Other question for the same PS3 is always the same SPE(s) dedicate to OS, or these change after reboot?
Digital Foundry tech analysis channel at Eurogamer
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Other question for the same PS3 is always the same SPE(s) dedicate to OS, or these change after reboot?
This post from archie4oz seems to imply this is from the firmware, not slim specific.
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1322997#post1322997
PPU bottlenecked, not SPU bottlenecked. You could probably stall all SPUs for...hmm...3-5ms(*) at any given point and not see a difference.
(* total guess)
It's hard for me to imagine any software being written so efficiently that the physical location of a given SPU could result in a perceptible performance penalty.
I really like the last digital foundry article and its take about our consoles reliability. I find the approach really journalistic (as usual) instead of living from rumors and reports Granmaster interviewed independant persons in the form of people from a repair chop, responses he were given are interesting.
Kudos Granmaster good job.
the article is here
Kudos Granmaster good job.
the article is here
grandmaster
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Thanks, I'm sure there'll be plenty of cries of "teh bias" and it's always difficult to handle a subject like this. I was pretty appalled at the notion of simply binning off my two 360s, even though I had a replacement. Going into that repair centre and seeing the small industry repairing these things has become was a bit of an eye opener and I knew I had to write about it.
It seems we are moving into a culture where consumer electronics are disposable and it galls me to be honest. The repairman was essentially calling it "wear and tear" as though these machines are designed to be disposable and replaceable - at the consumer's expense. That just doesn't sit right with me and in the case of the PS3 with its UK one year warranty, it just seems to be asking for trouble.
It seems we are moving into a culture where consumer electronics are disposable and it galls me to be honest. The repairman was essentially calling it "wear and tear" as though these machines are designed to be disposable and replaceable - at the consumer's expense. That just doesn't sit right with me and in the case of the PS3 with its UK one year warranty, it just seems to be asking for trouble.
It's an excellent article. Yes people will (already have) take out the context and argue that failure rates are not 60/40 because their pet said so; but pay little attention to those people man.
*Nods* I know exactly what you mean. Over here, we have 2 years warranty by law but still, the whole "use-bin-rebuy" concept... it's completely unacceptable to me.
grandmaster
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I'm sure that the 60/40 thing will be taken out of context, but the qualifiers were highlighted - I made it clear that these guys don't do official warranty work. So seeing as the 360 has a three-year warranty vs Sony's one year warranty, the figure is hardly surprising.
Far more machines are covered by MS's own guarantee, therefore far fewer of them will end up at the unofficial repair shop. Even though this is the case, there are still far more 360s coming in to be fixed! However, it also highlights that the PS3 issue is very real, and tallies with my main point that a one-year warranty on a games console that is exhibiting these issues is somewhat inadequate.
Far more machines are covered by MS's own guarantee, therefore far fewer of them will end up at the unofficial repair shop. Even though this is the case, there are still far more 360s coming in to be fixed! However, it also highlights that the PS3 issue is very real, and tallies with my main point that a one-year warranty on a games console that is exhibiting these issues is somewhat inadequate.
They do fail due to wear and tear, but the early Xbox 360s failed for additional reasons peculiar to MS. Robbie Bach discussed the flaw in a concall with the analysts, and admitted that MS would change the design. I remember the early 360 could also scratch user discs until they changed the optical drive. The rumors and user reports were not unfounded. We should not sweep the whole thing under the carpet. Microsoft is suffering from the perception problem now -- even after they have fixed the issues.
Sony spent additional $$$ to make the PS3 robust and quiet. One of the press had it running in a suana: http://www.ps3vault.com/how-to-kill-a-ps3-console-1975 . My 20Gb ran 24/7 non-stop for 9 months straight (except for a few hanged games). It was folding whenever I was not gaming. The amount of wear and tear certainly exceeded the usual console gaming activities. Hence they are getting the goodwill.
Nonetheless, the warranty thing is a good move though. The ideal solution -- from the consumer's perspecitve -- is of course to have PS3's build quality and a long warranty
As for 60/40 split, should have asked him to breakdown the failure reasons. Things that Sony deemed not covered by warranty will naturally make it to the independent repair shop on a regional scale. There are PS3s used exclusively for folding and scientific research too (i.e., run like a server 24/7). Also I thought there was some consumer organization that looked into 360 failure ? Article would be more balanced if it includes interviews with the platform vendors to give them a chance to explain.
Sony spent additional $$$ to make the PS3 robust and quiet. One of the press had it running in a suana: http://www.ps3vault.com/how-to-kill-a-ps3-console-1975 . My 20Gb ran 24/7 non-stop for 9 months straight (except for a few hanged games). It was folding whenever I was not gaming. The amount of wear and tear certainly exceeded the usual console gaming activities. Hence they are getting the goodwill.
Nonetheless, the warranty thing is a good move though. The ideal solution -- from the consumer's perspecitve -- is of course to have PS3's build quality and a long warranty
As for 60/40 split, should have asked him to breakdown the failure reasons. Things that Sony deemed not covered by warranty will naturally make it to the independent repair shop on a regional scale. There are PS3s used exclusively for folding and scientific research too (i.e., run like a server 24/7). Also I thought there was some consumer organization that looked into 360 failure ? Article would be more balanced if it includes interviews with the platform vendors to give them a chance to explain.
grandmaster
Veteran
A PS3 used 24/7 as yours would actually be more reliable. The issue is that the joints using the lead-free solder do not like being cooled down and heated up. Yours would not have been cooling down! Sony were contacted about failure rates and warranty issues btw. When I receive a reply I will post it.
