Differences between xbl and psn(online only)

I've seen the article before. It's an interesting complaint to say the least, but as the article itself points out the only game for the PS3 that's done this is LBP and that game itself required a lot of specific investment and care and attention from Sony to get working. It's hardly a standard PSN feature.

Purchasable and sponsored items for the Avatar ? Sony sold 1 million worth of Santa Claus clothing items within the first week. You'll see more Home-like business models for the Avatars (e.g., Advertisements with Avatars)
This is actually the most upsetting development that's happened to the 360, IMHO. I hate the avatars and I hate even more the concept of "premium clothing". It's a hideous abomination and, frankly, a tax on stupid people. I hate that it's come to Xbox Live, and I'm not sure why you would use this as a column in the checkbox of things MS is taking from Home. That's obviously a pretty barren space for an argument, and this is actually one reason I'm very much anti-Home. It's a horrible distraction from gaming, on a gaming system.

My point is: Yes. there are nice XBL features but free is still a valid and fundamental benefit. You can play *any* PS3 online game for free.
Even MMOs?

He/she doesn't have to be frugal. People may just think that it is not worthwhile to pay for the P2P online infrastructure.
People don't consider the P2P/server aspects. To 99%+ of users, it just works. The "just works" is key. On the PS3, I can't be playing a game in Resistance: Fall of Man and invite a friend of mine who is playing in LBP to join my match. That's an example of it not "just working", and an example of why XBL has so many paid subscribers.

Business people are not stupid. If demo improves profit (not just revenue) on an overall scale, they will gladly do it without people pushing them. From user perspective, consumers would love it. But at the same time, they can also abuse it.
Actually, business people are stupid. Very, very stupid. As anyone who has worked in corporate environments would attest to.

I'll give you an example. One company I recently worked for had the largest database of people's phone numbers and addresses, and business locations/names/phone numbers/websites/etc in the country. They were a directory publishing company. They actively went to companies like Google and Microsoft to get them to use the data. They ended up <b>paying</b> Google and Microsoft to use them as their data provider for things like Google Maps and Bing Maps. I'm not making this up. They did not comprehend the fundamental value of the data they had, and instead paid other people to use their data for their own services for misaligned business goals (improve brand recognition, increased business ad sales). Business people can, and frequently are, mind-bogglingly stupid. It's why Dilbert is so successful.
 
A lot of my PS3-only owning friends were actually quite livid that the NHL 10 demo was delayed on the PS3. It's not the first time.

It's an advertised limitations of Xbox Live Silver and it's an undocumented surprise with PSN so I don't think it's a big deal. In the case of NHL 10 I'm fairly sure XBL Silver users got it before the PS3 people did, in any case.

NHL 10 demo was released on XBL on 8/20 and on PSN 1 week later so it was an advertise limitation for PSN.
 
Ok, let me simplify the issue. If i have to call an isp to play a console game, then something on said console is poorly implemented. No one should have to call their isp to play a game, period. It's not like my network is magical in any way, every other device on our network functions perfectly fine.

May be Warhawk has features not found in the other online games you played ?

It's a weakness in their strategy. For one, people that go with free are less likely to spend money on other stuff. It's like that Cable vs. DirecTV argument. Cable may have more subscribers, but they are 'cheap' subscribers that don't spend much money beyond the basics. DirecTV on the other hand costs more and has less subscribers, but those same subscribers spend more money on other stuff and therefore have more value from a business point of view. XBLive can be easily had for $30/year. If $2.50 per month represents an Insurmountable Obstacle (tm) to some people (even with all the added benefits of XBLive), then these same people would probably not be spending as much money on other stuff online anyways. So as clients, they are less valuable. It's moot anyways since I don't personally believe that PSN will be free forever.

Yes and no. It is also known that free MMO services may get higher returns over time as people spend more on consumables. The risk is great but so is the windfall. Free also allows Sony to build their base faster. Finally, it does not prevent them from introducing a premium tier later.

Introducing a free tier to XBL is possible too, but would cannibalize on their paid services immediately.

