Acceleon in action!

[Joe DeFuria]

Get a healthy combination of CPU and graphics power in analogy to upper thresholds of power consumptions and most limitations are gone and it makes little difference what you use it for. Neither just the graphics chip alone can replace the CPU, nor the opposite will.

I have not once said that I didn't see a place for dedicated 2D graphics chip support on such small devices.

And that´s the reason why 3D doesn´t make sense on small handheld devices?

Yes, key being 3D devices.

Keep it all on the CPU, let the MHz there scale and you´ll be searching for a power plug everytime you have an incoming call.

Unless, of course, you have a 2D device.

Half of the world´s largest semiconductors must be completely out of their minds.

Wouldn't be the first time that "half" of the world's largest at anything were wrong...

 

[Ailuros]

Wouldn't be the first time that "half" of the world's largest at anything were wrong...

No not necessarily, but chances are higher that they´re not. Question do we really need mobile phones with digi-cams? How are those selling?

No I wouldn´t buy one of those either.

Yes, key being 3D devices.

You can detect crappy output and lagging performance even on such small screens. How big are going the screens going to be for mobile phones with 3D capabilities anyway (no I really have no idea)?

Unless, of course, you have a 2D device.

Nope. Try power consumption values with 10x times the frequency current mobile CPU´s have. The FXflow cooling device will be optional, never mind if it´s bigger than the phone itself

It´s not about what you and I think is necessary, it´s about how you can tickle the interest of tons of geeks out there, that are willing to spend a small fortune (prolly more for bragging rights) on a high tech mobile phone.

Again inbuild digi-cam paradigm above. At launch many of them exceeded the 700$ margin around here.

 

[horvendile]

Question do we really need mobile phones with digi-cams? How are those selling?

The reports I've heard claim that at least in Sweden they sell extremely well and have bumped up mobile phone sells considerably.

 

[Captain Chickenpants]

I don't beleive it is just about games.
I think that manufacturers are wanting to use 3d in the UI
Animated bouncing icons that zoom in and out when you select them, could allow you to make better use of screen real estate, as well as looking funky and cool.
It would be possible to allow users to customize the way the UI looks. One of the things that phone companies push is the ability to personalize your phone. Ringtones, snap on covers and wallpapers are all available for the newer phones, and are making the mobile phone companies lots of money, this could become another revenue stream.

CC

 

[F0re]

Of course, the point is, that adding 3D support will add to product cost....and will that cost ultimately be justifiable in the cell-phone market where, AFAIK, ability to render 3D images is far down on the list of priorities of what cell-phone customers demand.

I have to disagree on that one and i'm more in line with Ailuros' comments and the digi-cam analogy. I think 3d games, even sidescrollers with some models and nifty force-shield effects is just what a next generation mobile needs to succeed in getting that "coolness" factor.
And for the screens.. i think what nokia 3650 has is plenty.

We have to realize that cellular-phone manufacturers today are focusing there new releases for different markets. i wouldn't dream on having 3d on my nokia 3510, but for a larger multifunctional device it would suit very well.

 

[deviantchild]

i've got to ask this
what if so-said handheld gaming device could have it's screen shut off (for distaction reasons and a bit of power saving) and be plugged into any television so that the console effectively became a gamepad, do you think feature rich 3d would sell it then? i personally think every GameBoy fanatic would want one

 

[KimB]

i've got to ask this
what if so-said handheld gaming device could have it's screen shut off (for distaction reasons and a bit of power saving) and be plugged into any television so that the console effectively became a gamepad, do you think feature rich 3d would sell it then? i personally think every GameBoy fanatic would want one

TV-out can take up a reasonable amount of space. This would likely only be feasible with some sort of adapter.

 

[Ailuros]

Of course, the point is, that adding 3D support will add to product cost....and will that cost ultimately be justifiable in the cell-phone market where, AFAIK, ability to render 3D images is far down on the list of priorities of what cell-phone customers demand.

I have to disagree on that one and i'm more in line with Ailuros' comments and the digi-cam analogy. I think 3d games, even sidescrollers with some models and nifty force-shield effects is just what a next generation mobile needs to succeed in getting that "coolness" factor.
And for the screens.. i think what nokia 3650 has is plenty.

We have to realize that cellular-phone manufacturers today are focusing there new releases for different markets. i wouldn't dream on having 3d on my nokia 3510, but for a larger multifunctional device it would suit very well.

Well summarized that is actually my point. Market estimates undoubtly must rely on the "geek factor" that´s involved in highly expensive mobile phones or other wireless small devices.

For me personally when it comes to mobile phones it´s about enough if I can make/receive calls and SMS messages. I just renew my connection with the provider every two or so years and get a device for free.

