Alan Wake: Microsoft preparing to leave PC gamers behind (again)

[obonicus]

I meant older -and- used together.

And you're buying used games over Steam?

 

[_xxx_]

No, on Amazon as already mentioned. Older games over Steam, the most comfortable option for me.

 

[Jack_Tripper]

I think we're getting way off topic here, but I'd like to say a couple of things, from the standpoint of a developer who got out of PC game development specifically because of the piracy rate,:

There is tons of real world data that supports that PC piracy is easily the number one reason for former, largely, PC developers jumping ship to the console market, I'd personally site my reasons for jumping ship (and I went to the cell-phone gaming business) - was that combined with a faltering gaming (and world) economy....I personally saw the light of selling more games at $2 - $5 a piece than a handfull at $50-$60....I may go back someday, but not anytime soon. But I digress, it was still the piracy that just outright disgusted me and prompted me to leave.

If you don't believe this, or don't acknowledge it in some way - you are either completely insane or totally daft. There are several developers on this board that will tell you over and over again just how rampant and damaging piracy has been to the PC gaming industry. It forces your hand and drives you to extremes (like DRM) which ultimately doesn't work - and adds expense to your development - which eats your profit margin and then...yada yada yada....Blackberry and Iphone apps start looking fantastic

Console Piracy does exist - but not to the degree that PC piracy does. The PS3 appears to be the most secure at this point, but it's so expensive to develop for it...it evens out. The Xbox - while still more secure a platform than the PC - is easier to "mod" - but you almost always loose connectivity to XBLive - and why the hell would you want a 360 without live support - half the advantage to most current games are achievements and multiplayer support, not to mention DLC and lets not forget social interaction...joe average consumer won't go out and risk getting their console (not account - console) banned from Xbl. Yes, I know you can get mod-chips that have toggle switches...but you still don't have xbl capability when playing those ISO's and those devices are more expensive anyway - it would take a very very niche group of individuals to go out and spend $400 on a console, another $200 for such a mod to risk making the original investment worthless.

And this isn't a new thing - I think the last real console that had real versatility for "modding" was the original playstation - I'll be honest, I had mine modded...I did it because I wanted to play games from Asia, it was cheap and easy - and as a side effect, I was able to play ISO's - never really did...but i could. But even that lasted a year until Square figured out how to disallow playing on consoles with mod-chips....so again, you're still looking at a platform with a relative amount of security - even with it's flaws.

I for one am sad to see the PC transition from a full time-gaming platform. I'll give you an example why - Street Fighter 4. Sure, I can get it one consoles, but the reality is - while I still want to play this on my bigscreen TV with a controller - I can still do it and make it look better with my PC. I have a 70" 1080p LCD - the game looks better running in native rez than it does in 720p...the only way I can do that is with a PC - because a console sure as hell can't.

/end rant

Jack

 

[obonicus]

No, on Amazon as already mentioned. Older games over Steam, the most comfortable option for me.

Right. I was referring to your mentioning buying used games on Amazon and old games on steam as being the same thing. That's why I said that old and new are different. Anyway.

 

[obonicus]

And this isn't a new thing - I think the last real console that had real versatility for "modding" was the original playstation - I'll be honest, I had mine modded...I did it because I wanted to play games from Asia, it was cheap and easy - and as a side effect, I was able to play ISO's - never really did...but i could. But even that lasted a year until Square figured out how to disallow playing on consoles with mod-chips....so again, you're still looking at a platform with a relative amount of security - even with it's flaws.

It's difficult to talk about modding consoles, though, we have little data. And even the data we have is contradictory. The Wii is easily softmodded. But piracy doesn't seem to be a major problem. R4s and similar products for the DS are easy to use and fairly cheap. In general, DS software makes pubs and Nintendo money (a possible exception is that people have been claiming that the recent DS GTA was more heavily pirated than the norm, and that affected sales -- but I haven't seen anything beyond conjecture for that -- but still Nintendo cracks down very hard on R4-alikes). On the other hand, the PSP is also fairly easily softmodded and there pubs DO complain bitterly about piracy. It's the only platform beyond PC that I've seen publishers complain about. Low game sales with fairly high PSP sales might bear this out, though. And the PS2 was fairly easy to chip -- in developing markets I'm sure this hurt their sales, but it's not like they were going to sell a ton of games in these markets anyway.

