Y'all gonna hate me :)

[Hellbinder]

Mize,

You guys ALL do the same thing. You dont go check the evidence for yourself.

So Max Payne runs in Opengl these days? Thats news to me.... (and everyone else on the planet)

The current 250mhz RadeonLE is about 5 FPS slower than the Retail 275mhz version. The 128mb 250mhz Radeon LE is 15FPS FASTER than the current retail 8500. That is a 20 FPS gain in Max Payne. Is there anyone here who actually thinks that the extra 64mb ram will give you and extra 20 FPS in toays apps?

let me ask you this, if the origional Radeon was released at 250mhz like origionally advertized, and had this extra 20FPS (15 if you like, 5 due to ram increase) on average (Maxpayne, RTCW, Q3). Wouldnt everyones view of the 8500 be much different today? It would have had the performance we all expected. Instead at the last min, mere days before release they upped the release clock speed to 275mhz and still underperformed, compared to expectations.
The benches were run in OpenGL and D3D, and the presentation happened long before the vaunted "openGL" driver fix you are talking about. Otherwise JC would have had the fixed driver before Feb 11th when he made his post.

I have done my homework on this. I am pretty confident I am right. Maybe I will find the time to completely lay out my position and the details behind it.





<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hellbinder[CE] on 2002-02-15 17:57 ]</font>

 

[Doomtrooper]

On 2002-02-15 17:23, Hellbinder[CE] wrote:
Sabastian,

Doomtrooper is PRO ATi.

What wnenever you guys need a whipping boy his name is at the top of the list or something?

ohhhh...

Ati is doing fine. They are not going anywhere. They nearly daily sign new 3rd party vendors to sell their Radeon line. Their Laptop market strength is very high.


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Hellbinder[CE] on 2002-02-15 17:26 ]</font>

Hellbinder,

Hardly,

I have had plenty of Nvidia cards and just sold my wifes Geforce 3 and still have my GTS(I did own a computer store ). I just don't like FUD being spread around, which happens far to often. People like MATT that run a pro-nvidia webpage will spend the time to troubleshoot their Nvidia issues at length, but it seems if they have any issues with ATI, its always drivers...drivers ... drivers...
Well its NOT always drivers, some motherboards required a BIOS update, some required a chipset update, some required a game patch and during my time on Rage3D 80% of the issues turned out to be user error (IRQ conflict) or not removing drivers properly.
There is some driver bugs, but then again I've NEVER seen one video card not have driver bugs. 3DFX had a great driver team and I still had the odd driver bug, nobody is perfect.

I'm a fan of whatever gives you the most VALUE for your money, with good useable features and good 2D.



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Doomtrooper on 2002-02-15 18:26 ]</font>

 

[Sabastian]

I agree that is all you here but it is mostly a bunch of idiots spreading fear uncertainty and doubt. When I first got my Geforce DDR from creative it crashed my computer for six months straight. I am sure there were others with the same sorts of problems as the driver updates slowly repaired the problems. It was over a year before the drivers stopped causing me problems at all. Also Doomtrooper makes a good point in saying that other hardware may be causing problems on people’s computers but there really is such a stink about ATi drivers that people assume this is the source of their problems when in reality it may very well be their motherboard. Anyway the point here is that this entire bad driver thing is blow WAY out of proportion. Even as we speak nvidia investors post messages in the 3D form about nvidias finances, I sure that these people are willing to give you an unbiased perspective on nvidia and their competition. I could care less about how many TNT 2’s have been sold in recent months. I am really going to be skeptical of anyone who says that they have driver issues (especially now that they HAVE solid drivers.) from here on out. I mean it I am going to school taking ISS with Cisco router course, literally surrounded by Geeks a number of them have Radeon 8500s and not one complaint from them, actually they really like the card.

