Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion Archive [2013]

[taisui]

read the article man!


Ecc.

You are taking one sentence out of the context. And you are not getting what the texture streaming issue looks like versus a plain texture filtering difference.

Normally we'd put this down to inferior texture filtering, but it's often the case that higher-grade ground textures never pop in during certain cut-scenes either. Best shown in the very first clip in the video, based around the O'Neill brothers' farm, the flatness of these surfaces is severe enough to prompt a retrial with two other 360s we had available. However, in every case the PS3 turns up trumps with sharper textures, proving it's not the fault of a single borked console - this is the reality for all 360 owners.
This leads to a second salient point regarding the 360 release. As it transpires, while a disc one install to the HDD is absolutely mandatory, it is also possible to install disc two - used to boot and play the game from then onwards - optionally from the Xbox dashboard. We'd advise avoiding this tactic if possible, as does Rockstar itself, despite the obvious benefits of quietening older 360s during play and saving on general wear-and-tear to the optical drive. In our experience, it increases the frequency of geometry and texture pop-in during quickly-cut cinematics, such as the pier-side railings and Ferris wheel that feature in the game's opening montage - just two examples among many. We have tried installing the play disc to a USB flash drive though and this does seem to resolve the issue.

 

[The Perculator]

You are taking one sentence out of the context. And you are not getting what the texture streaming issue looks like versus a plain texture filtering difference.

so you think it's a real graphics difference ?

 

[taisui]

so you think it's a real graphics difference ?

Take a look of what the streaming issue would look like, both images are from the 360.
http://imgur.com/KHVSMT3

What you were pointing out is the texture filtering.

Interesting, l realize that the shadows are rendering incorrectly, as if the people are floating in mid-air.
And of course they do, it's because the geometry's being streamed in, so the ground actually got higher with more detailed textures.

 

[The Perculator]

Take a look of what the streaming issue would look like, both images are from the 360.
http://imgur.com/KHVSMT3

What you were pointing out is the texture filtering.

I understand, thanks

I was right to take it for ps3

 

[JB9861]

3rd google result when you search on this website for "open world 360"

Different design goals, varying levels of talent, budget, etc. GTA V is just another contradictory piece to the debate. A top flight director like Fowler doesn't wade into the console wars. It would've been great for the curious, but the generation is over now.

 

[The Perculator]

It's strange. There are maybe 3 or 4 shots out of the entire gallery where the opposite is shown.

For example:
http://cfa.eurogamer.net/2013/articles//a/1/6/1/6/0/0/7/360_012.jpg.jpg/EG11/resize/1280x-1
http://cfa.eurogamer.net/2013/articles//a/1/6/1/6/0/0/7/PS3_012.jpg.jpg/EG11/resize/1280x-1
(looks more like a bad angle for AF in this shot)

*shrug*

MIP selection bug? Dynamic AF?

Selective AF?? it's possible?

 

[Jedi2016]

I thought AF was basically free? Every comparison I've seen that talks about the performance hits of various in-game settings always talk about putting AF at max setting regardless because it has practically zero performance hit. It's surprising that the consoles can't seem to do it at all most times. Is there some technological reason behind it? Some little bit of GPU missing from the old hardware that it just can't do AF?

 

[SlimJim]

Different design goals, varying levels of talent, budget, etc. GTA V is just another contradictory piece to the debate. A top flight director like Fowler doesn't wade into the console wars. It would've been great for the curious, but the generation is over now.

I fully understand, though I read the "ps3=only good at linear, scripted games"-sentiment on several, other websites 'during the days'. GOW3 was not impressive as well because... it was not a 3rd person shooter

Is it possible that for the 360 GTA5 version they initially targeted 1 disc, so they did not use the full resolution ground textures because they couldn't fit, and eventually after adding all the radio stations and TV shows realising 1 DVD was not enough so they put it all on 2 DVDs, forgetting to add the full resolution ground textures?

I am pretty sure that 360 should be able to render those textures, due to the superior Xenon GPU or the eDRAM, or maybe both.

 

[Laa-Yosh]

AF is definitely not free on the Xbox360, and neither is it on most other platforms, unless your shader is really computationally heavy and uses only 1-2 texture layers.

 

[warb]

Is it possible that for the 360 GTA5 version they initially targeted 1 disc, so they did not use the full resolution ground textures because they couldn't fit, and eventually after adding all the radio stations and TV shows realising 1 DVD was not enough so they put it all on 2 DVDs, forgetting to add the full resolution ground textures?

I am pretty sure that 360 should be able to render those textures, due to the superior Xenon GPU or the eDRAM, or maybe both.

The difference seems to be slower/not so well optimised streaming from the HDD, and texture filtering. Textures are the same.

Framerate is generally higher on 360, with some juddering when it strangely goes 30+. PS3 seems a tad more polished then.

 

[djskribbles]

Framerate is generally higher on the 360 version during cutscenes, but with judder. Gameplay generally favors the PS3 version.