Plus, "Free" is still a fundamental benefit now even if you think it won't be free in the future. Introducing a premium tier doesn't mean the free service has to go away. You can charge for different things.

Let me simplify this one also. If you personally had the choice of having the state of PSN demos be primitive as it is now, or having every single PSN product have a demo, which would you prefer? Can you really say with a straight face that you prefer that demos not be available for many of the games?

If the free demo comes with paid subscription for online gaming, then nope. They can keep the free demo. Asking the community for recommendation is fun and helps build relationships. It's not as bad as people think. We all know demoes are not a good way to evaluate games anyway.
 
It also works the opposite way. Since I have to spend money to maintain a membership to enjoy the full benefit of my games, I don't purchase anything off XBL. Since I have a free membership that allows me to do the most important thing I want to do for free, online multiplayer, I spend lots of money on PSN.
I'm sure the numbers will demonstrate you are not in the majority. I'm in the complete opposite boat -- I much prefer the unified, consistent, reliable experience of the 360 (and improved selection of games) and I happily pay the $30/yr for XBL membership. I have a free PSN membership, which is nice to have, but I don't think I've ever paid for a single thing on the service. Nor have I ever used it to play online games, except for one or two matches of Resistance: Fall of Man. Why? Because the experience is really quite jarring from what I'm used to. Free isn't a factor at all to me. Judging by how many people are on XBL, it's quite clear many of the gamers are in the same boat. And gamers who are willing to spend $30/yr to subscribe to the service are also, statistically, much, much more likely to buy DLC and other content online. They've obviously got more money to burn in most cases. It's a much more desirable demographic.

NHL 10 demo was released on XBL on 8/20 and on PSN 1 week later so it was an advertise limitation for PSN.
Can you show me where it was advertised? All of my friends logged in every day to check, and usually tweeted their frustration after each day it wasn't on there. It was not an advertised or obvious delay. EA's website simply said "NHL 10 Demo" on 8/20 for weeks. Then after 8/20 passed they updated it to 8/27 for "PS3 NHL 10 Demo".

Patsu: There is already a free tier of XBL. ;) You just can't play games with it. MS has no reason to make it free. If they ever do, they can easily do it. It's FAR harder for Sony to introduce a premium tier later than it is for MS to permit Silver to play games later. Sony's marketing explicitly emphasized FREE online gameplay. They may actually be in legal trouble if they take that away. Their hands are kind of tied. All they can do is introduce premium service subscriptions to include things like a useless Qore subscription, maybe 1-2 Sony movie streams a month, etc. Nothing 99% of people would jump at.
 
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And gamers who are willing to spend $30/yr to subscribe to the service are also, statistically, much, much more likely to buy DLC and other content online. They've obviously got more money to burn in most cases. It's a much more desirable demographic.

And gamers who are willing to pay $599 for a console certainly have money to spare and are much more likely to purchase dlc and other online content :D

As far as playing online, I don't have connectivity issues, see and play with my friends. It is not a jarring experience for me when and if I play on Live. Just me I guess.

Can you show me where it was advertised? All of my friends logged in every day to check, and usually tweeted their frustration after each day it wasn't on there. It was not an advertised or obvious delay.

I don't think you have to advertise to know why. :D

It's a ping pong match really. I need to go to bed.
 
I've seen the article before. It's an interesting complaint to say the least, but as the article itself points out the only game for the PS3 that's done this is LBP and that game itself required a lot of specific investment and care and attention from Sony to get working. It's hardly a standard PSN feature.

LBP is not the only one. Unreal Tournament, Buzz, SingStar and soon EyePet have sharable user generated content too. The developers will learn from each other and.... improve.

The PSN feature is called freedom (to implement a full-featured user-generated content environment). The developers can choose to implement sharing features without a big brother telling them it's not possible.

This is actually the most upsetting development that's happened to the 360, IMHO. I hate the avatars and I hate even more the concept of "premium clothing". It's a hideous abomination and, frankly, a tax on stupid people. I hate that it's come to Xbox Live, and I'm not sure why you would use this as a column in the checkbox of things MS is taking from Home. That's obviously a pretty barren space for an argument, and this is actually one reason I'm very much anti-Home. It's a horrible distraction from gaming, on a gaming system.