Sabastian

 

[Randell]

Having owned a Savage4 I know what crap driver support is like. Owning a Radeon 8500 is nothing like owning an S4. Other than S3 employees were great in coming to the foum to talk to us, except as always happens the flames drove them away. Maybe thats why the ATI team tend to stay away, the community get what they deserve.

 

[Randell]

On 2002-02-15 07:54, Matt wrote:
1) Go for it, I still stand by those comments on those drivers I used.
2) See above.

Wow, certified technician. Want a cookie?

I just did a search at Rage3D for DAOC:

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthr...e7a5&amp;threadid=33603114&amp;highlight=DAoC

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthr...e7a5&amp;threadid=33602469&amp;highlight=DAoC

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthr...e7a5&amp;threadid=33592899&amp;highlight=DAoC

Bummer, I guess you're the only one not having problems in that game with a R8500, and I guess I'm the only one who had problems with it in DAoC. Sigh ...

P.S. Even more threads with users reporting problems with DAoC, I just listed 3 for convenience's sake.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Matt on 2002-02-15 08:05 ]</font>

Matt,

2 of those issues used DAoC as an example of where they were having problems with their set-up, not strictly speaking directly DAoC related.

The last one was the W-buffer support turns of the paper-doll issue I mentioned. Which would affect ALL cards with w-buffer support.

Hardly concrete evidence the 8500 doesn't run DAoC.

 

[Sabastian]

On 2002-02-15 07:54, Matt wrote:
1) Go for it, I still stand by those comments on those drivers I used.
2) See above.

Wow, certified technician. Want a cookie?

I just did a search at Rage3D for DAOC:

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthr...e7a5&amp;threadid=33603114&amp;highlight=DAoC

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthr...e7a5&amp;threadid=33602469&amp;highlight=DAoC

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthr...e7a5&amp;threadid=33592899&amp;highlight=DAoC

Bummer, I guess you're the only one not having problems in that game with a R8500, and I guess I'm the only one who had problems with it in DAoC. Sigh ...

P.S. Even more threads with users reporting problems with DAoC, I just listed 3 for convenience's sake.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Matt on 2002-02-15 08:05 ]</font>

It would appear matt that you are possibly one of the people I am talking about. What do you do anyway get an alias and make negative remarks about ATi drivers on an ATi fan site? Probably........yuk get a life.

Sabastian

 

[Doomtrooper]

Matt = Matt Burris

Webmaster of http://www.3dgpu.com

 

[Sabastian]

On 2002-02-15 19:42, Doomtrooper wrote:
Matt = Matt Burris

Webmaster of http://www.3dgpu.com

LOL he is probably on nvidia payroll, hehe. If not he should be by the looks of that site. I think it really wouldn't take very many screws like him with multiple aliases to spread a lot of FUD on the internet if they had a lot of time to spare. I suspect this very thing is occuring and there is real money behind it.

Sabastian

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sabastian on 2002-02-15 19:52 ]</font>

 

[Ichneumon]

While Matt and I certainly have strong differences of opinion regarding many things video card related... he doesn't deserve to be pasted with conspiracy theorys.

Matt and the folks over at 3dgpu for the most part do a good job... and while they are most definatly an Nvidia fan-site, and not really a "general" video card site they sometimes try to present themselves as, they don't maliciously go out of their way to spread FUD.

Give it a rest guys. People can have differing opinions without being payed off by one party or another involved.



_________________
Ichneumon
http://www.rage3d.com


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Ichneumon on 2002-02-15 20:07 ]</font>

 

[LeStoffer]

On 2002-02-15 19:51, Sabastian wrote:
LOL he is probably on nvidia payroll, hehe. If not he should be by the looks of that site. I think it really wouldn't take very many screws like him with multiple aliases to spread a lot of FUD on the internet if they had a lot of time to spare. I suspect this very thing is occuring and there is real money behind it.

Sabastian

/teleporting in/

I'm sorry to point this out, but allegations like this really didn't happen back in the good old days of beyond3d.

