Digital Foundry Article Technical Discussion Archive [2010]

[Quaz51]

congratulations grandmaster!! what a great GT5 article and how much stuff you have put in - sensational!
3D analysis is very interesting as well - so you definitively recommend to increase parallax?

Mr. Leadbetter, I salute you!

default parallax is ridiculous. it's 5mm for max positive parallax on my 50" (except for cockpit view, the FOV is different and the FOV affect parallax), induce a big depth compression (it's like the horizon was 10-15cm beyond the screen)

my 3D setting for a true orthostereosopic experience (and full depth)

Cockpit view with "very narrow" mode
Convergence: 0.9
Parallax: (size screen dependant)
65" = 6 or 7 (6 if you have a low interocular distance like 6.5cm or less, 7 if your interocular is near 7cm)
60" = 7
55" = 7 or 8 (7 if you have a low interocular like 6.5cm or less, 8 if your interocular is near 7cm)
50" = 8 or 9 (8 if you have a low interocular like 6.5cm or less, 9 if your interocular is near 7cm)
46" = 9
42/40/37" = 10

and if possible play at a distance x1 diagonal of the screen for right FOV
it's agressive but very realist (and unforgettable) experience. i played lot of hours without problem
need a good TV with few ghosting (for me VT20 with contrast 30 and brightness 20 for hide ghosting)
this will be better if we would can OFF the HUD (depth conflict with some element of the dashboard when convergence is 0.9)

for other views (not cockpit) parallax 10 for all TV size and convergence 0.70
but it isn't orthostereoscopy or full depth

edit: if it's off-board maybe you can move the post

 

[KKRT]

GT5 article is up....Nicely put article overall.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-gran-turismo-5-tech-analysis


Though I'd like to mention something, I feel that the game runs quite a bit smoother in other camera angles (most notable the hood cam & chase cam) as compared to the bumper cam. And my suspicion was confirmed after I saw the LoT framerate analysis where I saw the game drop frames whenever the person went into the bumper cam view. This is quite surprising considering that you don't have your car in view when you use the bumper cam.


EDIT: I see that the article missed giving the three display settings normal,flicker reduction & sharper a mention. Won't blame him though, the article is mammoth as it is.

I'm actually disappointed with this article, yeah standard cars, 3D and framerate talk is great, but this article really misses much. For example damage, was only made on one car and we dont know from what lvl of GT Life that was [and we know that matters] for example http://i.imgur.com/4EmsLl.jpg this damage was made on lvl 18 after few no high speed bumps [source: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=24590624&postcount=11947]
We didnt get any info about tech included in GT except 'lighting is simple and NFS has better" ...
What about volumetric smoke that can be light up and shadowed? What about lens flares? What about shadows on SSR? What about shaders? What about LOD analysis [and You can do it in Photomode easily]? What about reflections or car lights that lite up environment?
And why in article AI is bashed when its actually really good, but can be slow on low lvl races. Its quite easily to check this out, because whole B-spec mode is about AI! [watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfTk8gSoNZU&feature=player_embedded - and look for physics and animations of driver!]
And what about Fuji? We know that it changed quite drastically even in terms of textures.

And am I actually missed replay mode framerate analysis video?

 

[Neb]

We didnt get any info about tech included in GT except 'lighting is simple and NFS has better" ...
What about volumetric smoke that can be light up and shadowed? What about lens flares? What about shadows on SSR? What about shaders? What about LOD analysis [and You can do it in Photomode easily]? What about reflections or car lights that lite up environment?
And why in article AI is bashed when its actually really good, but can be slow on low lvl races. Its quite easily to check this out, because whole B-spec mode is about AI!
And what about Fuji? We know that it changed quite drastically even in terms of textures.

And am I actually missed replay mode framerate analysis video?

Was thin on technical indepth stuff and comparisions. Though lensflares, particles lit up by lights aint that uncommon in racing games. Interesting to know to witch NFS game(s) as IIRC DF article said 360 and PS3 had different HDR formats and for PC it's FP16.

 

[2real4tv]

Nice article. I like the damage model it looks very realistic in the DF article whats the tech behind it? Doesn't seem to be a simple model swap.

