A comparison of PS3 and 360 as media players

[patsu]

There's already laws in place preventing you from copying movies whether your rent them or not. The service you outlined is not targeted at getting people to purchase digital version of something they rent. It's targeted at getting people to pay for digital copies of something they've already purchased WHICH they could already make copies of if they were allowed to. I'm not following your train of thought on this?

That's just one proposal ! Disney has a competing ecosystem on standby. Apple has its own too. And other UltraViolet members will have to improve their current system since it didn't gain any traction.

The studios simply want/needs a better controlled mechanism without losing usability = How can we continue to charge people for something they've already purchased.

... which is why in the second article I linked to, the analyst mentioned that the DD copy has to be free. ^_^

The studios have been saying the same thing since the inception of VHS and it's a complete strawman argument. What the studios are facing right now is a 'service' issue. If I can go out and rent a redbox for $1, or get an On Demand version of the same movie for $5.99, which is the consumer going to chose. The studios could solve your so called 'rental' issue by properly pricing their services and delivery methods.

VHS didn't have Internet distribution and easy ripping tools. Copies may look like crap too, unlike pristine digital version.

The studios can't control RedBox's pricing, so that issue is out of their hands. ^_^
All these activities are indeed a reflection of the studios experimenting with delivery methods, since they can't control pricing !

If I wouldn't know any better, I'd think your a shill.

This is a forum. You're welcomed to dream up any posts, as long as the moderators are ok with it.

 

[AntShaw]

... which is why in the second article I linked to, the analyst mentioned that the DD copy has to be free. ^_^

Right, and again, just why would any label or studio go through all that trouble to setup a service that would be 'free' to the end user? It's a lose/lose and it will never ever happen. This isn't about appeasing the end user, because if it was, they would say we could make legal copies of things we already purchased. Which, happens to be the same thing they are trying to accomplish with those services....by charging for that. The only way any of this makes sense, is to a studio head trying to squeeze out more $$ from their consumers instead of actually giving them what they want.

Again, to think this service could monetize 'pirates' in to paying customers is.....assinine and could only make sense to a legacy media executive.

PS - Let me guess, you also think we need SOPA/PIPA style regulation for the labels so they can end piracy too, right?

 

[patsu]

Right, and again, just why would any label or studio go through all that trouble to setup a service that would be 'free' to the end user? It's a lose/lose and it will never ever happen.

You probably have not used the "free" digital copies on Blu-ray. It's been around for a few years now. What the studios want to do is to use/generalize this as a benefit to push more movie sales.

This isn't about appeasing the end user, because if it was, they would say we could make legal copies of things we already purchased. Which, happens to be the same thing they are trying to accomplish with those services....by charging for that. The only way any of this makes sense, is to a studio head trying to squeeze out more $$ from their consumers instead of actually giving them what they want.

Again, to think this service could monetize 'pirates' in to paying customers is.....assinine and could only make sense to a legacy media executive.

I don't think the objective is to turn pirates into customers. It's simply to come up with a better mechanism to make money and not be exploited by pirates. ^_^

PS - Let me guess, you also think we need SOPA/PIPA style regulation for the labels so they can end piracy too, right?

If it makes you feel better, by all means believe whatever you fancy.

 

[AntShaw]

VHS didn't have Internet distribution and easy ripping tools. Copies may look like crap too, unless pristine digital version.

??? VCR to VCR dubbing wasn't an easy ripping tool. And back then, it WAS high quality.

The studios can't control RedBox's pricing, so that issue is out of their hands. ^_^
All these activities are indeed a reflection of the studios experimenting with delivery methods, since they can't control pricing !

You're right, they DO have control over their pricing of On Demand and licensed services, WHICH is the issue. $5.99 for a timed digital rental is absurd.

This is a forum. You're welcomed to dream up any posts, as long as the moderators are ok with it.

Fair enough....like I said...if I didn't know any better.

You probably have not used the "free" digital copies on Blu-ray. It's been around for a few years now. What the studios want to do is to use/generalize this as a benefit to push more movie sales.

That price is being fully subsidized by the purchase price of the original product. Setting up a online digital service is FAR less expensive then rolling out the in store/digital conversion service and they aren't even comparable. Then in the context of what you're speaking to, what would generate more movie sales would be to allow the end user to make their own digital copies for personal use. You already outlined earlier how the Music industry found out how DRM doesn't help but hurts their valued users. Why should the movie industry continue to try and trek down the same DRM path, which Ultra-Violet is at its core.

If it makes you feel better, by all means believe whatever you fancy.