/teleporting out/

 

[Sabastian]

On 2002-02-15 20:02, LeStoffer wrote:

On 2002-02-15 19:51, Sabastian wrote:
LOL he is probably on nvidia payroll, hehe. If not he should be by the looks of that site. I think it really wouldn't take very many screws like him with multiple aliases to spread a lot of FUD on the internet if they had a lot of time to spare. I suspect this very thing is occuring and there is real money behind it.

Sabastian

/teleporting in/

I'm sorry to point this out, but allegations like this really didn't happen back in the good old days of beyond3d.

/teleporting out/

Is this what happens whenever someone suggests something such I have suggested. Granted there is no way to really prove such alligations and I wouldn't pretend to say that it isn't conspiracy oreinted but ... would all deny the possibility? I am just tired of the BS about ATi drivers. Also I am sorry for not falling in line with certain standards of the board. But although these aligations are hard to prove I still think that it is highly probable that this sort of thing Does occur,,,offhand I think NVDAs guidence calls for total dominance of the entire market by the end of 2002 which would mean no more ATi, what kind of tactics are in store? I would say the worst type. Sorry to make waves like this....I am done.

Sabastian

 

[Doomtrooper]

As much as Matt and I have had differences in the past I don't think he'd be behind the consipiracy theory scenario. There is obvious bias coming from him and has publicy admitted his bias many times towards Nvidia...he does run a Nvidia Fan Site.
All I was referring to was the lack of effort in trying to resolve some minor issues he was seeing.
Matt should relook the 8500 IMO with newer drivers , when comparing cards one should also NEVER just uninstall drivers of a another brand and put the new one in and expect things to be all Rosy. Drivers linger in the registry and even some games may need to be re-installed. No need for a format but a good registry search and system32 will go a long way.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Doomtrooper on 2002-02-15 20:40 ]</font>

 

[dksuiko]

LeStoffer,

On 2002-02-15 20:02, LeStoffer wrote:

/teleporting in/

I'm sorry to point this out, but allegations like this really didn't happen back in the good old days of beyond3d.

/teleporting out/

Definately.. These past few weeks have been mostly bickering of who favors who, whose behind-the-scenes bias, whose on the payroll, etc. You can almost open any of the larger threads in the 3D Technology and Hardware forum and find it.

-dksuiko

 

[Johnny Rotten]

Sorry to make waves like this....I am done.

Thank God.

:rollseyes:

 

[Randell]

It does take 2 or 3 or 4 or more to create a flame war.

If people dont bite, or respond to it then it doesn't happen.

When were these magical bias flame free days? Most have been pre 2000 (Dave v Nam-ng anyone?)

 

[Pete]

Reverend and ben6--I don't think the comments in this thread regarding your "boasting" were anything but good-natured kidding. Why would we hate reviewers? They have to get the card somehow to provide us with the in-depth, unbiased reviews that we frequent this forum for.

BTW, damn you two.

 

[Matt]

Randell:

I'm fully aware that a very large audience don't have problems with games. Like I've always said, there are so many variables involved when it comes to hardware/software, that it's foolish to fully judge the conditions either of them are in. Some people play a few games with their video cards, some play a ton. Those who play a ton are more likely to encounter bugs though. Then there are of course the developers, who work with the code first-hand, and they get a better idea of the states drivers are in. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) most can't comment because then that would lose any ties they may have with a company if they put them down. At this point thought, I think Carmack can pretty much get away with putting a company down.

Sebastian:

If a video card manufacturer can make you nauseated, then you really need to step back, take a deep breath, and reevaluate yourself. I mean seriously, it's just video cards, and gaming. Geez.

The whole "being paid by Company X" thing is an old trick to get under people's skins. Long time ago, it used to really bother me, but after being around for over 2 years, I've gotten to the point that I just ignore it. For a while, we've paid the site out of our own pockets, and invested well over $1,000 in the history of the site. The only compensation we get is the video cards some companies sends to us for review/preview.