 

[Cyan]

The Digital Foundry article is excellent, and as usual they deserve the highest regard, but this time around they should cover other areas of the game in great detail albeit I suppose they didn't have the time to create such a colossal coverage. I think that, judging by his words, Grandmaster is more an arcadey racer than a sim racer?, but since the article is mostly focused on the technical aspects of the game and, thankfully, it mentions gameplay details here and there too.... his comprehensive analysis of the game (gameplay aside, as it's more a matter of tastes) is one of the best I have read on the internet.

The article has some details that only DF could achieve, like the comparison charts of the different framerates for 720p, 1080p and 3D, for instance.

I'm still surprised PD didn't switch to 720px4AA entirely, and I don't understand the technical reasons behind that decision, taking into account 720p may look better in this case and could free up some GPU power and memory, which Polyphony Digital loves.:smile:

I wonder what they would achieve with those extra resources when they can have 16 cars on screen at the same time, HDR lighting and a smooth framerate at the same time. The different resolutions are indeed nice, no matter which way you spin it.

But 720p AAx4 all the time would be the way to go for me....if I were a developer...

Currently, the appreciable difference boils down to developer talent. I think this game pushes the good ol' PS3 very hard.

Was thin on technical indepth stuff and comparisions. Though lensflares, particles lit up by lights aint that uncommon in racing games. Interesting to know to witch NFS game(s) as IIRC DF article said 360 and PS3 had different HDR formats and for PC it's FP16.

Now that you mention it, I loved how the article briefly talks about Need for Speed, which is going to receive a lot of extra publicity among GT5 fans that read the article. :smile: It's a great game to complement a sim, and it should be a good way to get a feel for less sim racers.

The original Need for Speed (3) Hot Pursuit had a some sim characteristics though.

 

[Quaz51]

for IQ with 1080p i think display mode is:

normal = QAAx2 + TAAx2
Fliker reduction = QAAx2
sharper = MSAAx2 + TAAx2

not sure for sharper

 

[djskribbles]

Thanks Quaz51. To your eyes, which looks best? I thought I preferred Flicker Reduction, but after a second view, I had a hard time telling them apart.

 

[Quaz51]

for compare normal mode and fliker reduction mode (or compare "with temporal AA" and "without temporal AA") it's easy. select normal mode and use the hold mode of your TV for switch OFF or ON the temporal AA.
temporal is good on alpha coverage aliasing

 

[dah145]

I'm actually disappointed with this article, yeah standard cars, 3D and framerate talk is great, but this article really misses much. For example damage, was only made on one car and we dont know from what lvl of GT Life that was [and we know that matters] for example http://i.imgur.com/4EmsLl.jpg this damage was made on lvl 18 after few no high speed bumps [source: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=24590624&postcount=11947]
We didnt get any info about tech included in GT except 'lighting is simple and NFS has better" ...
What about volumetric smoke that can be light up and shadowed? What about lens flares? What about shadows on SSR? What about shaders? What about LOD analysis [and You can do it in Photomode easily]? What about reflections or car lights that lite up environment?
And why in article AI is bashed when its actually really good, but can be slow on low lvl races. Its quite easily to check this out, because whole B-spec mode is about AI! [watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfTk8gSoNZU&feature=player_embedded - and look for physics and animations of driver!]
And what about Fuji? We know that it changed quite drastically even in terms of textures.

And am I actually missed replay mode framerate analysis video?

I agree with you, as extensive the analysis was, some details were completely ignored.

For example, one BIG difference from GT5P and the full release is the particle system, generally speaking, stuff like dust/smoke is now volumetrical and it is indeed affected by light and shadows, reminding me of games like the original Motorstorm and its sequel which curiously are also accompanied with awful particle and shadow resolution, as it seems to be a very taxing effect.

Now it begs the question: Was sacrificing image quality for a few more effects worth it?

P.S: I dont have the game yet, I am basing my judgement on videos

 

[Murakami]

for IQ with 1080p i think display mode is:

normal = QAAx2 + TAAx2
Fliker reduction = QAAx2
sharper = MSAAx2 + TAAx2

not sure for sharper

Thanks Quaz: and for 720p?