It was a question not a statement. Again, everything you are talking about is the same stuff I've heard from Chris Dodd, the RIAA and the MPAA the last 6 months. I'm trying to understand your train of thought, and I'm not just following it. The main point I can see and follow, that we agree on, is that for any of these physical to digital purchased goods to work, it needs to be free to the end user. So why not just allow the end user to copy the movie for personal use, instead of having to go through all these DRM'ed hoops to do the same thing? Pirates are going to pirate no matter what the law says. None of these hoops are going to be able to monetize piracy. Which again, begs the question of why not giving the consumers what they want by legally allowing them to make personal copies? The only reason why is because the studios can't find a way to monetize that process. There's no other obvious reason. If there is, please enlighten me.

 

[patsu]

??? VCR to VCR dubbing wasn't an easy ripping tool. And back then, it WAS high quality.

^_^ You haven't watched copies that have been dubbed from other copies ? Plus some copies are layered over old ones. They all degrade quality. Even as a child, I could tell.

VCR to VCR dubbing is still slow by today's standards. Certainly not as easy as modern tools. Software settings are more flexible also. And distribution was difficult unlike the Internet.

You're right, they DO have control over their pricing of On Demand and licensed services, WHICH is the issue. $5.99 for a timed digital rental is absurd.

The market forces have more say in determining the final price. All they set are wholesale price. e.g., If you think $5.99 is absurd, then don't pay for it !

That price is being fully subsidized by the purchase price of the original product. Setting up a online digital service is FAR less expensive then rolling out the in store/digital conversion service and they aren't even comparable.

If they find that the digital copy has to be "free", they will think of something else. Naturally, the "free-ness" are subsidized by someone (or more than one parties) in the value chain.

Then in the context of what you're speaking to, what would generate more movie sales would be to allow the end user to make their own digital copies for personal use. You already outlined earlier how the Music industry found out how DRM doesn't help but hurts their valued users. Why should the movie industry continue to try and trek down the same DRM path, which Ultra-Violet is at its core.

Again, everything you are talking about is the same stuff I've heard from Chris Dodd, the RIAA and the MPAA the last 6 months. I'm trying to understand your train of thought, and I'm not just following it. The main point I can see and follow, that we agree on, is that for any of these physical to digital purchased goods to work, it needs to be free to the end user. So why not just allow the end user to copy the movie for personal use, instead of having to go through all these DRM'ed hoops to do the same thing? Pirates are going to pirate no matter what the law says. None of these hoops are going to be able to monetize piracy. Which again, begs the question of why not giving the consumers what they want by legally allowing them to make personal copies? The only reason why is because the studios can't find a way to monetize that process. There's no other obvious reason. If there is, please enlighten me.

Unfortunately, it is a learning process for the stakeholders. The consumers have the least risk/stake. We will be the most careless parties.

Again, DRM is not bad. It enables business models. It's stringent DRM policies that cause grief. Napster failed completely because they didn't understand this. In the end, Apple FairPlay enabled the iTunes empire.

 

[deathindustrial]

Again, DRM is not bad. It enables business models

It also destroys interoperability, creates artificial monopolies via vendor lock in, imbues a fragility to content (the DRM provider goes belly up the content is gone forever), etc. Extortion is a business model as well but I expect most people would not see that as outweighing the obvious negative effects of it on society.

In the end, Apple FairPlay enabled the iTunes empire.

That seems like a mischaracterization of why it helped iTunes. I would argue that it was not because Fairplay was seen as any less obtrusive by the end user, it was because the media conglomerates would not have licensed content for Apple to sell without restrictive DRM in place.

At the start the competition's software was a pile of suck and Apple lucked out timing wise with their advertising and stole the market. If their initial sales had not been large enough to make them the dominant portable media player the public would have been far less forgiving of their DRM as well. Being a functional monopoly as far as portable audio goes makes interoperability a much lesser concern, no?

IMHO of course.

Cheers

 

[patsu]

That seems like a mischaracterization of why it helped iTunes. I would argue that it was not because Fairplay was seen as any less obtrusive by the end user, it was because the media conglomerates would not have let Apple have the content to sell without restrictive DRM in place.

The music companies were losing ground to free download rapidly. FairPlay provides a trusted platform for the studios and Apple to work together. It has always been a trust, fairness and sustainability problem.

Initially (still?) the competition's software was a pile of suck and Apple lucked out timing wise with their advertising and stole the market. If their initial sales had not been large enough to make them the dominant portable media player the public would have been far less forgiving of their DRM as well. Being a functional monopoly as far as portable audio goes makes interoperability a much lesser concern, no?

The lenient DRM policies is one of the reasons people liked iTunes. Many other factors also contributed to iTunes' success but Apple wouldn't have any songs to sell if there was no DRM in iTunes. Their initial (song) sales would have been irrelevant.

Once the momentum is established, it became easier to convince the studios to let go of the DRM.

