New [H] editorial...

[WaltC]

Well DELL is selling more and more PCs using the 3DMark benchmark. They're also marketing Dimension PCs towards gamers too. You'd think that using marketing material based on tainted data would make DELL a little squeemish (could be false advertising? ).

I certainly think this is costing Dell money... but perhaps not enough to be worried about.

Update:
Just took a stroll through the Dell support forums... no chatter about Kyle's editorial there.

Companies can refer to 3dMk all they like--whatever trips their triggers. But that doesn't mean people are buying hardware based on 3dMk results...

I know I never have--that's never been an issue for me regarding these issues. Whether I'm buying systems or 3d cards, 3dMk doesn't figure. I find it diversionary, but that's about it. I am frankly puzzled by the importance some companies give the 3dMk benchmark results. After all, it is but one bench out of hundreds and does not exist in a vacuum.

 

[brent_anderson]

<snip>..... I don't see the need for further apology--admitting he's been set up as a dupe until now is apology enough for me.

Only if he stays "enlightened" and does not stray off the path again ,and even then it will take time* to earn the trust back.......

"Fool me one time, shame on you, fool me two times, shame on me"

Brent

*of course a little groveling would make that a really short amount of time, (hey, I also have an ego, stroke it baby! )

 

[trilobyte]

I'm glad that Kyle finally got out of his Nvidia comma and came back to reality

But what pisses me off is there's no apology from HIM. For months, he endlessly defended Nvidia, bad mouthing critics, bad mouthing those writing articles that took issue with Nvidia, bad mouthing his fans in forums.

And now, he writes with no apology with how duped he was. He's using this article to make himself out to be this "computer enthusiast leader" of sorts -- he never states how WRONG he was and how WRONG he was to criticize his own readers. Instead, the tone of his article suggest that he was behind the community all along! GAH

He should walk around with a huge sign saying "HYPOCRITE"...but at least he sees that Nvidia isn't what it's all that's cracked up to be.

 

[Oblivious]

My own take is that what really served as a bucket of cold water and brought him out of his trance was the revelation that nVidia's rejoining the FutureMark beta program. I think the allusions to the failure to fix UT2K3's trilinear was actually only a subtext to his real issue here--realizing that despite what nVidia's been assuring him of privately the company has its own agenda which does not include consultation with

I think you're underestimating the way the UT2K3 issue has played out for Kyle. He took a lot of heat for that editorial about filtering and his biggest defense was that nVidia would allow the user to select full trilinear in the next Dets. Now that they are upon us, any user can go out and see that this is not the case. This makes Kyle look naive, foolish and uninformed to his community at [H] and it makes everyone who took the opposite stance look good (at his expense).

 

[digitalwanderer]

Unless proven wrong, I'll take this article at face value and believe that Kyle realized what was wrong with Nvidia.
....

That's the way I take it, and I do applaud him for finally figuring out some pretty obvious things...but when I say "applause" I mean it in the sense of applauding a slow ten-year-old who's had four years of lessons but has only just managed to learn how to read his first complete paragraph...

I'm enjoying this morning WAY too much....

 

[digitalwanderer]

This makes Kyle look naive, foolish and uninformed to his community at [H] and it makes everyone who took the opposite stance look good (at his expense).

Ain't a nice, fresh dose of reality neat!

(Sorry, sorry..I'll stop.)

 

[TMorgan]

I'm glad that Kyle finally got out of his Nvidia comma and came back to reality

But what pisses me off is there's no apology from HIM. For months, he endlessly defended Nvidia, bad mouthing critics, bad mouthing those writing articles that took issue with Nvidia, bad mouthing his fans in forums.

And now, he writes with no apology with how duped he was. He's using this article to make himself out to be this "computer enthusiast leader" of sorts -- he never states how WRONG he was and how WRONG he was to criticize his own readers. Instead, the tone of his article suggest that he was behind the community all along! GAH

He should walk around with a huge sign saying "HYPOCRITE"...but at least he sees that Nvidia isn't what it's all that's cracked up to be.

That's absolutely true. He started bashing 'synthetic benchmarks' because nvidia told him that they're doing a 'disfavor to community' (sadly disfavor to GFFX is more true as synthetic stuff has been the only thing that shows 2.0 PS speeds so far). He should come through all the way and admit that it was silly to blame the tools instead of the company that deliberately went out of their way to cheat with those tools.

To me it seems more like a play than a genuine thing (altough I'm sure nvidia is not delighted either way). Nvidia will remove the trilinear thing, Kyle will be the hero of the day for [/sarcasm on] 'forcing nvidia to play clean' [/sarcasm off] and they'll be buddies again.

(sorry if my comments about Kyle seem somewhat biased against him, but he's done this kind of stunts so many times that I think that's not unjustified)

- Tom

 

[Slides]

All the witty conspiracy stories aside that some on B3D love getting into, the editorial serves it's purpose by bringing forward the issue of Nvidia and cheating to a mainstream hardware site. Better late then never. For that I say bravo to Kyle.