But there is definitely a quite sizable amount of individuals that are willing to spend quite a considerable sum for a mobile phone, just because it is the latest and the greatest and represents some sort of bragging fetish.

In retrospect the average consumer buys more than often stuff he really doesn´t need, with money he doesn´t have, just to "impress" people he doesn´t like. Some tend to call that phenomenon even life standard

 

[MfA]

An external adapter with a flexible UTP cable for a digital LVDS signal would also be more comfortable than connecting your pad with a coax cable.

 

[KimB]

An external adapter with a flexible UTP cable for a digital LVDS signal would also be more comfortable than connecting your pad with a coax cable.

Most small devices that I've seen that connect to TV's (camcorders, digital cameras) primarily use RCA connections, which are quite a bit easier to manage than coax. Though I will say that digital would probably be even better.

 

[davefb]

i must be a true geek then as i voted with my 'feet' and got a 7650 last year. when i can 'upgrade' on my network then i'll probably get the 6600 ... personally i'd love to play better apps on the phones, but the key problem is that the keyboards are just apalling for full speed games .
as for 3d hardware rather than software render, surely a hardware solution has the potential to use less gates than using a high speed cpu ? just my 2peneth.

as for 3d not working on devices like this,, what about v-rally on the gba?
-dave-

bah, i'll have to pay for the 'doris' browser, i *really* wanted to post that using my phone,,but it times out after 3 minutes and navigating this site at 208*176 pixels is just too much of a pain . i managed to 'login' but that was as far as i could get before my time was up !

 

[olivier]

humm

i love my work.. i do program for "geek" phone so i can play with that type of phone while being paid

Rigth now, i have worked on the nokia 9210 and 3650 and the p800 of sony ericson (damn nice phone).

 

[Simon F]

And the reason why there's "hardly anything happening" with current 3D GBA games is that the screen is simply too small.

And of course nothing to do with the facts that the CPU is only about 30Mhz and that there is only some simple linear transformation HW support in the display subsystem.

 

[MfA]

The most often reported number for the GBA clock is 16 MHz, you should just be able to play a game of Elite on that

 

[ram]

slightly OT

Question do we really need mobile phones with digi-cams?

I agree with you for todays mobile cam phones due to the low quality. But for the future, I see it the other way round. Do we really need digi-cams without mobile phone functionality? Seeing how Moore's law makes CCD cheaper I don't see a need for consumer digicams like IXUS / EXLIM in the future. Most of the people I know are happy with 2 MPix (not per second ;-) ), which isn't too far off for mobile phones.

Basicly, the same applies for GPS- & MP3-devices and to some point also GBA. As mobile phones keep getting subsidised by telcos, they can offer more features per paid $ than other mobile devices.

 

[Ailuros]

You didn´t get my point either exactly. If there are enough geeks out there to buy expensive mobile phones with digi cams, they´ll most likely spend similar amounts for mobile phones with even more features/functionalities. That alone from the perspective wether 3D is necessary on small wireless devices or not. IMO 3D for those devices is just as redundant as digi cams are.

 

[ram]

That alone from the perspective wether 3D is necessary on small wireless devices or not. IMO 3D for those devices is just as redundant as digi cams are.

I don't think so. There is a need for things that help reducing boredom. People buy magazines, people write SMS, people play games on their way to work. There is obviously an interrest in playing games on mobile devices, even with todays low quality graphics lot of people (buy and) play games like Tony Hawk's Pro Skater. This interrest will even increase as games will look prettier with 3d accelerated mobile devices.

But I agree, there would be things that I prefer seeing in mobile devices before they're 3d enhanced.

 

[Ailuros]

If I'd reply in german would the moderators object?

Back on topic: that was exactly my point from the very beginning. You just have to read through the past two pages to get a better picture.

What I meant in my last post as IMO, was purely concentrated on my own needs, which don't exceed the absolute baseline ie making/receiving phone calls and SMSs.

 

[horvendile]

About GBA:
I was under the impression that the GBA and the SNES had the same type of CPU. The SNES ticked away at, what, 3.58 MHz? Does the GBA have 5-10 times more raw power? Ignoring, of course, that with today's standards that would still be the number crunching equivalent of a small stone...

 

[davefb]

gba has arm chip , err look at www.arm.com for details ( guessing the url) . the snes had a 16bit/8bit 6502 "follow up" the 65816 . the gba is far more powerful in this respect. however , the sprite hardware is "about the same" though again the gba is more powerful . and the gba has things like 'bitmap modes' .. the snes had specific sound generation hardware , the gba doesn't . mind you having said that the 'guesstimate' of 5-10 times more powerful doesnt sound far wrong..

oh and 100mhz arm on the 7650/3650 phones could easily be another 5 times faster .

-dave-
w.r.t. camera phones ,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3161251.stm
perhaps b3d readers arent in the correct "demographic"