Whelp, even if you don't like it... Microsoft has followed suit. You may see more Home-like advertisement features in the future (i.e., Advertisement with Avatars). If Microsoft does a good job, then it's supposed to be entertaining. ^_^

Who knows, may be it will allow them to introduce free online gaming in the future.

People don't consider the P2P/server aspects. To 99%+ of users, it just works. The "just works" is key. On the PS3, I can't be playing a game in Resistance: Fall of Man and invite a friend of mine who is playing in LBP to join my match. That's an example of it not "just working", and an example of why XBL has so many paid subscribers.

Why not ? It just takes more steps. Send them an XMB message. They can read it in-game and come join you. We do it all the time in our RFOM days (even though it took even more steps then). We also used the built-in PS3 web browser to solicit players from GAF directly. Those were my happiest online gaming days.

Actually, business people are stupid. Very, very stupid. As anyone who has worked in corporate environments would attest to.

May be the business people in your company is very very stupid. As far as I can tell, not all are. There are certainly many technical people who think they are smart but failed miserably in sales and marketing when they tried to do it themselves.

I have been through all the roles. I can tell you the (good) sales people earn my deepest respect. A good company will have talented individuals in all departments.


EDIT:
Fat Princess, Killzone 2, SOCOM and Warhawk had major server issues during launch. Just browse a popular forum and look at the thread history. It's a joke to think people need to call their ISP over this. When Gears 2 had it's issues, no one suggesting calling up the ISP over it.

It's not a joke if joker454 is still having the issue after the others have resolved them.


EDIT 2:

Asher said:
Patsu: There is already a free tier of XBL. ;) You just can't play games with it. MS has no reason to make it free. If they ever do, they can easily do it. It's FAR harder for Sony to introduce a premium tier later than it is for MS to permit Silver to play games later. Sony's marketing explicitly emphasized FREE online gameplay. They may actually be in legal trouble if they take that away. Their hands are kind of tied. All they can do is introduce premium service subscriptions to include things like a useless Qore subscription, maybe 1-2 Sony movie streams a month, etc. Nothing 99% of people would jump at.

What's the use of free XBL if it can't do all online gaming ? Xbox 360 is marketed strictly as a game machine.

If Sony were to charge for PSN, they can do it for other stuff. e.g., They did an experiment in Asia where users pay a yearly fee to get all PSN games. Online gaming remains free. I'm sure there are other possibilities (e.g., aim for dedicated server)

Even XBL is not 99% after 4 years. :)
 
And gamers who are willing to pay $599 for a console certainly have money to spare and are much more likely to purchase dlc and other online content :D
As sales have shown, there weren't many people who paid $599 for the console. You need to strike a balance between price and volume.

As far as playing online, I don't have connectivity issues, see and play with my friends. It is not a jarring experience for me when and if I play on Live. Just me I guess.
I would imagine it is just you, because it's a demonstrable fact that there are not universal online features across PS3 games.

I don't think you have to advertise to know why. :D

It's a ping pong match really. I need to go to bed.
I'm just telling you what Joker meant by delayed PS3 demos. They're frequently delayed on the PS3 without warning or announcement. NHL 10 is a very recent, high-profile example. Telling Canadian gamers they could play NHL 10 on a day and then tell them they need to wait a week is almost a crime. :cool:
 
LBP is not the only one. Unreal Tournament, Buzz, SingStar and soon EyePet have sharable user generated content too. The developers will learn from each other and.... improve.

The PSN feature is called freedom (to implement a full-featured user-generated content environment). The developers can choose to implement sharing features without a big brother telling them it's not possible.
That's a theoretical "feature". No developer has actually done that. LBP has its infrastructure because Sony (the big brother) did it for them -- not the developers. The other kinds of user-generated content are not new or exclusive to the PSN, LBP was in a league of its own. As I said, Guitar Hero World Tour and Halo 3 had user-generated content in the same veing as Buzz, Singstar, EyePet, etc.