But do please continue the Kyle is on Nvidia's payroll conspiracy theories. They are entertaining.

 

[reever]

Its all a plot to get hits. Im sure the next PR report Nvidia sends out will be eaten up by everybody at H and once again everybody will think 3dmark is the one at fault here, not nvidia.

I wouldnt trust any of his editorials until atleast 2 weeks afterwards when you see what else happens

Its funny how everybody on the forum is treating this report as gospel like a bunch of blind lemmings

 

[Slides]

 

[Dean]

I don't think Kyle owes anyone an apology except maybe a few webmasters. Kyle was being attacked from every direction imaginable from all of us. He had a difference of opinion and we forced it out of him by making allegations and attacking his charactor. It's almost like we expected more out of him but we allowed other mainstream hardware sites to remain silent in a way to sweep Nvidia's actions under a rug.

I believe for Kyle to come this far into the game and then do a total 180 on the subject took alot of balls. Some people though just seem to be out for blood and will continually attack him even though today he has given most of us what we wanted all along. It just took longer than we had planned.

 

[demalion]

All the witty conspiracy stories aside that some on B3D love getting into, the editorial serves it's purpose by bringing forward the issue of Nvidia and cheating to a mainstream hardware site. Better late then never.

And better on-time than late. Does your catch phrase seem to add weight to these statements to you?

Maybe there is a problem with being late, and people having a problem with Kyle might have reason. Does your condescension do anything to address that?

For that I say bravo to Kyle.

OK, and some people have higher standards.

Myself, I think this is a positive step, but not making things worse anymore isn't enough for a "bravo" out of me. This in no way invalidates that your standards for positive progress can be what you want them to be, but the condemnation of others for having higher expectations seems a pretty nonsensical addition.

But do please continue the Kyle is on Nvidia's payroll conspiracy theories. They are entertaining.

I do believe your representation of "everyone else's" viewpoints as a universal is simplistic and insulting. Why do you feel your praise of Kyle can't stand without it?
I know that other theories besides the "payroll" and "conspiracy" theories are being presented, and that some of them have pretty extensive support that has been shared. Maybe you could continue that discussion somewhere else instead of insulting and baiting in this thread?

 

[Mark]

I have a feeling we're all being setup for another big PR move by nVidia... nVidia will probably make an official statement about Kyles editorial and attempt to "apologize" to the community, then Kyle will say something like "oh nVidia apologized. All is well now. Go back to buying their cards (but make sure you use the links on my page to do so! Subscribe to these magazines while you're at it!). Oh, and btw, 3Dmark03 rocks! Use it everywhere!". Then, through some crazy wormhole of reality, nVidia will once again be great, the past will be forgotten (except the Quack issue) and everything will be seen in shades of green. Horray for nVidia!

it all stinks of a big plan...

 

[digitalwanderer]

I have a feeling we're all being setup for another big PR move by nVidia... nVidia will probably make an official statement about Kyles editorial and attempt to "apologize" to the community, then Kyle will say something like "oh nVidia apologized. All is well now. Go back to buying their cards (but make sure you use the links on my page to do so! Subscribe to these magazines while you're at it!). Oh, and btw, 3Dmark03 rocks! Use it everywhere!". Then, through some crazy wormhole of reality, nVidia will once again be great, the past will be forgotten (except the Quack issue) and everything will be seen in shades of green. Horray for nVidia!

it all stinks of a big plan...

"CLANG!", says the hammer as it meets the nail just perfectly.

 

[WaltC]

I think you're underestimating the way the UT2K3 issue has played out for Kyle. He took a lot of heat for that editorial about filtering and his biggest defense was that nVidia would allow the user to select full trilinear in the next Dets. Now that they are upon us, any user can go out and see that this is not the case. This makes Kyle look naive, foolish and uninformed to his community at [H] and it makes everyone who took the opposite stance look good (at his expense).

I can see your point, but don't you think it's odd that someone would do a (14 pages was it?) multi-page article on "Trilinear Filtering in UT2K3", complete with a host of screen shots, simply on what you knew was a driver anomaly which you were told was going to be fixed in a couple of weeks? I mean, it seems like an awful lot of attention for a condition you've been told wouldn't even be relevant in a couple of weeks...

Rather, I'd suspect that if at the time you were assured this was a temporary condition you might might do a few screen shots and simply say: "Yes, it's not trilinear filtering but nVidia has assured me that owners of nVidia products will get full trilinear operability with the game in the next upcoming driver release." Also, if I made such a statement I would directly attribute it to the person at nVidia who had provided me with this information.