 

[I.S.T.]

PS2s also have softmod capability, though that is fairly recent... Circa 2007 or so. Doesn't work on the latest PS2s as well.

 

[_xxx_]

Right. I was referring to your mentioning buying used games on Amazon and old games on steam as being the same thing. That's why I said that old and new are different. Anyway.

They are the same thing in a sense - they're both not being sold for $50+, but usually way below $20. But whatever, the point I'm trying to make is simply that new releases are way too expensive, games as well as music.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

They are the same thing in a sense - they're both not being sold for $50+, but usually way below $20. But whatever, the point I'm trying to make is simply that new releases are way too expensive, games as well as music.

To the consumer it's certainly similar. To a dev however, a used game on Amazon and a discounted game on Steam (assuming the same price for both) is about as different as you could get.

Regards,
SB

 

[Silent_Buddha]

It's difficult to talk about modding consoles, though, we have little data. And even the data we have is contradictory. The Wii is easily softmodded. But piracy doesn't seem to be a major problem. R4s and similar products for the DS are easy to use and fairly cheap. In general, DS software makes pubs and Nintendo money (a possible exception is that people have been claiming that the recent DS GTA was more heavily pirated than the norm, and that affected sales -- but I haven't seen anything beyond conjecture for that -- but still Nintendo cracks down very hard on R4-alikes). On the other hand, the PSP is also fairly easily softmodded and there pubs DO complain bitterly about piracy. It's the only platform beyond PC that I've seen publishers complain about. Low game sales with fairly high PSP sales might bear this out, though. And the PS2 was fairly easy to chip -- in developing markets I'm sure this hurt their sales, but it's not like they were going to sell a ton of games in these markets anyway.

I think one of the reasons that Wii isn't pirated as much is just due to majority of the audience that owns a Wii. I know quite a few households with a Wii where the main user of the console doesn't even know what a torrent is. And ones that DO know what a torrent is, generally prefer to game on X360/PC/PS3...

It's a bit of over generalization I'm sure. But I'd argue that the greater majority of people that own a Wii are also those that aren't as technically inclined/computer savvy/etc. as PC users or following somewhat distantly after PC users, PS3/X360 users.

To clarify when I say technically inclined/computer savvy, I mean those that would take the time to actively search for methods of hacking/modding a console. For example a thirty something mother with a Wii for Wii fit and her children is much less likely to try to mod the Wii, than say a 17 year old using a PC/X360/PS3.

Regards,
SB

 

[L. Scofield]

I think more PC developers should use FADE as DRM. Arma2 is great example in recent use.

 

[Kaotik]

I think more PC developers should use FADE as DRM. Arma2 is great example in recent use.

I'm not sure what you mean, reportedly there is working cracks for it, has been for some time

 

[L. Scofield]

I'm not sure what you mean, reportedly there is working cracks for it, has been for some time

nope. the game let's you play but the mechanics are borked. For example, the aiming. Even if you use the iron sights and zoom in in prone position, you still miss the target by 3 feet

FADE is quite genius xD

 

[Silent_Buddha]

The fade system has been successfully cracked for a multitude of games. ArmA II one just recently appeared in the past couple days.

So far protections like FADE and Tages have served to delay a crack at most by a week to two weeks depending on how high profile the game is. And 100% working crack by a few days more at most if some triggers were missed.

So far the only actual working protections are those that require online verification to play and that check file integrity when connecting online to see if any files have been modified. And so far that's only been MMOs.

I think Blizzard is wanting to do a similar MMO-esque protection scheme for SC2. Although I don't think they are quite prepared to require single-player games to connect to Battlenet in order to play just yet. I have a feeling it'll still be limited to multiplayer.

The sooner effective pirating countermeasures are employed (without being too onerous, 3 install limit? seriously?) or the sooner people stop pirating, the sooner large devs/publishers might be convinced to invest heavily in PC gaming again.

Regards,
SB

 

[_xxx_]

To the consumer it's certainly similar. To a dev however, a used game on Amazon and a discounted game on Steam (assuming the same price for both) is about as different as you could get.

Regards,
SB

I'm talking about the consumers, see above. Consumers are obviously buying games at that price point without bothering to pirate them, while way less people will buy a $50+ game. Talking about myself, I seldomly ever buy a new release in retail although I have enough money - I just see no justification for such pricings.