I'll just paste my reply from the Eurogamer comments:
"the installed UK bases of both systems, the fact that the damage is cumulative over time (and Xbox 360 is a year older, remember) and also the fact that 360 has a three-year warranty, while the PS3 is limited only to one year."
Yes, exactly. If you do the math, the 360's issue is way bigger. I'm willing to bet it's at least 5:1. Also, you should try to do a small article on consumer protection law, I think you'll see that most countries will allow you to force console manufacturers to repair your machine free of cost for at least 2 years. The variation in European countries lies more in when the manufacturer has the burden of proof versus when the consumer has the burden of proof.
Interesting about the pre-HDMI 360s being relatively more reliable - I have one of those near launch units and it is indeed still working, although I do take care not to use it when it's really hot in or outside. My launch PS3 was using higher fan speeds lately, but I vacuumed it, and now it's as silent as at launch.
Generally, I think this is mostly 100% the manufacturers fault. Devices like both my amps old and new, laptops and PCs shut themselves off when they get too hot. These consoles should do the same.
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I'd like to add that yes, the RSX did go 65nm before the Slim in the 80GB model, as also confirmed in the thread.
"the installed UK bases of both systems, the fact that the damage is cumulative over time (and Xbox 360 is a year older, remember) and also the fact that 360 has a three-year warranty, while the PS3 is limited only to one year."
Yes, exactly. If you do the math, the 360's issue is way bigger. I'm willing to bet it's at least 5:1. Also, you should try to do a small article on consumer protection law, I think you'll see that most countries will allow you to force console manufacturers to repair your machine free of cost for at least 2 years. The variation in European countries lies more in when the manufacturer has the burden of proof versus when the consumer has the burden of proof.
Interesting about the pre-HDMI 360s being relatively more reliable - I have one of those near launch units and it is indeed still working, although I do take care not to use it when it's really hot in or outside. My launch PS3 was using higher fan speeds lately, but I vacuumed it, and now it's as silent as at launch.
Generally, I think this is mostly 100% the manufacturers fault. Devices like both my amps old and new, laptops and PCs shut themselves off when they get too hot. These consoles should do the same.
---
I'd like to add that yes, the RSX did go 65nm before the Slim in the 80GB model, as also confirmed in the thread.
Besides heat, another problem for the 360 might be vibrations.
I install all the games I play, but noticed that some DVDs causes more noise when the machine starts up than others. My Mass Effect DVD in particular causes the whole machine to vibrate (and resonate with the DVD player it sits on top off ). This can't be good for those frail ram chip contacts.
I'll bet that a side effect of people being able to install games to HDD is going to be fewer RRODs. In part because the whole machine runs cooler when running off the HDD.
Cheers
I install all the games I play, but noticed that some DVDs causes more noise when the machine starts up than others. My Mass Effect DVD in particular causes the whole machine to vibrate (and resonate with the DVD player it sits on top off
). This can't be good for those frail ram chip contacts.I'll bet that a side effect of people being able to install games to HDD is going to be fewer RRODs. In part because the whole machine runs cooler when running off the HDD.
Cheers
Besides heat, another problem for the 360 might be vibrations.
I install all the games I play, but noticed that some DVDs causes more noise when the machine starts up than others. My Mass Effect DVD in particular causes the whole machine to vibrate (and resonate with the DVD player it sits on top off
I'll bet that a side effect of people being able to install games to HDD is going to be fewer RRODs. In part because the whole machine runs cooler when running off the HDD.
Cheers
Interesting theory. That might be another reason I've never had the problem. As my machine has been primarily a Live Arcade/Indie machine. I also play Netflix a lot more than DVD movies. I'm am a playing a disc game a lot now. It's Batman:AA, but the first thing I did before playing was install it to the hard drive. It's the first game I've ever played off the hard drive like that.
Tommy McClain
In 4 years, I've had one 360 fail on me, which was covered free under warranty and turned around in two weeks. At the time it didn't even bother me much. However, it probably would have been super annoying if I'd have just gotten a new hot game. At the time it happened I wasn't playing a whole lot. So I *have* experienced it, but nothing like these horror stories you hear. IIRC my launch unit failed after about a year, so it also means I've had a replacement unit that's been reliable for three years. A couple times it has booted to a scrambled screen, including a couple weeks ago, but rebooting has always immediately fixed the problem.
Interestingly I remember one of the early attempted RROD fixes from MS was they added that extra auxiliary heatsink on connected via heatpipes to the GPU. Back at the time there were guides around the net how to shine a flashlight in the vents and check if your unit had that fix. I did so, and my replacement unit didn't have it. But it's still been reliable for 3 years.
It sounds like a lot of the problem is lead free solder, aka it's environmental whackos fault.
Interestingly I remember one of the early attempted RROD fixes from MS was they added that extra auxiliary heatsink on connected via heatpipes to the GPU. Back at the time there were guides around the net how to shine a flashlight in the vents and check if your unit had that fix. I did so, and my replacement unit didn't have it. But it's still been reliable for 3 years.
It sounds like a lot of the problem is lead free solder, aka it's environmental whackos fault.
PC hardware has been using lead free solder joints for quite some time. However the consoles having cheap quality material, designed to be functional with minimum quality and expenses aswell as cramped space for airflow wont end well in the long run. The "low" prices comes with serious penalties. Which reminds me of when I had an Xbox and the manual said max ambient temp 30c which is low. A warm summer day the machine will be redlining the max temp barrier. And really didn't the Xbox also suffer from quite a lot of failures back then?
I remember my first Xbox (black one) died completly after about total 20 hours of use during a week in a cool environment. However I got it replaced with an Xbox Crystal and it worked for the 8 months of time I had it although with very little usage.
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