Differences between xbl and psn(online only)

Many of those are XNA games. They run on some sort of Common Language Run-time to prevent hacking. The "over-the-metal" games will require scrutiny by MS to support user generated content + sharing.

XNA is not an end user tool. You need to pay extra to join XNA Creator Club too. Plus no one said XNA is in PS3. PSN and XBL both have feature not found in the others. They will evolve their environments to stay competitive in the market.


On the PS3 side, I think Sony has the cross-platform PhyreEngine for developers to create their own games. They can test on Windows for free and then refine the game on PS3 after they get a contract.
 
Many of those are XNA games. They run on some sort of Common Language Run-time to prevent hacking. The "over-the-metal" games will require scrutiny by MS to support user generated content + sharing.

XNA is not an end user tool. You need to pay extra to join XNA Creator Club too. Plus no one said XNA is in PS3. PSN and XBL both have feature not found in the others. They will evolve their environments to stay competitive in the market.

My point was disputing your opinion that Xbox does not have user-generated content that's sharable. It was just ignorance on your part. That's one of the goods things to come out of these vs threads: education. ;)

Tommy McClain
 
Many of those are XNA games. They run on some sort of Common Language Run-time to prevent hacking. The "over-the-metal" games will require scrutiny by MS to support user generated content + sharing.

XNA is not an end user tool. You need to pay extra to join XNA Creator Club too. Plus no one said XNA is in PS3. PSN and XBL both have feature not found in the others. They will evolve their environments to stay competitive in the market.

Many are XNA games, not all are. The threat of the user-generated content isn't necessarily security, but content. Forza 2 was an experiment in this regards with the car painting feature, and there was always constantly inappropriate pictures on there. It becomes a headache from a game rating perspective, content censorship perspective, etc. It's much more than throwing up additional harddrive space for hosting content, you then have to staff it to filter out inappropriate content. It's for this reason, IMO, that this is not a standard feature yet on both PSN and XBL. Pointing to LBP as making it a feature of PSN is folly, because all indications were Sony paid for and set up the infrastructure for Media Molecule which I very much doubt they'd do for any game that requests such service. Frankly, it sounds like a token effort to reach their goal of saying they are the "Game 2.0" platform.

Sure, but in the context of free-ness, it works for free. Then Sony can follow up to improve the usability.

Apple doesn't give you free stuff do they ?
Do you pay for Safari, iTunes, Quicktime, etc?

The importance is I don't think Sony, or you, realize the importance of things "just working". Sony seems to get about 80% there on a lot of things, but then stop. It's the extra 20% of polish and bug-free behavior that is the differentiator. The Network Walkman line, much like the PSN, was completely 'serviceable', but the problem is it was in a competitive market place. "Good enough" for some is not good enough for others. I'd be very interested to see a poll of multi-console owners to see which online system they play their games on, but I'd have a feeling Xbox Live would come out on top of such a poll. There's a lot to be said for its "just works" factor, combined with the standardized features.

We need to remember why PSN is free. It's free because, especially when it launched, there was no possible way they could charge for it. It's still free now because there's still no possible way they could backtrack on their promises of "free online play" to get people to pay for it. It's certainly very nice that it's free, and Sony should definitely tell people that (as it is a factor for many), but free isn't good enough. XBL Gold isn't that expensive, which is why it has as many millions of paying subscribers as it does. To me, and many, many others, it passes the cost/benefit analysis. Sony still has a lot of work to do to catch up to XBL, even though you're trying to paint it as both are catching up to eachother. I'd strongly recommend abandoning that argument, as it's quite silly -- the only thing you've said XBL borrowed from PSN is getting paid clothing for avatars. (Do we have a vomit smilie?)
 
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It is not my opinion. It is the collective comments and games from MS developers. The fact is some games that support user generated content get blocked. Again LBP is not the only game to support the concept. UT3 mods were blocked by MS too. And there are several examples I pointed out above that run on PS3 over the metal.

The XNA platform and games are more for a limited group of consumers (prosumers), and has a locked down language layer to protect their hardware. An MS executive commented that Sony is "asking for it" for doing user generated content without something like a language run-time. Google for it.
 
It is not my opinion. It is the collective comments and games from MS developers.
You've only cited one small indy developer's comments, that's far from a collective comment?

The fact is some games that support user generated content get blocked. Again LBP is not the only game to support the concept. UT3 mods were blocked by MS too. And there are several examples I pointed out above that run on PS3 over the metal.

The XNA platform and games are more for a limited group of consumers (prosumers), and has a locked down language layer to protect their hardware. An MS executive commented that Sony is "asking for it" for doing user generated content without something like a language run-time. Google for it.
I've googled for it but I can't find it. I presume you couldn't either, which is why you didn't link it?

