The PirateBay Trial
- Thread starter Kaotik
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Betanumerical
Veteran
They aren't in Jail right now afaik.
And most likely wont be for years to come if at all.
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.
Legend
Who's in jail? No one is. This first trial was always going to be appealed by whichever side lost, it's the lowest court. You don't seem to know what the details are.
You don't seem to be arguing with my points that theft is covered by criminal law, and copyright infringement is covered by civil law, so I guess you agree with that are and just making noises about something else? You do know the court case was a civil case brought by the media cartels for copyright infringement, not a criminal case brought by the government for theft? These are very different things.
What reality are you living in?
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And sometimes written law fails.
I don't know if your post was directed at me, but I'm not arguing about enforcing morality. Just saying that sometimes laws fail and people will break them regardless. You are right in that I could provide a good amount of funding to local legislation to get things done. Lobbying sure is the best way to do that!
Actually, it was both.
Part of it was a criminal case reported to the police by the media cartels and consequently prosecuted by government. The relevant Swedish law says something like (paraphrased) that the prosecutor shall reject a case if it is unlikely that the penalty will be [strike]less[/strike] more than 6 month imprisonment and that the prosecution shall not initiate criminal proceedings on their own initiative unless broad preventive factors require it.
In a purely civil case there would have been no criminal prosecutor, no jail, and just the matter of liability between the defendants lawyers and the plaintiffs lawyers. (In theory, I think they could have been found not guilty for the criminal part and still liable in the civil suit due to a different burden of proof.)
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Perhaps I was confused about the facts, though I can be excused for reading an article that states that they were each given a year in jail.
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/04/pirateverdict/
And this paragraph, in general:
So, I suppose I am living in the wired.com reality, which I think is congruent with 99% of the rest of the world's population. It might not be the same one that Olivia Dunham is existing in, however. Of course, each person lives in a reality that they, themselves, are certain is the only one. To each his own.
Seriously, though. Do any of you REALLY believe these guys are guiltless and engaging in morally correct behavior? Do you really believe that digital copying hurts noone?
Betanumerical
Veteran
Yes
All TBP is, is a search engine, pretty close to google, which also hosts some illegal content. But I don't see no court case being bought against google.
tongue_of_colicab
Veteran
On the other side do you think the people selling cd's and dvd's are guiltless? Do you think they are morally correct? Do you REALLY think 20 euro's for a new cd or dvd can be justified against what it would really cost to produce? Do I have to feel incorrect because I dont allow some manager to make a multi billion profit over my back? Something that has been going on for decades. Do I have to feel bad some actor cant buy a extra private jet or his 6th multi million dollar villa?
Oh im sure its hurting someone, but dont expect me to feel bad when somebody who's trying to give it to me up the ass very hard makes less money. Its not like any of these guys even has a clue what it means to live on a normal budget.
As long as they dont want to give me a fair deal I dont care if everybody downloads or not. Let them go bankrupt, maybe then they will get it.
Yes, there's nothing for them to feel guilty about.
Its their product; if you don't want to pay for it, you don't have to buy it. That doesn't mean, however, you have the right to use it because you feel its right.
Unless, of course, you're actually talking about the relatively lopsided power structure between the record labels and the artists. I'm unsure, however, how that could factor into the morality of you not paying for goods/services received without renumeration. What you're saying is "they're bad people, therefor it justifies my behavior towards them".
Are you sure you're not only considering the marginal cost, but marketing, R&D, development, etc. costs? And if you're paying 20 euros, then you're getting ripped off by somebody. (Maybe even the government). $12-15 has been the going price for CDs for quite a while here. Older stuff can be bought on Amazon for less.
You don't have to feel bad about anything that they do. You're only responsible for your own actions.
Yep, you confirmed what I thought. You simply want to dictate the "fair" price (which apparently is much less than 1H of your paid labor) and legislate your morality, while you lambast them for wanting to do the same.
Though, I suppose, you and I will never agree on this. You'll always believe you're entitled to what you believe your entitled to.
Just don't bitch when diversity in music, movies, and anything else that's digitally copyable turns to shit because nobody can make money doing it and they simply quit.
Remember, not every artist and musician is uber rich, far from it. Gigging pays crap and always will.
I actually would not be saddened if they were imprisoned. At the same time I hope that bit torrent clients are not attacked. Using them for legitimate purposes is a good thing and should be done more often as a means to minimize the costs of digital distribution.
One should not make money on a criminal enterprise and that is basically what the Pirate Bay is.
What annoys me in all this is the consumer still gets shafted, the paying consumer that is.
It should be illegal to arbitrarily set market bounds (region encoding), and the DRM ugh don't get me started. I hope the next time large legislative efforts are undertaken the legitimate consumer is treated decently at least.
One should not make money on a criminal enterprise and that is basically what the Pirate Bay is.
What annoys me in all this is the consumer still gets shafted, the paying consumer that is.
It should be illegal to arbitrarily set market bounds (region encoding), and the DRM ugh don't get me started. I hope the next time large legislative efforts are undertaken the legitimate consumer is treated decently at least.
I dunno about this. I somewhat agree, but in the case of a drug dealer I disagree. Even though our laws prohibit drug dealing these people do the capitalistic thing and risk quite a bit for their good profits. I don't disagree with them making the kind of money they do simply because there is a market for this. What I do disagree with is the illegality of the drugs in the first place... But this is getting off topic and in little to no way relates to the subject at hand.
Regarding The Pirate Bay.... If they are indeed making money hosting .torrent files for downloading and making profit from advertising on the site then I agree 100%. They shouldn't be making money off of other people's work. If it's set up to be non-profit then I've no problem with it. I'm uneducated on the matter though so am unaware if TPB's purpose is to make a profit off the website.
I've given my reasons before why I think the RIAA is evil indeed and this is in support of artists. Maybe the pirate bay should be made to pay the artists of music some of the ad revenue from its site. Same goes for movies and the respective studios, and all software as well.
Betanumerical
Veteran
How are they a criminal enterprise? they store no copyrighted content on there site.
As discussed in this thread before, pointing to (infringing) copyrighted materials can be considered infringement. You can read more related discussions about this in this thread.
In short, they showed no intent of protecting copyright. Even if they are not physically able to remove all infringing torrent files, they can at least cooperate to some extents. But they didn't even bother pretending.
But then you could consider every single search engine out there to be infringing (spelling?) copyrights
Yes, and they have been sued before. They avoid being sued by cooperate with the copyright holders' requests to remove pointers to infringing materials.
As I said, it's impossible to be perfectly done (you can still easily find infringing materials with Google or other search engines), but the intent of doing so is important. Pirate Bay, on the other hand, did not show the intent.
If they are wiling to cooperate with copyright holders to remove infringing torrents, I would support them even if they are not able to remove all infringing torrents (that would be impossible considering its size). However, what they did is to mock and ignore copyright holders requests. I think that plays a big role in why they are found guilty.
They won the case but are appealing because they want more money
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...peals-pirate-bay-casedamages-were-too-low.ars
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...peals-pirate-bay-casedamages-were-too-low.ars