 

[The Perculator]

I think definitively that the difference is caused by a lower AF on the 360 version. It seems like far cry 3

http://cfa.eurogamer.net/2012/articles//a/1/5/3/2/2/7/0/PS3_024.jpg.jpg/EG11/resize/1280x-1
http://cfa.eurogamer.net/2012/articles//a/1/5/3/2/2/7/0/360_024.jpg.jpg/EG11/resize/1280x-1

same disparity in GTA 5

http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/articles//a/1/6/1/6/3/1/6/PS3_110.bmp.jpg
http://images.eurogamer.net/2013/articles//a/1/6/1/6/3/1/6/360_110.bmp.jpg

 

[warb]

Framerate is generally higher on the 360 version during cutscenes, but with judder. Gameplay generally favors the PS3 version.

According to DF, the framerate comparison is a mixed bag during unscripted gameplay. Very slightly higher on 360 in general. They point out an instance where the reverse is evident.

 

[djskribbles]

According to DF, the framerate comparison is a mixed bag during unscripted gameplay. Very slightly higher on 360 in general. They point out an instance where the reverse is evident.

Yes, I missed those parts. Both have advantages in certain situations. During car chases or shootouts, the frame rate generally favors the PS3 version, but when not much is happening, it's generally higher on the 360. DF says there's hardly a difference either way, so it seems to be a wash. They seem to give the nod to the PS3 version for the textures, which seems to be a streaming issue or better filtering on the PS3 version.

 

[taisui]

Yes, I missed those parts. Both have advantages in certain situations. So how can you peg the 360 as having a better frame rate?

Quote from DF:
Performance is a mixed bag for unscripted gameplay, where each platform has its time to shine at 30fps while the other languishes at a lower rate of refresh. There's a very slight trend towards higher frame-rates on 360, but in practise this is tough to spot.

DF says there's hardly a difference either way, so it seems to be a wash. They seem to give the nod to the PS3 version for faster streaming textures and better filtering

PS3 streaming is not faster, just that when you install both discs to the 360 (you are NOT supposed to, per Rockstar), there's a streaming issue on the 360.

 

[djskribbles]

Quote from DF:
Performance is a mixed bag for unscripted gameplay, where each platform has its time to shine at 30fps while the other languishes at a lower rate of refresh. There's a very slight trend towards higher frame-rates on 360, but in practise this is tough to spot.

I edited my post above. But you left out other parts from the article.

However, it's apparent that the PS3 version has an undeniable advantage in one area: even to the naked eye, ground textures on 360 are blurred as a result of what appears to be unoptimised asset streaming. Glitch or not, this basically amounts to concrete and grass textures appearing fuzzier beneath the feet of Trevor, Michael or Franklin, while the PS3 version's remain crystal clear. The 360 does command a minor advantage in frame-rate during synchronised play, but for shoot-outs and high-speed hurtles down the city streets, the PS3 can sometimes pull ahead in these metrics - though the difference is rarely perceptible either way. Since all else is identical across the board, the PS3 version is recommended on the grounds of image quality if you have the option.

For unsynchronised play involving cop chases through busier segments of the city, it's common to see drops to 20fps on both platforms as well, though a clear performance leader is hard to parse out here. Trevor's more explosive battles with rival drug dealers in the outback areas also suffer, during which the PS3 seemingly takes an advantage despite the chaotic excess of fire and smokes effects. Ultimately, the variability of this lead shows attention has been duly paid to the strengths of the PS3 architecture, where the difference is practically imperceptible to the naked eye.

I don't see how you can say one has an advantage. DF doesn't give a clear winner. Like I said in my edit, it's pretty much a wash IMO.

 

[djskribbles]

PS3 streaming is not faster, just that when you install both discs to the 360 (you are NOT supposed to, per Rockstar), there's a streaming issue on the 360.

I edited my post and said streaming issue or a lack of texture filtering. But the DF article says the PS3 version has an advantage whether you install disc two or not.

The biggest contrast between the PS3 and 360 versions is the blurred ground textures on Microsoft's platform. Regardless of whether disc two is installed via the Xbox dash, the textures in front of the lead character suffer from a filtered look.



Seems to be better AF on the PS3 version.

 

[taisui]

But the DF article says the PS3 version has an advantage whether you install disc two or not.

There's no disc two for the ps3, it ships on 1 disc.

 

[SlimJim]

There's no disc two for the ps3, it ships on 1 disc.

The 360 has the option

 

[djskribbles]

There's no disc two for the ps3, it ships on 1 disc.

Clearly I was referring to installing both discs on the 360 version, as it was in response to your claim that the issue is pegged on installing disc two. Whether you install disc two or not, the PS3 version has an advantage in texture filtering or texture streaming. To me, it seems like better AF on the PS3 version. That's ultimately why they gave the nod to the PS3 version, otherwise they're pretty much identical all around.