And XNA games aren't targeted for prosumers. Where did you get that idea? I'm starting to wonder if you've ever used the Xbox 360 or know what these games are. ;)
 
Discussing the Price difference of Live vs PSN... my personal opinion is, since I am not much of an online gamer anymore (used to play Q3A till my fingers bleeded),

I wouldn't ever play online if I had to pay a fee for it. At least something that is paid for a month at a time. I also used to play WoW, and stopped about two years ago... I'd love to play it once in a while, but I cannot justify paying a whole month for that, and the same goes for Live too. I mean, it is not much money, but still, it does cost, for a service that is completely free on ALL other platforms. At least with WoW, you got new content to play with after the patches came... but there's no such incentive with Live.

Also, most of the stuff, that is a firmware problem (cross game chat, invites, etc), I wouldn't count that as Live features, but features of the 360 and its firmware.

And to the issue of Warhawk... I also bought it day one (PSN download) and I concur... it just didn't work the first few weeks (had exams anyway so I didn't really anyway at the time :D), with connection issues every time you wanted to enter games. Later the extreme issues were patched, but the "server full" problems persisted to even today (not as extreme anymore, thankfully). At some time, Sony even started to have regional servers, which was really nice (no more 300ms pings, but <100ms, which did make quite a difference).
 
You've only cited one small indy developer's comments, that's far from a collective comment?


I've googled for it but I can't find it. I presume you couldn't either, which is why you didn't link it?

He's not making it up. I've read the comment too, but have yet to find it. But I'll agree that it's the potential of restrictive content(sex & copyrighted IP) than modding & breaking security that's holding MS back from opening it up like LBP.

Tommy McClain
 
You've only cited one small indy developer's comments, that's far from a collective comment?

He means that there is a collection of quotes from individual developers if you look for it. N+, Unreal Tournament, etc. The reluctance is also discussed by Microsoft themselves, and what patsu refers to

I've googled for it but I can't find it. I presume you couldn't either, which is why you didn't link it?

And XNA games aren't targeted for prosumers. Where did you get that idea? I'm starting to wonder if you've ever used the Xbox 360 or know what these games are. ;)

... is real: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/...-sony-on-the-user-generated-content-front.ars ...

my google-fu is strong ... though ironically it was bing that gave it as the first hit! :D ("unreal microsoft on user generated content")
 
He means that there is a collection of quotes from individual developers if you look for it. N+, Unreal Tournament, etc. The reluctance is also discussed by Microsoft themselves, and what patsu refers to



... is real: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/...-sony-on-the-user-generated-content-front.ars ...

my google-fu is strong ... though ironically it was bing that gave it as the first hit! :D ("unreal microsoft on user generated content")

Yep, that's it. Came from this interview...

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3161418

Tommy McClain
 
It's for this reason, IMO, that this is not a standard feature yet on both PSN and XBL. Pointing to LBP as making it a feature of PSN is folly, because all indications were Sony paid for and set up the infrastructure for Media Molecule which I very much doubt they'd do for any game that requests such service.
ModNation Racers shows an expansion of the user content ideal. And the name 'ModNation xxxx' certainly implies future user mod games, although that's pure speculation on my part. But we also have SingStar movies and UT's mods. I agree with the idea that XBL is fairly locked-down, and PSN is far more open, given both the availability of content and reports over the past few years like the quoted UT and the MMO creators (NCSoft) who said Sony's platform supported them (although where exactly are these NCSoft titles...?)

Frankly, it sounds like a token effort to reach their goal of saying they are the "Game 2.0" platform.
I think it's a real movement at Sony's usual lethargic pace. ;)

We need to remember why PSN is free. It's free because, especially when it launched, there was no possible way they could charge for it.
I never used XBLive! on XB, but from what little I've heard it wasn't terrible fleshed out, yet MS still charged for it. Correct me if I'm wrong. I think Sony's decision is purely marketing and it isn't related to the level of services. They want to provide a free service and generate revenue through other streams, believing that is more profitable. The fact their network services are a bit pants is independent of that, and a result of Sony's design, prioritising, or whatever.
 
So why do people buy all those big demo-less Microsoft exclusives then? Where was my Halo 3 demo, Gears 1/2 demo, Fable 2 demo, Mass Effect demo, etc.?

AAA titles are an entirely different beast, they always have plenty of word of mouth, and it's easy to try them out either at a friends place, or wherever. Plus it's not uncommon to blind buy the sequel to a AAA game if you liked the prior one. I will blind buy Mass Effect 2 and Fable 3, no demo needed. But Flower? No chance, not without a demo.


If the free demo comes with paid subscription for online gaming, then nope. They can keep the free demo.

So if Sony tomorrow started charging $2.50/mt for PSN, would you completely stop using PSN or would you pay?