Whelp, even if you don't like it... Microsoft has followed suit.
Being able to pay for advertisement-laden threads for tacky avatars is not a "feature". Is this the only "feature" MS took from PSN?

Why not ? It just takes more steps.
If it "just takes more steps", then it obviously doesn't "just work".

May be the business people in your company is very very stupid. As far as I can tell, not all are.
Not all are, but an alarming number of them are. I've worked for many companies over the years, all displaying massive amounts of business stupidity in various degrees. IBM, independent private software consultants, massive directory publishers, to telecommunication companies.

I have been through all the roles. I can tell you the (good) sales people earn my deepest respect. A good company will have talented individuals in all departments.
This is true, but it's also true many companies have less-than-competent individuals in all departments. Stupid decisions involving games development from business people are not at all unusual, or undocumented... As I'm sure many of the devs here will tell us.
 
That's the problem...I have no idea if the game is good because I can't play a demo! I'm not about to start guessing by buying games and hoping they are good. Sorry but there is no need to do that when I can get demos on the other platform. So this one simple issue renders PSN mostly worthless to me.

So why do people buy all those big demo-less Microsoft exclusives then? Where was my Halo 3 demo, Gears 1/2 demo, Fable 2 demo, Mass Effect demo, etc.?

I wonder about your network setup. I couldn't solve a lot of Live online problems until I fully DMZ'd the 360. I never put my PS3 under a DMZ but generally have had no problems with that. Are they maybe connected in a different way?

@patsu: echochrome also has user levels, by the way.
 
That's a theoretical "feature". No developer has actually done that. LBP has its infrastructure because Sony (the big brother) did it for them -- not the developers. The other kinds of user-generated content are not new or exclusive to the PSN, LBP was in a league of its own. As I said, Guitar Hero World Tour and Halo 3 had user-generated content in the same veing as Buzz, Singstar, EyePet, etc.

It's not "just" server capacity and moderations. LBP is certainly not the only one. UT3 for PS3 has freely available user mods which are disallowed in the Xbox 360 version: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/2556/the_unreal_man_mark_rein_speaks.php

Buzz has a website for end users to submit content, SingStar has user video and photo editing + publishing capability. EyePet will have user drawings for the pet's toys. And yes Arwin, Echochrome has user created levels. ModNation Racers will have user-created race tracks. Even though Microsoft approved Halo 3 and GHWT, it just means that those games passed their validation. It does not mean they have opened the flood gate.

Xbox 360 has been modded. If someone cracks XBL via user generated content, it will be a showstopper for Microsoft.

Being able to pay for advertisement-laden threads for tacky avatars is not a "feature". Is this the only "feature" MS took from PSN?

People paid for the items. That means they value it even if you dislike the model. As for advertisement-laden titles, blame it on the offender. If Xbox 360 overloads its own UI with advertisement, it's their fault even if Sony did it first in their own ways. Sony certainly has to learned it the hard way too.

If it "just takes more steps", then it obviously doesn't "just work".

Doesn't matter. It is possible to do the same thing. It works for free.

The next thing they need to work on is the usability issues.

Not all are, but an alarming number of them are. I've worked for many companies over the years, all displaying massive amounts of business stupidity in various degrees. IBM, independent private software consultants, massive directory publishers, to telecommunication companies.

This is true, but it's also true many companies have less-than-competent individuals in all departments. Stupid decisions involving games development from business people are not at all unusual, or undocumented... As I'm sure many of the devs here will tell us.

Those so-called business stupidity may be made by technical people pretending to be business people too. Then again, it's a topic for another forum.
 
It does matter if it "just works". Ask Apple. Sony didn't learn their lesson on that front either. But there were still Sony fans talking Minidiscs and network Walkmans, defending the laggard software and awkward but "just as functional" UIs telling us it doesn't matter.
 
Sure, but in the context of free-ness, it works for free. Then Sony can follow up to improve the usability.

Apple doesn't give you free stuff do they ?
 
