3D Gaming*

[makattack]

I was in the store today and discovered there (at least) 8 models of 3D televisions displayed, ranging from 1450 to 3000 euros. I asked to test the 3000 one, a Samsung, as it had Monsters vs Aliens and animated films tend to be far and away the best showcase/quality (my dad had come across this weeks earlier than me and tried it all on his own by the way)

I happened into my local big box store in the Northeastern US (a Best Buy in Boston), and walked by the entrance to the stores "Magnolia" room where they showcase their high-end products in a darkened, comfortable home theater like environment.

I was somewhat amused when I saw a gentleman take a seat in a setup with a 60" Samsung 8000 series 3D LCD with edge LED lighting, just as I was heading for one of the two seats. Because I'm an insecure American, I decided I didn't want to share the other seat with him and observed -- even though each seat had a shutter glass tethered to it.
Playing was a 3D version of Monsters vs. Aliens, I believe -- haven't seen it, but it was definitely a Pixar film. I didn't have to wait long for my turn, he put the glasses on, looked at the screen and promptly took them off. Odd, I thought... after he walked away, I had a go, and quickly discovered why: both sets of LCD glasses had no charge to them! I really don't know how they expect to sell these things to the masses when they require this much... maintenance.

 

[patsu]

I understand that standing in one place in front of the TV gives a good 3D effect, but I’m talking about the advantage that videogames have that movies don’t and I think developers should take advantage of that creating new gameplay, a simple demo of what I’m talking about would be a cube floating on the center of the screen, with 3D without head tracking it doesn’t matter where you move in your room you will always get the same angle as if you where in front of the TV

That's not true. If you move behind the cube, you'll see the back of the cube. If you move in front of the cube you'll see the front view, just like what Johnny Lee did as he moves from side to side. The TV is your window into that room and cube.

It's up to the developer to program it.

Also head tracking only applies to one player's perspective.

I had a go, and quickly discovered why: both sets of LCD glasses had no charge to them! I really don't know how they expect to sell these things to the masses when they require this much... maintenance.

Happened to me twice. They left the glasses on for too long. Supposed to last 100 hours of use.

 

[Alucardx23]

That's not true. If you move behind the cube, you'll see the back of the cube. If you move in front of the cube you'll see the front view, just like what Johnny Lee did as he moves from side to side. The TV is your window into that room and cube.

It's up to the developer to program it.

Also head tracking only applies to one player's perspective.

I don’t understand what part of what I’m saying is not true to you :smile:. In the example I gave I just replaced the flat 2D circles from the head tracking demo with something with volume that takes better advantage of the Stereoscopic image, but its the same principle, you appreciate de object in 3D moving around the TV using head tracking.

 

[patsu]

I don’t understand what part of what I’m saying is not true to you :smile:. In the example I gave I just replaced the flat 2D circles from the head tracking demo with something with volume that takes better advantage of the Stereoscopic image, but its the same principle, you appreciate de object in 3D moving around the TV using head tracking.

How do you see the back of the object using just head tracking ?

 

[Alucardx23]

How do you see the back of the object using just head tracking ?

Ok I see, you can’t, only the upper, down, left and right face, unless you rotate the cube using hand gestures in case of Natal/Move or the joystick. Imagine an on-rails shooter using 3D and Headtracking, you could really get behind cover or look at the edge of the wall.

 

[patsu]

Or you just walk behind the object, like what everyone does today.

You perceive the object in 3D as you walk.

 

[Alucardx23]

Or you just walk behind the object, like what everyone does today.

You perceive the object in 3D as you walk.

Its not the same if you physically get behind cover, I think it’s more immersive that way. For Natal that would be a good and impressive way to do a casual shooter, something like timecrisis with 3D + Head tracking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6Pr82BhrsQhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXtL5kS5odo

 

[patsu]

It depends on what you want to do.

In a 3D landscape, you can't turn it using Move/Natal/Wiimote+ per se. You see the depth and volume of the entire level, and walk/fly in it. You can gauge jump distance and throw distance better.

With a hand-held object, I think stereoscopic 3D is less useful -- unless you want to throw the object (e.g. shooting a basket ball).


With head tracking, the head movement can be mapped to the camera, the reticule or something else in the 3D world. I believe Metal Gear Online in the arcade will support this: http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/02/22/video-metal-gear-solid-arcade-3d-in-action/


Despite all these features, you will need to walk to see the back of, say, a building.

 

[patsu]

Speaking of glasses, we spoke about this concept before:
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20100604/183197/

Sony Computer Science Laboratories (Sony CSL) Inc showcased a device to track the movement of human eyes at Open House 2010, which took place May 28, 2010.

The device, which was prototyped in collaboration with the University of Tokyo, was designed for lifelogging. The device measures human eye movement. And, by associating it with the lifelog data collected by the camera embedded in the device, the user's objects of interest can be determined.