I agree with the idea that XBL is fairly locked-down, and PSN is far more open

Part of that could be because of MS's bizarre strategy of tying hdd pricing to the price of gold. Buying movies, dlc, etc, makes them money whereas user content does not. So if they are going to fill someones limited hdd, they want to fill it with money generating content. Just a guess on my part though. Once they offer proper hdd pricing, as well as larger hdd options, then it should be easier to offer more user generated content.
 
I think if MS offered a PSN level experience to it users for free and had the extra little things like the party system as a paid for option at $40 per year, the majority of users would just stick to the free option. Agree?

The fact that XBL has so many subscribers doesnt say that they are HAPPY to pay the fee, rather they simply have no option if they want to play online with thier console.
 
AAA titles are an entirely different beast, they always have plenty of word of mouth, and it's easy to try them out either at a friends place, or wherever. Plus it's not uncommon to blind buy the sequel to a AAA game if you liked the prior one. I will blind buy Mass Effect 2 and Fable 3, no demo needed. But Flower? No chance, not without a demo.

But the first ones didn't have demos. Plus I never bought any of these games. I wasn't convinced and waited for the two that I thought I might like until they were platinum releases (Gears 1 and Fable 2). I didn't like Gears 1 (both gameplay and looks disappointed me), and Fable 2 the jury is still out on (haven't played far enough).

So if Sony tomorrow started charging $2.50/mt for PSN, would you completely stop using PSN or would you pay?

Who knows? The differences between the services are currently far too small for me to say that PSN is worth significantly less than Live. Let's switch things around, and say that Live would become free on the 360. Would I use it more? No, because I payed for live for 6 years, and barely used it. I cancelled my subscription because I was throwing away money. Even if I did use it enough each month to make it worth the entrance fee however, that would still count against the cost of ownership of the 360.

Just think about it for a moment: I can currently buy up-to 8 PSN games A YEAR for the price of Live in Europe. So what if I buy one that I play for less than the 2 hours of entertainment the average price of a PSN game is worth occasionally. Trash Panic ultimately didn't click with me, and neither did Elefunk. Did I lose a huge investment there? I still have about 45 euro left that I spent on games that I sunk a lot of time in, like Flower, Wipeout HD, Zen Pinball, and Super Stardust, to name but a few that even with the 'expensive' Wipeout HD amount to about 45 Euros. In fact, the price of Live even during the period that I've owned a PS3 (which is shorter for Europeans) still covers just about all my PSN purchases (ok, maybe excluding SingStar songs and the Fury pack), including larger titles like Warhawk and Burnout Paradise.

Part of that could be because of MS's bizarre strategy of tying hdd pricing to the price of gold. Buying movies, dlc, etc, makes them money whereas user content does not. So if they are going to fill someones limited hdd, they want to fill it with money generating content. Just a guess on my part though. Once they offer proper hdd pricing, as well as larger hdd options, then it should be easier to offer more user generated content.

This is not their problem. LBP levels take about 5MB per level. You can download 200 levels into 1GB. Trial HD levels are way smaller than that still. We can only hope that other developers may profit from Forza 3 developments on this front, but so far, no dice. Nevertheless, Forza is a nice example of how they contradict themselves when they deny a service to others that they open up for themselves, for in Forza you can also create all sorts of obscene and copy-righted materials and even "sell" them. This is potentially an even bigger legal problem, but here Microsoft makes an exception.

The harddrive is Sony's memorystick from last-generation - it's one of their important keys for hiding hardware profits from the psychological consumer price-purchase barrier. This policy is biting them in the backside right now though as it starts eating into their Live revenue in terms of content sales.

Mind you, in the US, there's still some value-add going on in terms of additional services connected to Live. In Europe though? Except for the tiny bit of effort in the U.K., Live currently doesn't deserve to be a paid service, in my honest opinion. Though allow me to stress each of those four words - even the tiniest of features may be worth a lot of money for those that really, really want it.
 
I have a question ; do people have to buy gold account to purchase DLCs & XBL games or silver members can also purchase them ? I mean do you have to pay $50/year for gaining access to " game purchase " ?

Silver (FREE) members get all the benefits of gold except for online gaming and Netflix.

they can DL ALL the free stuff, demos, themes, Arcade trials, avatar stuff, videos, etc. and all the paid stuff, HD or SD movies, tv shows, XBL Arcade, full release games and XNA user created content. thay can send messages and private voice chat, but can not join a party.

they can also join some online games as a guest on a gold account f the game supports local MP.

we have two gold accounts and one silver
 
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So how many gold subscribes are they. do we have any numbers ?.

I think the last number I heard was around 25% of X360 users. But my memory is a bit hazy on that so it's quite likely I'm probably wrong. And that was also like a year or more again. Again my memory is hazy on that and I might be remembering something else and incorrectly attributing it to gold memberships.

