Why the PS3 framebuffer only scales horizontally

[Shifty Geezer]

Of course the problem is that a good upscale (comparative to the 360's hardware upscale) takes a lot of gpu processing, so more often than not a quick and dirty upscale solution is put in place. In the end we are left with the peculiar situation where people that have only 1080p (either by choice or by tv limitation) are actually presented with a worse quality image and crappier frame rate, yet they don't know it.

Ahh, but that's arguing a pro-consumer position. If these people are none-the-wiser and happy to have bigger numbers to feel better about regardless of (unknowingly) inferior picture quality, why spend resources providing them with a better experience they wouldn't appreciate? Personally I think it's stupid not to have a scaler, but I don't think this argument of yours in favour of hardware scaling really works.

 

[pcflynn89]

So, if I have a 1080i tv that also supports 720p, its better to leave the ps3 set to 720p max, turn off 1080i support and then let the tv do the upscaling?

Games will run better this way?

 

[TheWretched]

Well... I guess, since most of the hardware development probably took place in Japan (beside Cell and RSX), and the Japanese are always at the forefront of all sorts of home appliances, they didn't "see" the problem in the US (as it wasn't present in Europe either, with the HD Ready label). I mean, there are things, you might not consider at all when working on stuff like this.

Before I bought the PS3, I was actually suspecting that all games always ran at native resolution, even on PS2 or PS1 (well, I was still young and at school at the time ).

But true, Sony knew that many of their own older TVs didn't support 720P (which, btw was one of the most moronic moves of the TV industry by far^^) and thus had problems with the PS3.

At first, the PS3 couldn't even playback BluRays at 720P and your tv had to support 1080i to view HD on your TV, as the PS3 couldn't convert down to 720P.

They should also let me set up, which resolution a game should default to. I mean, I have a 1080P tv, so naturally, I set up the PS3 to 720P and 1080P, but some games thus default to 1080P although their software scaling is very bad. I have a Bravia, which indeed has quite a good scaler in comparison to my mothers Samsung (older model though).

 

[paawl]

So, if I have a 1080i tv that also supports 720p, its better to leave the ps3 set to 720p max, turn off 1080i support and then let the tv do the upscaling?

Games will run better this way?

No. In general, it is best to let the game software decide what resolution to render at. There aren't many games (that I'm aware of) that default to 1080i/p when 720p gives better results. Usually, the opposite is the case; for example, even though Uncharted supports 1080i/p (and I played it on a 1080i-only Sony XBR CRT), Naughty Dog explicitly stated that it would look better at 720p, and that's the resolution it defaulted to when I replayed it on a 1080p Aquos.

 

[grandmaster]

Conversely though games with native 1080p modes actually have smoother performance running at 720p. Off the top of my head: WipEout HD/Fury, NBA Street Homecourt, FIFA Street 3 (I think) Marvel Ultimate Alliance, even Ridge Racer 7. I won't include Full Auto 2 as nobody will be playing that in their right mind any way

Some 720p games that scale via software also kick in with the 1080p mode engaged meaning the game is being upscaled then downscaled on many displays.

Even if you have a bog standard Euro spec "HD ready" spec HDTV at 1366x768, your PS3 will most likely auto lock-on at 1080i, thus invoking the 1080p mode and any performance drawbacks plus putting you at the mercy of the set's deinterlacer which has a strong possibility of killing any additional resolution you may glean from downscaling 1080p.

So personally, I would be running PS3 at 720p and only invoking the 1080p mode when a) the game supports it and b) when the performance drop (if any) is worth the additional resolution and most importantly, c) if - to your eyes - it looks and feels better.

Whichever way you slice it, the lack of provision of a quality onboard scaler is a pain in the arse. And once again, the notion that Sony would release an HD console that doesn't work in HD on all HDTVs is absolutely remarkable and staggering when you think about it regardless of whether it's an all-too-easily dismissed minority or not. Then again, Sony is a very weird company when it comes to HD. Many of their Euro HD camcorders will only work at 1080i50, which isn't helpful when I want to view my AVCHD footage on my US PS3 (it doesn't work).

 

[habbe]

Some 720p games that scale via software also kick in with the 1080p mode engaged meaning the game is being upscaled then downscaled on many displays.