You know what pays me to run 3DGPU? My passion for gaming. Try that on for size. :smile:

Doomtrooper:

Of course I read those posts, that was precisely my point I was trying to demonstrate. Some issues are bugs, but most are user errors, or a switch/command in the control panel applets that isn't set properly. Everyday at the 3DGPU forums, I see user errors there too, and then there are bugs. I get TONS of emails asking for help all the time, and most of the time it's something simple that fixes their problem. If not, I forward anything that I perceive as a bug to NVIDIA.

By the way, I'm sorry a lot of people drove you away from the 3DGPU forums. You're very opinionated and you aren't afraid to state your mind. I respect that. I see you do the same thing here, and over at Rage3D as well. At 3DGPU though, that's like setting fire to dry bushes.

As for my "obvious bias", that's an entirely different matter. I try to keep as open minded as I can. I talk to a lot of people who like ATI products and back in the days, 3dfx products. If I couldn't use it, then I would get a feel for it through others. I check the Rage3D forums a lot, and before it went down, 3dfxgamers. I've gave John R mod status at 3DGPU at one point, and ended up scaring off a lot of people (Roscoe being one of them). I didn't care, because I trust John, he's open minded as well, and isn't afraid to speak his mind as well, although he isn't bullheaded like you are. At the time, a lot of people denounced me, saying John is a 3dfz <bleep>, and for me to give him mod status makes me a 3dfx <bleep> as well. LOL, imagine that. I should've told them 3dfx paid me to do it.

I didn't give the ATI R8500 much time to work with, because I didn't feel like messing with it trying to get it to work. I did have it for about a month though, which is around the amount of time most people keep something before they decide to take it back to the store if they didn't like it. I just got DAoC at the time, and I was addicted. The last thing i want to do is have something kill off my addiction to gaming, and that's exactly what the R8500 was doing. I couldn't update the BIOS for my mobo, because Soyo hasn't released one yet. I did get the latest ALI drivers though for it. I've used Humus tweak utility as well, fiddled with it countless times, and even installed it on a clean Win98SE install. When most of the issues were present on a clean Win98SE install with no tweaks done to it, that was on an old WinXP install, then it's fair to say they were bugs.

If you read up though, you'll see that I've said that now that new drivers are out and most ATI users are reported better stability and performance, that I wouldn't mind getting the R8500 back and trying it again.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Matt on 2002-02-19 05:57 ]</font>

 

[Matt]

By the way, personally I think Rev and Ben both got a right to brag. After all, they've been around long enough in the industry for people to recognize them and give them little "gifts" such as cards or preview of a game. That keeps us going, because if we didn't get anything for our daily fascination and work, then these companies wouldn't have people reviewing their products anymore. I've been visiting Rev's site ever since the old Quake 2 days, when his site and Brett's 3Fingers site were the two I visited every single day. Them were the days.

 

[Reverend]

So you, Matt, also think I'm bragging (even though I view it as simply childish - yes, I think it's childish but I can't help it! - enthusiasm) right?

:smile:

 

[Sharkfood]

Matt-

I didn't give the ATI R8500 much time to work with, because I didn't feel like messing with it trying to get it to work

To be fair, I think you gave it a lot more time than most people would have. Especially given ya' had another card handy which didn't exhibit the same issues and worked like a charm.

I was there through the whole process at 3dgpu and can verify much of what you encountered was purely bugs/issues with the product. The 8500 had a very rocky release with crap drivers, no smoothvision and intolerant game compatibility right out of the box. Most of those issues have now been rectified through game patches, drivers and knowledge transfer of game "hacks" and the like (i.e. little known ini or config file changes to work best, homemade tv-out cable dongles and hydravision settings, etc.etc.).

From the standpoint of a gamer, I could understand all the grief new owners of the 8500 felt. It's even more trying when you have a card sitting on the desk in an anti-static bag that has no such issues, regardless of driver revision or configuration.

Just my 2 cents,
-Shark