"It is not a full-scale eye tracker," Sony CSL said. "It is small enough to be attached to glasses."

..

"It is technically possible to embed the device in the frame of glasses," the company said.

 

[ERP]

I was thinking it would be truly impressive to se a combination of head tracking like the video bellow and 3D, now that would be something else, that’s something impossible to do in movies but easy in games, that should be the way to promote 3D in games not doing the same thing movies are doing, with head tracking it would complete the window effect that current 3D without head tracking cant do.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd3-eiid-Uw

You would think this, but I've tried it, and it's less effective than you might think. It certainly adds something, but it's not a lot better than just stereo.
I suspect the issue is that the brain prefers the stereo depth cue and it supercedes the motion based ones.

 

[slider]

Speaking of glasses, we spoke about this concept before:
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20100604/183197/

Not much more detail here but as I saw it the other day I thought I'd post it too.

(Although it does, of course, link back to your source!)

 

[Alucardx23]

You would think this, but I've tried it, and it's less effective than you might think. It certainly adds something, but it's not a lot better than just stereo.
I suspect the issue is that the brain prefers the stereo depth cue and it supercedes the motion based ones.

What kind of content did you tried?

 

[patsu]

So... I went around town checking out 3DTVs: Samsungs, Panasonics and Sonys.

[Takes a deep breath]

I am totally sold by Panasonic's Plasma 3DTV. Holy Sh*t, the Coral Wonderland demo is stunning ! It sounds cliche but I really do feel like scuba diving while the camera pan around underwater. It's like I have this tropical fish tank in the TV. All I'm missing were the mouth piece, other scuba gears, and some salt water to pour over me.

I c-a-n-n-o-t wait to play MotorStorm on this thing, or GT5 or KZ3.

My wife liked the beach volley ball demo better. She said it's like being there watching the competition. It is clear as day-and-night that 3D is more stable on Panasonic's Plasma TV, followed by Sony, then Samsung (which has noticeable flicker even @ 240Hz).

The only bad part is the Panasonic 3D glasses suck. Its bridge is too small, like someone pinching on my nose the whole time. Sony's glasses is the most comfortable.

I think if they make smaller Panasonic 3DTV, I'd just buy one and use it as a monitor. Does that work ?

EDIT: The stupid part is Samsung's 3D glasses and Panasonic 3D glasses are incompatible. Have to wear them upside down to see the other vendor's screen. If Sony's glasses use the same "layout" as Panasonic's, then it would be perfect.

 

[Graham]

Do you know what specifically it was that made the panasonic so much better? Or was it simply the content and setup?

I imagine plasmas do handle the rapid left/right switching a little better than lcds.

 

[patsu]

Demo guy said it's properly calibrated. For me, I find Sony's 3DTV "too sharp/bright". Also, in some scenes, if I focus hard, I can see some subtle "ripple" (Not exactly flicker). This is the only difference.

The Panasonic unit I saw has just the right amount of brightness and definition. The image doesn't appear to flicker. It's almost like watching a regular 2D TV -- plus depth (There is still a tiny bit of "movement" but it's inconsequential).

I need to do some read-up. Right now, I think Panasonic is the 3DTV king. I may visit SonyStyle tomorrow to double check (and thrash talk the Sony demo guy). Let's see what he says.

EDIT: If you guys checked out Panasonic's Plasma TV, let me know what you think.

 

[Nesh]

I am interested to hear impressions as well. I am planning to buy one and I have to know which is the best

 

[Alucardx23]

I am interested to hear impressions as well. I am planning to buy one and I have to know which is the best

Your best option for 3D is plasma, I tried the Samsung PN50C8000 (Plasma) and the Samsung UN55C7000 55 (LED-LCD), sometimes a little bit of ghosting is present on LCD that I never saw on Plasma, also after 15 min of testing the LCD when I took off the glasses I felt dizzy, that did not happen with plasma, the only thing I noticed better on LCD was higher brightness. If you want to know more I recommend this article.

http://www.best-3dtvs.com/guides/plasma-vs-lcd-3d-tv/

 

[patsu]

The (over)brightness is what kills the 3DTV effect, IMHO. Too glaring. It's the first thing I noticed in both Sony and Samsung units (immediately). It's uncomfortable.

The other effects are more subtle and you may need to look for them (depending on your eyes).

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Hmm, the Pana 3D plasma I've seen on online shops costs about 3 times as much as a regular 50" model. They need to make some money, okay, but that is still too much. Maybe in 2 years...

 

[patsu]

LCD/LED TVs are definitely cheaper (especially the low end ones if you're talking about 3X price difference). That's why they dominate the market. Then again, Plasma TVs survive for a reason.

I think the 50" Pana I saw was $2500. I bought my HDTV @ $2200 and it's not as good as this one. Can't find a smaller Plasma to use as monitor though.