I have never seen this happened in my game library (about 20 games). i've seen this in the xmb or when playing bluray discs on a hdready display, but blurays in my opinion looks better in 1080I on a 720P display.

I my experience the ps3 is in no need of a scalar as long as you stick to hdready or better. (or i might just say hdmi but i'm not sure if there are any not hdready displays with hdmi ports.)

 

[grandmaster]

Yes, depending on your display, it may well have a "smart" deinterlacer that will re-constitute 24fps Blu-ray content to look progressive and in those circumstances the additional resolution will tell.

 

[Rolf N]

Even if you have a bog standard Euro spec "HD ready" spec HDTV at 1366x768, your PS3 will most likely auto lock-on at 1080i, thus invoking the 1080p mode and any performance drawbacks plus putting you at the mercy of the set's deinterlacer which has a strong possibility of killing any additional resolution you may glean from downscaling 1080p.

This is true for the XMB and video, but games overwhelmingly switch down to 720p. It's up to the developer to prioritize the resolutions enabled in the system (enabled through auto-detection or manually picked by the user). I'm not aware of any PS3 game that would default to 1080i over 720p if both resolutions are enabled though (I'm sure some exist, somewhere out there).

Of course there are people who deliberately disable 720p output to force compatible games into 1080i mode. Some can be hard to convince that 720somethingsomething can be a better choice than 1080somethingsomething. But if you just leave it alone at what it auto-detected, you shouldn't have an issue with game resolutions.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Of course there are people who deliberately disable 720p output to force compatible games into 1080i mode. Some can be hard to convince that 720somethingsomething can be a better choice than 1080somethingsomething. But if you just leave it alone at what it auto-detected, you shouldn't have an issue with game resolutions.

Well, for the majority of uses. 1080i is indeed superior visually to 720p. Assuming a halfway decent HDTV, 1080i is indistinguishable from 1080p. Apparently just the PS3 has a problem with 1080i/p not always looking better than 720p.

Regards,
SB

 

[Squilliam]

Well, for the majority of uses. 1080i is indeed superior visually to 720p. Assuming a halfway decent HDTV, 1080i is indistinguishable from 1080p. Apparently just the PS3 has a problem with 1080i/p not always looking better than 720p.

Regards,
SB

I turned that setting off on my PS3 when I switched it back to component (The AMD HTPC and Sky demand the only two HDMI ports I had, damnit), so on a top end Bravia I could be better off with that setting enabled on the PS3 or would the PS3 be too much of a let down there?

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I turned that setting off on my PS3 when I switched it back to component (The AMD HTPC and Sky demand the only two HDMI ports I had, damnit), so on a top end Bravia I could be better off with that setting enabled on the PS3 or would the PS3 be too much of a let down there?

Grandmaster has much more experience with a PS3 than me, I'd go with his recommendations. I only have experience with friends PS3's and reports from other PS3 users. But it sounds like for most cases 720p is best, and enable 1080p for certain games. I just feel sorry for the folks who have older "HDTV" ready sets that do 1080i with no 720 option. And thus have to fall back to 480p. And I know quite a few of them.

As someone noted before quite a lot of people expect their TV to last them 10+ years.

Regards,
SB

 

[Squilliam]

Grandmaster has much more experience with a PS3 than me, I'd go with his recommendations. I only have experience with friends PS3's and reports from other PS3 users. But it sounds like for most cases 720p is best, and enable 1080p for certain games. I just feel sorry for the folks who have older "HDTV" ready sets that do 1080i with no 720 option. And thus have to fall back to 480p. And I know quite a few of them.

As someone noted before quite a lot of people expect their TV to last them 10+ years.

Regards,
SB

Thanks, yeah I think 720P is best. I remember watching the Sky when it was set to 1080i and the whole experience was kind of unsettling for reasons I can't quite explain. Its probably an excellent setting for horror movies, but even then I don't think I could tolerate it very well.

 

[Rolf N]

Well, for the majority of uses. 1080i is indeed superior visually to 720p. Assuming a halfway decent HDTV, 1080i is indistinguishable from 1080p. Apparently just the PS3 has a problem with 1080i/p not always looking better than 720p.