 

[-tkf-]

Ultraviolet is competing with ripping programs that creates the ultimate portable video formats. It requires a effort of incredible proportions if they want to compete with that, i see it as a way to control their content on the players that support it. Basicly trying to limit the damages by reducing the numbers of copies of their content. For example, i rip UP, put on a DVD for the car. That DVD is easy to share with friends and family.

Or, i copy my Ultraviolet Copy to a stick and play that in the car, friends and family can´t use that copy.

I really love this subject, it is so complex and hard to get a grasp on

Useless anecdotes, back in the VHS days plenty had giant collections of VHS copies, they would rent 5 movies (special offers), copy them and let their friends borrow them for free. Some even saw what we would call "screeners" today on VHS tapes that had been copied so many times it look like one gian blur. But they still did, that is how i saw robocop for the first time.. when i saw it at the movies it was almost like another movie

And this from techdirt shows some interesting data about the "dying" entertainment business, what i think it makes clear is that the biggest challenge for music and movies is the competition from everything called entertainment. That causes people with X amount of dollars to spread it out and compensate by using "free" stuff.

 

[patsu]

Redbox Rents its Two Billionth Disc – Gives Free Rentals to Celebrate
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...th_Disc__Gives_Free_Rentals_to_Celebrate/8950

Number two billion was a copy of ‘Drive’ on DVD. Nice to see it wasn’t something totally embarrassing!

... In case you needed another indicator of dominance for the rental kiosk chain, the company has announced its two billionth disc rental. The magic number was hit by a customer at a McDonald’s in Philomath, Oregon. Happily for that customer, assuming they were identified in some way, the magic disc was a DVD of ‘Drive,’ a movie that’s well loved by critics and fans alike.

Redbox is celebrating by giving you a free one-night movie rental on March 8th. Hit up the kiosk and type in the promotional code THANKS2U and you’ll get a free DVD for one night. If you want to go Blu-ray, you’ll get a discount that equates to the normal price of a DVD rental.

...

 

[patsu]

... and here it is, no need for users to copy DVD/Blu-ray at home (It's error prone and who has time to rip DVD/Blu-ray ?). No need for Walmart to verify users' discs in the store. And it's "free", using the existing Digital Copy mechanism already available in some Blu-rays.

Apple appears to have included Ultraviolet-like functionality with the latest Apple TV upgrade:
http://www.techofthehub.com/2012/03/apple-tv-version-5-4099-video.html

The movies app has also been upgraded. As with TV shows, you can now stream content directly from Apple’s cloud. I did find an interesting surprise trying it out. I purchased the 2009 release of Star Trek on Blu-ray which came with a digital copy on an additional physical disc. A while ago, I loaded that digital copy on my iMac. In the earlier versions of the Apple TV software, I was able to watch it via iTunes home sharing, streaming from my iMac (and iTunes had to be running). Apple outlines the process here. However, I can now stream the movie directly from Apple’s cloud. Star Trek shows up under my purchased titles and the iCloud icon appears with it. It’s just like iTunes match for music! I doubt it goes as far as iTunes music match, grabbing any movie it finds, including ripped DVDs. What Apple is doing here seems very similar to UltraViolet. Star Trek streamed in 720P and Dolby Digital (in theory it will be in 1080P from the new Apple TV). Sweet! Check it out in the video below.

...

UPDATE: All Things D has reported that due to a licensing conflict, Fox and Universal movies are not available in the iTunes store. HBO has exclusive rights for the time being.

my Blu-ray collection. Now they are online too if I buy an AppleTV. ^_^

 

[jonabbey]

I'm one of those who rips every DVD we buy. I'm scrupulous about not ripping or copying anything that I've not bought and about not distributing copies to anyone else unless I'm willing to provide the original media and delete my copies, but the convenience of being able to bring anything we've bought up on the TV through DLNA is just too valuable to me.

And I like my server and my operating system to be open source, too.

Good thing so many kids programs on Blu-Ray come with a DVD that I can easily rip. Otherwise I'd just be buying the DVD and paying less money for the privilege.

 

[patsu]

Yes sir ! The beauty of the DVD and Blu-ray model is we always have the DIY copy option. It is not mutually exclusive to whatever Apple, Sony or other studios offer. You can do both local streaming and cloud streaming (viewable outside your home) together since you paid for them already. ^_^

 

[joker454]

Maybe this is a stupid question...but I have some videos on a usb thumbdrive and I want to copy them to the 360's hdd to play them from there but I can't figure out how. Is there any simple way to do this?

 

[BRiT]

I haven't tried this but I'd think maybe you need to do it from the System Settings, Memory Devices or Storage, USB Device submenu? If there's no selection under media then there's probably some silly stupid hoop you need to jump through.

