New [H] editorial...

[digitalwanderer]

As such ATI will still need to make massive inroads on teh Nvidia users but as Nvidia has the time to play catch up it may never happen.

Have you been to nVnews lately and asked around which is the best card for gaming? You won't find a whole lot of people recomending nVidia 'cept for a few SERIOUSLY fanboy types.

ATi has made inroads. nVidia is only dominating the low-end cards right now, for gaming it's ATi all the way as far as most enthusiasts go.

It's a mindset thing, remember about 5-6 years ago when the situation was reversed and ATi dominated the OEM/low-end and nVidia swept the middle-to-high end? THAT is what got nVidia into it's current position today as such a big name, the same way it's working out that ATi is taking that spot now.

One is rising, one is falling; nVidia hasn't caught up to anyone yet. I can't believe a single thing they say, so until they can put out a competative card they're just spinning their wheels.

 

[micron]

One is rising, one is falling;

In the world of technology forums.....you are right. Make no mistake about general public purchases though. Nvidia is still the name they go for....

 

[Seiko]

As such ATI will still need to make massive inroads on teh Nvidia users but as Nvidia has the time to play catch up it may never happen.

Have you been to nVnews lately and asked around which is the best card for gaming? You won't find a whole lot of people recomending nVidia 'cept for a few SERIOUSLY <bleep> types.

ATi has made inroads. nVidia is only dominating the low-end cards right now, for gaming it's ATi all the way as far as most enthusiasts go.

It's a mindset thing, remember about 5-6 years ago when the situation was reversed and ATi dominated the OEM/low-end and nVidia swept the middle-to-high end? THAT is what got nVidia into it's current position today as such a big name, the same way it's working out that ATi is taking that spot now.

One is rising, one is falling; nVidia hasn't caught up to anyone yet. I can't believe a single thing they say, so until they can put out a competative card they're just spinning their wheels.

The problem is by the time those GF4 guys and gals upgrade Nvidia will be right back on track. As I've said before, ATI could have been much more aggressive and tried to get the 9700PRO into the mainstream section. I dont believe they'd be too many GF4 owners who wouldn't upgrade to a 9700 in a flash if the price is right. At the moment though I dont believe the 9600 Pro offers enough and as the 5600 Ultra has a similiar performance the choice isn't as clear as it could have been whilst the R300 was dominating. Whats more I think the next RV360 and NV? will be extremely close again and when that happens those existing Nvidia users will have very little reason to risk the change in IHV supplier
Perhaps ATI just didn't realise how much thy had advanced over their competitors with the R300 core and thus came up with this more mild mannored and watered down approach?

 

[nyt]

One is rising, one is falling; nVidia hasn't caught up to anyone yet. I can't believe a single thing they say, so until they can put out a competative card they're just spinning their wheels.

I would say "one benefits from the other's mistake", but there's no real sign that it's a long term trend. Next gen parts will tell us who's the boss (helped by some 3dm03 scores )

 

[digitalwanderer]

The problem is by the time those GF4 guys and gals upgrade Nvidia will be right back on track. As I've said before, ATI could have been much more aggressive and tried to get the 9700PRO into the mainstream section. I dont believe they'd be too many GF4 owners who wouldn't upgrade to a 9700 in a flash if the price is right. At the moment though I dont believe the 9600 Pro offers enough and as the 5600 Ultra has a similiar performance the choice isn't as clear as it could have been whilst the R300 was dominating. Whats more I think the next RV360 and NV? will be extremely close again and when that happens those existing Nvidia users will have very little reason to risk the change in IHV supplier

I respectfully disagree. You make some very valid points, but I feel that the enthusiast who is enough into hardware to get a GF4 non-MX is gonna do just a tiny bit of research before plunking down a rather serious chunk of change for their video card.

I think that will be where/when ATi "wins". I think the next generation of products ATi has already got a BIG lead in credibility where as not many people will believe anything that nVidia says anymore without proof. (Read that as I don't think any paper launches by nVidia are going to be getting anyone very excited until they actually produce & show the working silicon. If ATi does a paper launch people will tend to believe them since they have a track record of backing up what they say. )

But again, that's just my feelings/theory/hunches and I could very well be wrong. There's also going to be a lot of things changing between then and now, 3dm2k3 is the first that comes to mind along with the UT2k3 almost-trilinear issue.

It's still a pretty murky future that is wide open for different possiblilities, I'm gonna have a lot of fun watching how it all goes.

 

[micron]

[I respectfully disagree. You make some very valid points, but I feel that the enthusiast who is enough into hardware to get a GF4 non-MX is gonna do just a tiny bit of research before plunking down a rather serious chunk of change for their video card.