As a dev, I'd rather sell 100000 copies for $20 each than 5000 copies for $50 each (while haveing it pirated to no end in the latter case). Go figure.

Same goes for music, a CD should not cost more than $5. And even that would be enough to be profitable. Trying to offset low sales by totally ridiculous prices is the main cause for piracy.

 

[_xxx_]

On DRM: the very best DRM out there would be more reasonable prices. Quite simple actually.

 

[I.S.T.]

Same goes for music, a CD should not cost more than $5. And even that would be enough to be profitable. Trying to offset low sales by totally ridiculous prices is the main cause for piracy.

let me guess, that price is based off of how much it costs to print a CD, and not including the production, recording and writing costs, right?

 

[_xxx_]

No, including all that and advertizing etc. The recording is usually paid for by the band anyway, as well as video production - from the contract money. The exception are the manufactured flicks like boybands, Brittney and such - there the company pays all that but also takes all the profits.

I am a long-time musician, have a few records behind me and know many people from the industry, I'm not talking out of my arse here. Try to look for an example of a usual contract for a non-superstar band, you'll get sick just by reading it. In short it reads like "we do nothing and pay nothing but the entrance money for the contract, you do it all and pay for everything and maybe you'll get 5 cents per sold CD. If you're lucky and play 100% by our rules".

Keep in mind that by buying a CD 50% of that money is abused for subsidizing countless useless boybands, "american Idols" and such crap. Because that's 90% of what those companies want to do, plastic packaging for fluffy mass-produced crap which costs way less than a band and makes less headache because you're dealing with a bunch of mindless slaves there. And sometimes it becomes big and profitable like N'Sync or such.

 

[Jack_Tripper]

On DRM: the very best DRM out there would be more reasonable prices. Quite simple actually.

You're dreaming now, it's pure fantasy to think that if something were cheaper, it'd be stolen less. That somehow altruism between thief (and that's what they are) and legitimate property owners would just magically happen. Look at shrink in supermarkets for small ticket items like candy and gum...how many people even accidently steal stuff like that and think "eh...it was only .50 cents, what does it matter."

The simple fact of the matter is, you have no right to tell anyone who produces something how much it should or shouldn't cost. As a consumer, the real power you have is choose not to buy something to protest it's cost. The problem is, the microwave dinner, MTV watching pre-apocalyptic generation has absolutely no respect for this and thinks they're entitled to anything they want just beause they want it. The mentality should be - I protest the price - so I won't give you my money...but they lack the resolve of their convictions and want whatever it was anyway...and then not have to pay for it. This isn't protest...this isn't a stand against some company because it's charging unfair pricing...it's outright theft, and even if the thief did have some real legitimate beef - their legitimacy just flies out the window. The reality is, they steal because they fancy themselves Robin Hood - where in reality, they're only driving up development costs and end-user pricing for everyone else. And your answer to that is for the publisher to lower it's price? I think not.

Jack

 

[Jack_Tripper]

No, including all that and advertizing etc. The recording is usually paid for by the band anyway, as well as video production - from the contract money. The exception are the manufactured flicks like boybands, Brittney and such - there the company pays all that but also takes all the profits.

I am a long-time musician, have a few records behind me and know many people from the industry, I'm not talking out of my arse here. Try to look for an example of a usual contract for a non-superstar band, you'll get sick just by reading it. In short it reads like "we do nothing and pay nothing but the entrance money for the contract, you do it all and pay for everything and maybe you'll get 5 cents per sold CD. If you're lucky and play 100% by our rules".

Keep in mind that by buying a CD 50% of that money is abused for subsidizing countless useless boybands, "american Idols" and such crap. Because that's 90% of what those companies want to do, plastic packaging for fluffy mass-produced crap which costs way less than a band and makes less headache because you're dealing with a bunch of mindless slaves there. And sometimes it becomes big and profitable like N'Sync or such.

But you're making the mistake of thinking that your musical preference is somehow relavent to that discussion. There are more people buying terrible shit like that than people buying music you may prefer. Taste and style have nothing to do with making money - you'll learn that someday.

Jack

 

[Kaotik]

Jack_Tripper, you do know that people who download illegaly music actually buy a lot more albums legimately too, than average persons, right?
Having lower prices could encourage them to download less and buy even more easily, and I'm quite positive this actually applies to movies and games too, not just music