It does matter if it "just works". Ask Apple. Sony didn't learn their lesson on that front either. But there were still Sony fans talking Minidiscs and network Walkmans, defending the laggard software and awkward but "just as functional" UIs telling us it doesn't matter.

Somewhere down the line we end up with "Just Works + fees" vs "Good Enough + Free", so what will the consumers choose?

I have not used my X360 for years and never online, so personally I do not have any opinion on it, besides from what I read on here and other places.

With that said, PSN is good enough for me, I'd like to have voice (party) chats a cross games etc, but it's not a big deal breaker for me.
 
I have a question ; do people have to buy gold account to purchase DLCs & XBL games or silver members can also purchase them ? I mean do you have to pay $50/year for gaining access to " game purchase " ?
 
I have a question ; do people have to buy gold account to purchase DLCs & XBL games or silver members can also purchase them ? I mean do you have to pay $50/year for gaining access to " game purchase " ?

No, and you have acces to demos one week after the golds.
 
I have a question ; do people have to buy gold account to purchase DLCs & XBL games or silver members can also purchase them ? I mean do you have to pay $50/year for gaining access to " game purchase " ?

No. Gold members get the occasional discount that Live members don't get though (but stress occasional). And as said Silver members have to wait a week longer for the demos (kind of silly tbh). The primary advantage of Gold is still just the basic actual playing online, and a few additional services for U.S. residents like Netflix and soon the facebook, twitter and last.fm stuff.
 
Somewhere down the line we end up with "Just Works + fees" vs "Good Enough + Free", so what will the consumers choose?

I have not used my X360 for years and never online, so personally I do not have any opinion on it, besides from what I read on here and other places.

With that said, PSN is good enough for me, I'd like to have voice (party) chats a cross games etc, but it's not a big deal breaker for me.

Agreed. For me XBL and PSN are just about equal. If XBL was free it would be clearly better, and if PSN was paid it would be no contest. At the end of the day i comes down to the value a individual places on the difference in useability. For me PSN is more than good enough for a free service, likewise XBL is more than enough for a paid service. For those that are online constantly the value of the paid service increases, for those that are more casual with there usage free services value increases.

These vs threads are a waste of time, the reason the discussion exists is because we all know the services are pretty much equal, and thus all we end up with is the usual suspects arguing back and forth with a final argument winner impossible. If something is better to you personnally it does not mean everyone places the same value upon it so trying to force opinions on others is useless.
 
May be Warhawk has features not found in the other online games you played ?
That doesn't change the issue though. Networks should just work. They shouldn't mess about with individual games. No matter what features you have, it's just packets of data sent down the line. However, ISPs can mess up systems. Tiscali were cetainly guilty of throttling PSN users in the early days. Dunno if they still are. But that would be a device-wide response.
 
That doesn't change the issue though. Networks should just work. They shouldn't mess about with individual games. No matter what features you have, it's just packets of data sent down the line. However, ISPs can mess up systems. Tiscali were cetainly guilty of throttling PSN users in the early days. Dunno if they still are. But that would be a device-wide response.

The issue is a complex one because it involves multiple parties along the way. It affects XBL for some locations too. e.g.,

Arwin said:
I wonder about your network setup. I couldn't solve a lot of Live online problems until I fully DMZ'd the 360. I never put my PS3 under a DMZ but generally have had no problems with that. Are they maybe connected in a different way?

DMZing the device may solve some of these problems.
 

http://creators.xna.com/
http://creators.rockband.com/

Indie Games
  • Avatar Golf
  • Easy Golf
  • Kodu Game Lab
  • Track Architect
  • Zoomaroom

Arcade Games
  • Band of Bugs
  • Flock
  • Lode Runner
  • N+

Disc Games
  • Banjo Kazooie Nuts & Bolts

Microsoft has plenty of current and coming user-generated content. As far as I'm aware PS3 isn't getting the ability to allow anybody to create their own games or Rockband songs. As for the latter, PS3 will get some of them on their store, but Harmonix will decide which ones.

Tommy McClain
 
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