Blast this whole getting old thing. :p

Regards,
SB
 
I think if MS offered a PSN level experience to it users for free and had the extra little things like the party system as a paid for option at $40 per year, the majority of users would just stick to the free option. Agree?

The fact that XBL has so many subscribers doesnt say that they are HAPPY to pay the fee, rather they simply have no option if they want to play online with thier console.

People can buy dirt cheap cell phones with dirt cheap plans, yet they pay a fortune to own and support the monthly fee of the iPhone. Why? I mean, any cheap phone will let them talk with others right? So, why do they pay so much more? It's because the iPhone can do everything those cheap phone can do plus much more, just like Live offers more than PSN. The confusion results from people who mistakenly believe that Live and PSN are on a level playing field. Hint...they aren't.


Arwin said:
Who knows?

See, I don't buy that. Somehow the PS3 guys are totally fine blind buying $5-$15 PSN games that have no demo, are fine paying $3 for animated themes or LBP outfits, have no problem regularly dropping money on Qore, $600 console price was not a deterrent, spending money upgrading hdd's is perfectly fine, spending a chunk of change on electricity by leaving those launch PS3's folding all the time is fine, buying headsets and hdmi cables, no problem, etc, all that money is somehow a non issue. But $2.50/mt to get a full featured online service with all it's perks and advantages is somehow a total show stopper. Sorry I don't buy it, not for a minute. If Sony were to charge for PSN, most of the PS3 fans here would fall in line and pay it. But we'll see. When Sony starts to charge for PSN, then I expect to see many vocal complaints from people here, and likewise I expect people to forgo PSN, since of course as we know $2.50/mt is simply an insurmountable obstacle.


Arwin said:
This is not their problem. LBP levels take about 5MB per level. You can download 200 levels into 1GB.

Many of the machines have 20gb hdd's, which have ~13gb free. Two downloaded movies will take up most of that space. So 1gb might sound small, but in this case it's not. It's certainly not for technical reasons that they won't do it, there's a business reason behind it, I'm guessing the limiting factor is their hdd pricing strategy which at some point will have to catch up with the times.
 
What's your Xbox Live username, ShadowRunner? ;)

They're not on the same level, Joker is absolutely right. This is the #1 reason I only buy PS3 games when they're exclusives and when they're good exclusives at that. If I have a choice, I'll buy and play on the 360 every single time -- and almost exclusively because of Live. To me, Live is the dealbreaker. PSN feels more like a barren wasteland of inconsistencies and inadequacies. The couple times I played Resistance online the vast majority of people didn't even have headsets, and good luck easily switching in and out of games with friends who are in other games at the moment...

It gave me vivid memories of PC gaming online in the late 90s. I'm way past that, now.
 
See, I don't buy that. Somehow the PS3 guys are totally fine...But $2.50/mt to get a full featured online service with all it's perks and advantages is somehow a total show stopper.
That's true for me. ;) I don't do subscriptions on the whole. I'm not happy paying up-front £4 a month (and let's be honest here, that vast majority of European Live! subscribers don't pay only €20 a year Live! It's more like €30 I think) for a service that I then pay for content from. A free service is 'risk free' and more inviting, and more probable to get me visiting and impulse buying on disposably-priced items. Note one reason I'm more willing to spend small amounts on PSN titles is because I can share them with friends, so the relative cost can be seen as a 'third'.

Sorry I don't buy it, not for a minute. If Sony were to charge for PSN, most of the PS3 fans here would fall in line and pay it.
You may want to phrase that better! If they were to charge for PSN as is, no-one would subscribe and Sony would lose all PSN store sales! If they were to offer a premium service, that may be different. Though IMO a subscription fee is completely unwarranted for a 'service' that requires no input from the service provider. Like the insane BT 'line rental', a charge which rakes in the profits and does nothing for me. The line is in and has been paid for a thousand times over, so why am I still having to pay?! Things like peer-to-peer voice chat need the software to be written, and that's it. So why charge a flat monthly fee? Because you can, and it's insanely profitable. Well, Skype is only popular because it's free to use. Free to use is the best way to attract users (as long as the service isn't complete pants). If Sony had feature parity with MS, being free would be a big sales-point even if in the grand scheme of things those few tens of dollars wouldn't mean much to the typical user.
 
The problem for me is that i'm feeling ripped off.

I pay good money to my internet provider for a relative fast connection that enables me to play multiplayer games on all other platforms.

I dosen't feel right to pay for a gold subscription just to logon to a lobby server and start a multiplayer game based on p2p. They can charge me for any other feature in live and i might find it worth the price, But not multiplayer.

I payed for it when i bought the game and when i bought the internet enabled console and of course my monthly fee to the ISP, thats more than enough for me.
 
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