But from what I saw of the article it appeared as little more than a long-winded attempt to apologize for the absence of trilinear, as [H] went to great pains to demonstrate how it looked through many selective screen shots which they said subjectively looked fine to them and so the absence of trilinear wasn't really that big a deal. They further bashed people who used the game engine's native color-coded display option to reveal filtering levels by calling them "anal" something or others (please excuse me if I've confused frgmstr's forum ramblings whith the article itself.)

So why would you do all of this to defend a practice you had "been told" was only temporary? Just doesn't make sense to me...Why defend it at all, if you believe it's only temporary? What would be the point?

That's why I think what happened is that [H] defended nVidia first, and then "called on" nVidia to reinstate the option in the game for those "anal" types that had to have it. He was amazed to discover that, contrary to his belief, nobody at nVidia was listening to him, when he called on nVidia but they didn't respond and when they reentered the 3dmk03 program despite his opinions of the benchmark... I hope frgmstr realizes that the idea at nVidia was to get him to listen to them, and if pretending to listen to him was the price they had to pay, then so be it...

 

[demalion]

Well, there you go Dean, a viewpoint I disagree with, stated strongly but without baiting.

I understand where you are coming from, and I understand quite clearly the idea of "if you don't recognize someone for doing right, you work towards encouraging them to do wrong".

In that vein, I'm just going to continue my practice: discuss Kyle's past shortcoming only when they are directly relevant to something newly significant. For instance, I don't think the "nVidia PR plan" is an unreasonable theory, but it isn't the only one I see as being supported strongly by Kyle's behavior: therefore, I'm not going to spend time putting it forward.

In actuality, the continued attack on Futuremark for the (lack) of reasons Kyle has provided seems a continued and significant problem to me, but others speak on that already and I can just point to past discussion if that topic comes up, instead of continuing to comment on it. This is primarily due to the factor of Futuremark's shortcomings in communicating with consumers, and whether they can/will avoid continuing them.

But as far as reviews on [H], I think the editorial is an important step that means that each [H] review from now on won't be a new opportunity to discuss Kyle's shortcomings, both personal and as present in the standards he sets for his site based on them.
I think that will result in a reprieve from some of the continued and emphatic derision for Kyle, and I think that absence is his suitable reward for the editorial. Do you propose anything else was earned?

 

[MasterBaiter]

Oh yeah, I can see Nvidia's next PR blitz...

Kyle Bennet - The way it's meant to be played!

 

[Oblivious]

That's why I think what happened is that [H] defended nVidia first, and then "called on" nVidia to reinstate the option in the game for those "anal" types that had to have it. He was amazed to discover that, contrary to his belief, nobody at nVidia was listening to him, when he called on nVidia but they didn't respond and when they reentered the 3dmk03 program despite his opinions of the benchmark... I hope frgmstr realizes that the idea at nVidia was to get him to listen to them, and if pretending to listen to him was the price they had to pay, then so be it...

That's certainly a possibility as well although I'd be surprised if Kyle ever thought he had that much influence over nVidia. Either way, nVidia left Kyle out to dry on this issue.

 

[Doomtrooper]

And why would they not, Kyle runs a Webpage..we all know how important the benchmarks are today. Most print magazines show a few benchmarks like UT 2003 and 3Dmark.

If Nvidia is forced to used full trilinear they will lose that Benchmark, and sales...and believe it or not Nvidia is not going to 'lose' money to please Kyle

 

[WaltC]

I don't think Kyle owes anyone an apology except maybe a few webmasters.

So then you believe that what [H] started spewing back last December until today was all directed at "a few web masters" and nobody else? If you can demonstrate that you'd have a point.

Kyle was being attacked from every direction imaginable from all of us. He had a difference of opinion and we forced it out of him by making allegations and attacking his charactor. It's almost like we expected more out of him but we allowed other mainstream hardware sites to remain silent in a way to sweep Nvidia's actions under a rug.

Heh... You make it sound as if "all of us" personally attacked frgmstr without the slightest provocation. What about the websites he attacked without provocation--simply because they disagreed with his "opinions"? What about the people who frgmstr attacked because of their "difference of opinion"?

But all of that's beside the point, IMO. Frgmstr's *opinion* was attacked because he had no opinion--at least, no opinions on these issues that he could back up either intellectually or through the attribution of third parties. He admitted such today, in my view.

I believe for Kyle to come this far into the game and then do a total 180 on the subject took alot of balls. Some people though just seem to be out for blood and will continually attack him even though today he has given most of us what we wanted all along. It just took longer than we had planned.

I didn't "want" anything from frgmstr. I'm glad he finally had an epiphany and has at last reached an understanding--for his sake, I'm glad. Doesn't much affect me, though, as I had no similar problems with these issues from the start. To me, this is a lot of sentimental claptrap. Frgmstr often makes references to himself as a "journalist"--OK, fine. Perhaps now he'll start *acting* like a journalist and learn the value of attribution, and learn that stopping one's ears and closing one's mind does not a journalist make.