corner
webber was never attempting to retake something he hasn't lost yet, lewis never had the racing line, lewis entered the corner with more speed then webber how could webber be trying to "retake" 3rd?
No, Hamilton had the line. It was Webber who was 15 feet off it:
itsmydamnation:
Sorry, your post doesn't make much sense... Jumping out of the way? You can only jump out of the way when you're in front. In the above case, Hamilton was in front of Webber. You might want to believe it was Webbers position but looking at the picture, it's clear who at that stage is in P3 and who is in P4. It's certainly not Webber.
I really hope I won't have to draw up lines to highlight where the racing line is or which car is in front of the other
itsmydamnation:
Sorry, your post doesn't make much sense... Jumping out of the way? You can only jump out of the way when you're in front. In the above case, Hamilton was in front of Webber. You might want to believe it was Webbers position but looking at the picture, it's clear who at that stage is in P3 and who is in P4. It's certainly not Webber.
I really hope I won't have to draw up lines to highlight where the racing line is or which car is in front of the other
Your picture in no way, ever, showed that hamilton was clear of webber.
On the autosport.com thread there are now close to 1000 posts on the matter, in the poll twice as many people blame Webber than Hamilton but that might show a Lewis bias as he is British as are most posters there??
I think it was a racing incident and Webber mostly to blame though Hamilton in hindsight no doubt have gone wider if he had known what would have happened. Anyhow, it's in the past now, slightly detuned the title race, but it could still be close!
Wouldn't it be great for top 5 to be all in with a shout at the last race!
I think it was a racing incident and Webber mostly to blame though Hamilton in hindsight no doubt have gone wider if he had known what would have happened. Anyhow, it's in the past now, slightly detuned the title race, but it could still be close!
Wouldn't it be great for top 5 to be all in with a shout at the last race!
itsmydamnation
Veteran
two more polls and two more complete different views,
http://www.crash.net/f1/poll_results/110/who_was_to_blame_for_hamiltonwebber_crash.html
http://sidepodcast.com/2010/05/30/post-race-debate-webber-or-vettel-to-blame-for-lap-41-crash/
http://www.crash.net/f1/poll_results/110/who_was_to_blame_for_hamiltonwebber_crash.html
http://sidepodcast.com/2010/05/30/post-race-debate-webber-or-vettel-to-blame-for-lap-41-crash/