Regards,
SB

For 1080p content at 30fps, you have a point. However, most games don't render in 1080p. Most games render in 720p or even smaller resolutions and any theoretically higer-quality resolution they can output at is the result of software scaling from the same 720p-at-best source resolution.

Assuming any HDTV, decent or otherwise, the approach of scaling a 720p framebuffer to 1080p, dropping half of the lines in transit, then deinterlacing it and scaling it a second time to native panel resolution inside the TV reduces quality versus just transferring the frames as rendered into the TV at full resolution and framerate and scaling them exactly once right there.
And that's just the plain transmission loss, before you even consider how scaling on the PS3 always costs you space in memory and more cycles. Case in point: Burnout Paradise/PS3. If you force it into 1080i mode, it scales from a 1280x720 render to a 960x1080 output buffer, i.e. it throws away horizontal resolution as a first step, because that's how it can stay within given memory constraints.

Spoiler

Owners of these particular tube EDTVs that for some reason accept 1080i signals would be better served with plain 480p, if only the games cranked up the AA/AF settings in that resolution, which unfortunately they usually don't.

 

[grandmaster]

No, the programmers told me in person that Burnout Paradise is simple scaled 720p. You'd want to be talking about games like Killzone 2, Uncharted etc.

 

[Rolf N]

No, the programmers told me in person that Burnout Paradise is simple scaled 720p. You'd want to be talking about games like Killzone 2, Uncharted etc.

And I'm telling you it's scaled to 960x1080. From a 720p render. The two statements don't contradict each other.

Besides, I have an excellent source on this, too.

 

[grandmaster]

Fair dos - nice spot. I asked them about native 960x1080 and got a blank stare back.

 

[Arwin]

Yes. What grandmaster means is something else, i.e. setting the Render output to a different resolution which is what Uncharted does - render to a 960x1080 buffer, rather than upscale a 720p image. They only put that in the U.S. version by the way (added at the last minute), the PAL version always outputs a 720p image. Europe practically doesn't have any 1080i only TVs.

One thing that I noticed about 1080i mode on my TV is that there is much more color banding.

 

[habbe]

Well, for the majority of uses. 1080i is indeed superior visually to 720p. Assuming a halfway decent HDTV, 1080i is indistinguishable from 1080p. Apparently just the PS3 has a problem with 1080i/p not always looking better than 720p.

I can see the problem with 1080I due to ps3:s scaling, What is the problem with 1080P ?.

I just feel sorry for the folks who have older "HDTV" ready sets that do 1080i with no 720 option

Actually i don't think it exists any "hd ready" branded sets that don't support 720P. But for those with 1080I does have to rely on ps3:s not so good scaling.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

I can see the problem with 1080I due to ps3:s scaling, What is the problem with 1080P ?.

I'd refer back to grandmaster's post about it, appears to be a lot more up/down scaling involved than needs to be.

Actually i don't think it exists any "hd ready" branded sets that don't support 720P. But for those with 1080I does have to rely on ps3:s not so good scaling.

Actually more than you might think. Although this may be limited to the US and Japan. Or any NTSC territories. I still know a lot of people with 1080i sets with no support for 720p. And they don't plan on upgrading their TVs for quite a few years yet.

Perhaps things are different here, but many people expect their TV to last them 10+ years.

Regards,
SB

 

[Crossbar]

Actually more than you might think. Although this may be limited to the US and Japan. Or any NTSC territories. I still know a lot of people with 1080i sets with no support for 720p. And they don't plan on upgrading their TVs for quite a few years yet.

The label HD-ready has a different meaning in the US and Europe.

The EICTA HD ready specifications and the concept of the in-store label are based on agreements made between over 60 broadcasters and manufacturers of the European HDTV Forum at its second session in June 2004, held at the Betzdorf, Luxembourg headquarters of founding member SES Astra.[2]

which has the following minimum requirements:

HD capable inputs accept the following HD video formats:
o 1280x720 @ 50 and 60Hz progressive (“720p”), and
o 1920x1080 @ 50 and 60Hz interlaced (“1080i”)

while in the US:

In the USA, "HD Ready" refers to any display that is capable of accepting and displaying a high-definition signal at either 720p, 1080i or 1080p using a component video or digital input, and does not have a built-in HD-capable tuner.