 

[JB9861]

Well even extensive coverage on other top console games only discussed so much. I feel I came away with more here than Uncharted or FF13 coverage. Possibly a second article or more insight from members like Quaz51? DF doesn't necessarily have to be the one filling in the gaps.

 

[N_B]

Update??

Update: There is the option in display settings to choose between Normal, Flicker Reduction and Sharper modes. We suspect these are for optimising the game on a standard def monitor, as comparison shots seem to indicate no difference in 720p, 1080p or 3D modes. Here are some 1080p shots. We tested both in-game and via Replay Theatre, but image quality remained the same regardless of our selections.

No difference? Quaz said you wont be able to see the effect of flicker reduction in screenshots anyway.

for IQ with 1080p i think display mode is:
sharper = MSAAx2 + TAAx2

not sure for sharper

Not much different here, aliasing looks about he same..

 

[djskribbles]

Where'd you find that? I can't find that section when I look at the article.
I'm more interested in Flicker Reduction vs Normal.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

Where'd you find that? I can't find that section when I look at the article.
I'm more interested in Flicker Reduction vs Normal.

It's in the middle of the first page
Seems like DF is only looking at it through still pictures instead of in motion, as I'm sure Quaz is correct on this. Weird oversight.

 

[djskribbles]

LOL. Thanks.

edit: the first comparison shots for flicker reduction and sharp are the only ones that are completely in sync and they look completely identical. Differences must be in motion only.

 

[Quaz51]

indeed GT5 temporal AA don't use "frame to frame" blend, just use retinal persistence. it's totally invisible on a screenshot. you can't see TAA on normal and sharper mode with screenshot. but it's easly to see if you use "pause" mode on your TV. TAA create filkering but it's like a SSAA (a free SSAA), it's efficacious on all aliasing type (like alpha coverage aliasing)

Shaper mode with MSAA was just a suposition because i don't see difference between normal mode et sharper mode on my TV, both seem to have the same AA, both have Temporal AA, both seem to have the same texture filtering...
Sharper screenshot indicate QAA too

 

[Billy Idol]

indeed GT5 temporal AA don't use "frame to frame" blend, just use retinal persistence. it's totally invisible on a screenshot. you can't see TAA on normal and sharper mode with screenshot. but it's easly to see if you use "pause" mode on your TV. TAA create filkering but it's like a SSAA (a free SSAA), it's efficacious on all aliasing type (like alpha coverage aliasing)

Shaper mode with MSAA was just a suposition because i don't see difference between normal mode et sharper mode on my TV, both seem to have the same AA, both have Temporal AA, both seem to have the same texture filtering...

Quaz, which mode to you recommend?

1080p or 720p...normal, sharp or flicker reduction?

what do you use for 3D gaming (is there even a choice?)

 

[Billy Idol]

with respect to the DF article: I think you guys are a little bit unfair!
of course some aspects are missing...but even if GM included your suggestions...other aspects would still be missing - just because this is such a mamoth game and a mamoth series.

phantastic, how much GM put in IMO, liked especially the comparison of the different versions.

For me, it was very interesting to see and learn how the game evolved (especially the PS3 versions) - I think one can clearly see, how devs typically try to max out the settings with the resources available and how much problems the limited resources of this old consoles cause the devs and I really wonder how difficult it is for an ambitious dev with kind of a vision to accept the "technical" limitations of the actual hardware and accept that sacrifices and tradeoffs are needed.

But I would love to read an update on the aliasing settings and how the AA method wors, accounting for the observations of Quaz51/upsilandre. For instance, I don't understand why this TSAA similar to SSAA as Quaz suggests? At a first moment, this sounds impossible?!

 

[Quaz51]

Quaz, which mode to you recommend?

1080p or 720p...normal, sharp or flicker reduction?

what do you use for 3D gaming (is there even a choice?)

in 2D 1080p (of course) and normal

in 3D you haven't choice. it's 720p QAAx2, no TAA

 

[Nesh]

I believe that Digital Foundry's article on GT5 needs an update since there are a few things they missed and are not giving an accurate picture of the game in some areas. Understandable though considering how much there is to analyze