Serious chunk of change?
Ti4200 = $80 dollars in store, not just online.
ATi doesnt have anything worth installing for that price, nothing even close.
Radeon 9100's are still around $100-150 bucks in stores, and you already agree'd with me @NV News that they suck compared to the Ti4200

 

[digitalwanderer]

[I respectfully disagree. You make some very valid points, but I feel that the enthusiast who is enough into hardware to get a GF4 non-MX is gonna do just a tiny bit of research before plunking down a rather serious chunk of change for their video card.

Serious chunk of change?
Ti4200 = $80 dollars in store, not just online.
ATi doesnt have anything worth installing for that price, nothing even close.
Radeon 9100's are still around $100-150 bucks in stores, and you already agree'd with me @NV News that they suck compared to the Ti4200

I think we're misunderstanding each other a bit. I was talking about people deciding to buy either the R420 or NV40, which will probably cost a bit more than that.

 

[micron]

Hmmm,
I'm talking about the general buying public. They still go for the Nvidia name.
You still have alot of work to do John

 

[digitalwanderer]

Hmmm,
I'm talking about the general buying public. They still go for the Nvidia name.

Now there is where we're just going to have to agree to disagree and time will prove one of us right and the other wrong, or else surprise us both.

 

[micron]

No no!
Time will change the statement I made silly, I'm talking about right now!

 

[digitalwanderer]

If you're talking about now, well I still choose to disagree with you.

 

[micron]

If you're talking about now, well I still choose to disagree with you.

Your in the U.S., been to Comp USA or Fry's lately?....Best Buy?

 

[digitalwanderer]

If you're talking about now, well I still choose to disagree with you.

Your in the U.S., been to Comp USA or Fry's lately?....Best Buy?

Eeew, no! I pretty much exclusively shop at either NewEgg or Pricewatch.

I get too damned pissed at the prices/lack-o-knowledge at me local brick and mortars, it's kind of pathetic.

 

[Slides]

Serious chunk of change?
Ti4200 = $80 dollars in store, not just online.
ATi doesnt have anything worth installing for that price, nothing even close.
Radeon 9100's are still around $100-150 bucks in stores, and you already agree'd with me @NV News that they suck compared to the Ti4200

Maybe the 9700 prices will also eventually go down a lot more? I don't know how prohibitive the cost is for ATI to charge less then $200 for a 9700. Many casual gamers do make there purchases in Best Buy, CompUSA.

 

[WaltC]

Walt,
From where I'm at, the market is still flooded with GeForce4's. From the lan parties I've attended in Ca., and Ok., the GeForce4 is by far the most popular and widely used video card. So even though the FX cards havent been readilly avaliable for the gamers market until recently, I think Nvidia's previous line up has helped to keep them afloat....I dunno.....

I wouldn't doubt that a bit, Micron... I was referring here to people buying so-called DX9 gaming cards. I suspect the 5200/R9000's aren't in much demand and it's the 5600/9600 + level cards that are moving for them. I'm sure nVidia has sold quite a few nv2x over the past year--nv2x has been pretty much all they've had to sell in quantity, after all.

 

[Fred da Roza]

Maybe the 9700 prices will also eventually go down a lot more? I don't know how prohibitive the cost is for ATI to charge less then $200 for a 9700. Many casual gamers do make there purchases in Best Buy, CompUSA.

Won't happen. Why would ATI have to sell a 9700 for so much less than nVidia sells a NV30/35. Anyways the 9600 is no slouch. If anything eventually goes down it will be the 9600. I expect 9700 to disappear just as soon as R360 appears.

 

[Slides]

9700 is already starting to disappear, so that's not going to be a factor for ATI but it did have a good run so I can't really complain. But ATI really doesn't have anything to compete in the price range of the Ti4200 and that's where they can gain the most market share in the shortest amount of time.

 

[Seiko]

9700 is already starting to disappear, so that's not going to be a factor for ATI but it did have a good run so I can't really complain. But ATI really doesn't have anything to compete in the price range of the Ti4200 and that's where they can gain the most market share in the shortest amount of time.

I agree and until they can drop a fire bomb into the 4200s/4400s territory Nvidia will continue to dominate the section. The 9600Pro is no doubt a good card but the 5600Ultra is very close. Ask yourself this, you've stuck with Nvidia for a whilte now, you're GF3/GF4 has served you well for the last year. You begin to wonder about your next upgrade. Both ATI and Nvidia have very similiar cards. Don't you think that you'd stick with the tried and tested formula? Same drivers, same known attributes of the card etc? I think this is ATIs problem and as such they need to drop a biggun right into the mainstream market. What ever it is it'll need the performance of the 9700 but with a midrange price point! Until then and while the benches are close I dont see many Nvidia users jumping ship? Not to mention I still dont think a 9600PRO offers enough to a gamer over either a GF3 or GF4!

 

[micron]

Well said Seiko....