 

[AzBat]

You can't. You can only play them from the USB drive. Same thing for all media like photos & music. This is a hold over from the original dashboard. Now if you had music CDs you could rip them to the hard drive, but you can't bring already ripped songs to the hard drive.

Tommy McClain

 

[Nick Laslett]

... and here it is, no need for users to copy DVD/Blu-ray at home (It's error prone and who has time to rip DVD/Blu-ray ?). No need for Walmart to verify users' discs in the store. And it's "free", using the existing Digital Copy mechanism already available in some Blu-rays.

Apple appears to have included Ultraviolet-like functionality with the latest Apple TV upgrade:
http://www.techofthehub.com/2012/03/apple-tv-version-5-4099-video.html

my Blu-ray collection. Now they are online too if I buy an AppleTV. ^_^

This sounds absolutely brilliant to me.

I have loads of DVDs with Digital Copy which I have never done anything with. But if through my iTunes account Apple are going to give me a free iCloud versions like with music purchases, then that is great news.

I have always had to DIY the movies on PS3 Media Server, because I need the subtitles. The big flaw with iTunes is so little content has subtitles. So I've never purchased any Movie/TV content and stuck with DVDs.

I doubt the digital copies have subtitles, but at least it is a free iCloud based copy to fall back on when needed.

I wonder if I can delete the HDD version and keep the iCloud version after it has done it's matching?

 

[Arwin]

Sounds like a great idea.

For me DD remains unattractive, as I usually watch with my wife, and apart from that the quality difference both in terms of sound and video keeps standing out, we prefer English subtitles for the deaf and hard of hearing over Dutch, as we are both fluent enough in English, but my wife doesn't understand all accents equally well. Being able to read the exact English words that are spoken (which is what regular English subtitles aren't always - they keep a max number of words per second) is really great for us. But some friends aren't good enough at English, and then we want Dutch subtitles. And when the original language is different from English, we may also need Dutch subtitles. And BluRays often have several languages for childrens movies, so I can watch them in the original English, but when I watch with my son, I need Dutch voices. On BluRay, these are still 5.1 DTS, and the original sound is often Master Audio 7.1, and all that still stands out (and our Audio system isn't even that expensive - about 1000 euro all in, including the 4xHDMI input for cable, consoles, etc. that makes life so much easier).

I rent videos about 100m from here and we have our fingerprints connected to one single account (though we just pay as we get them usually anyway), so we're not that likely to give that up soon for any video service, to be honest. There's still a ways to go.

That said, if I was single or a student, I could definitely see myself rent something DD occasionally and watching HBO series on demand and such would definitely work for us too (for 15 euro we now can by the way but that's still a bit steep for us, for just HBO stuff, but we may switch from Canal+ to HBO, we'll see).

In other news, I figured out how to rip a DVD to Vita format today, and it looks pretty good - 720x480 is a pretty good match. DVD limitations in terms of compression are starting to stand out more and more though on both TV and DVD, after having watched so many stuff on BluRay. Have to watch out though - movie from DVD ended up 1.5GB, so I'm definitely hoping that by next year we'll see:

A) 64GB memory cards for 50 euro or less
B) DNLA streaming options built into the Vita
C) online video services straight to PS3 and Vita, preferably with an option to pick up where you left off no matter what the device.

 

[orangpelupa]

hello,

is there any info that in the near future the offline mediaplayer in 360 will get Kinect support?


since the metro dash update, kinect is very good at listening my voice command with broken english. Unfortunately my region is not supported by kinect so if im ONLINE, the voice command is disabled.

or is there any homebrew media player like XBMC in 360 with kinect voice command feature?

i dont mind hacking my xbox with RGH, i never use the xbox to play online anyway
the ugly lag and the subscription cost is preventing me to join xboxlive gold.

 

[-tkf-]

You can't. You can only play them from the USB drive. Same thing for all media like photos & music. This is a hold over from the original dashboard. Now if you had music CDs you could rip them to the hard drive, but you can't bring already ripped songs to the hard drive.

Tommy McClain

I am confused, if i attach a USB stick to a 360 i can not copy the contents to the harddrive?

Pictures? MP3 files? Video?

I don´t get it, sounds totally crazy

 

[joker454]

I am confused, if i attach a USB stick to a 360 i can not copy the contents to the harddrive?

Pictures? MP3 files? Video?

I don´t get it, sounds totally crazy

Yeah I'm scatching my head a bit as well over this one, especially since it's meant to be part of a media hub. Quite a curious limitation. Is there any way to get videos copied to the 360's hdd at all? I basically have moved the 360 to a spare room, a gym room of sorts, and I've encoded my P90x dvd's to h264 videos with all the crap removed, now I just want to copy them to the 360 and play them from there as needed. Thought it would be a simple thing, but oddly it's turning out to be more involved that expected!