Why Arabs Lose Wars

[DemoCoder]

The real issues are the contiguous border issue and the right of return issue. Right of return simply never will be allowed. After a two state solution, right of return to Israel would effectively remake Israel into a Palestinian state overnight.

It would be like allowing all of Mexico to return to Canada.

 

[pax]

Toatally agree with that. There can be no right of return. Israel proper is small in any case. I woudnt give up another inch of ground outside of the west bank and gaza. Heck I wouldnt give back the golan heights. But to want to keep any part of the aquifer of the west bank isnt fair...

 

[Nagorak]

Hmm, I wonder why the Arabs won during all of the crusades except for the first? How come the Arabs took over most of Spain and held it for 800 years before finally being evicted?

Honestly, why even bother posting something when it's total shit? It all comes down to technology and landscape. If Vietnam had been a desert we'd have won there too.

 

[Nagorak]

The real issues are the contiguous border issue and the right of return issue. Right of return simply never will be allowed. After a two state solution, right of return to Israel would effectively remake Israel into a Palestinian state overnight.

It would be like allowing all of Mexico to return to Canada.

A state that's entire existence is based on a theocracy or racism shouldn't exist in the first place. If they don't want a democracy that's inclusive to all, then Israel shouldn't exist period.

 

[Legion]

Its also a plain fact that occupation wont resolve the terrorist problem.

I think it is historically clear the opposite won't either.

Simply a lost cause to make me and most westerners try to believe this is a black and white issue legion. This situation has been scrutinized for years and crimes have and are being committed by both sides.

Which is not what i am trying to do at all. You are trying to equate both sides as moral equals. SUch is not true. I have provided you already with many sources.

I dont accept as do many other jewish obersvers the legal argument from the old 'british mandate'. It wasnt democratic and has long ago been revisited by un resolutions and other more legitimate obervations...

lol neither was the occupation of arabs in the area to begin with. They took it from the byzantine greeks and the jews dating way back to 636 AD.

If you look into the histories of many countries you will find they obtained lands and statehood via none democratic means. We commonly call this life.

The brit general observation about no arabs in palestine is absurd.

Because you say so?

There were small numbers of all grousp at the time... gimme numbers from real census (tho Ive seen them a few years back) and you'll see arabs living in all areas but especially jerusalem...

Really? I did mention to you the concensus of the Ottomans at the time. Feel free to look them up for yourself. You will be surprised. What reason would the general have had to lie?

You can insist on denying the palestinians their right to self determination with the resulting probs itll create in terms of terrorism and social upheaval as Israel has overwhelming power.

whoa hold on i have denied no such thing. I merely have denied many of their bogus statements. They themselves are the cause of most of their problems.

This is not much diff than kosovo with the serbs over the albanians. But they dont want to live under Israeli Rule so you'll need to accept it and be accomodating for the interest of both sides if you want peace.

Again i have said nothing concerning the correctness of Israel's response. I merely stated the jews owe them nothing.

 

[pax]

Not saying they are moral equals Im saying they both have committed crimes. Who is the worse criminal doesnt negate whatever crimes the other guy does. Its diplomatically expedient to agree to some sort of compromise and saying both have been at fault is a step in that direction.

The sooner this thing is resolved the sooner the ethnic hatreds on both sides will begin to abate. To remove as much as possible the biggest irritants is a good way to start resolving the overall prob. There is nothing that normal Palestinians can do to remove irritants. 'Stopping terrorism' is easy to ask. No one can stop it as it mostly exists at a social level. But Israel can vacate the west bank easily... Ill bet hands down a lot of the terrorism will stop once that happens. But no one can promise nothing else will happen with the level of antagonism that has been built up. It will take time... But if its still too serious a prob then palestinans can expect a clampdown at the border... and raids. But that still doesnt mean Israel cant vacate the west bank and gaza. Israel would gain the moral high ground if it did.

I didnt reference non democratic reasons to occupy the land. Lets have a democratic process decide what people wish to do in a given area. The palestinians want to run their own affairs.


The brit general observation is absurd because its annecdotal. It was plain that palestine had small populations of many groups. To say there were 4x times more jews than arabs in the bigger cities (small towns by our standards then) is simply moot argumentation. Immigration into Palestine of arabs was virtually synched with european jewish immigration... again mostly to safeguard their access to the 'dome of the rock'.

Im not saying some blame for the palestinians cant be due to their participation in wars against Israel but should they pay more than egyptians or jordanians? But a big part of solving probs is not playing the blame game. Majority of Palestinians dont expect or want to 'push israel into the sea' anymore. They simply want a democracy and self-determination...

You certainly did sound as making an overwhelming statement for the status quo. Im sorry if I misunderstood the main thrust of your arguments...

 

[Legion]

Not saying they are moral equals Im saying they both have committed crimes. Who is the worse criminal doesnt negate whatever crimes the other guy does.

It serves to demonstrate the complete imbalance of the criminal aspect concerning this issue. For a group who supposedly wants to wipe out the palestinians the jews appear to kill very little of them in comparison to the number of Jews the Palestinians kill or try to kill each year.

Its diplomatically expedient to agree to some sort of compromise and saying both have been at fault is a step in that direction.

There is no sense in taking equal responsibility in this issue. Especially when reviewing the vast criminal aspect of the palestinian camps and their clear moral degredation. This just serves to shine light on the nature of the groups the jews are dealing with.

The sooner this thing is resolved the sooner the ethnic hatreds on both sides will begin to abate.

What are you talking about? The Arabs have been attacking the jews for over 100 years. The depth of their racial issues has little to do with the arab state of palestine. Examine the reason of why they attacked the jews in 48! They were attacking simply because they wouldn't allow for a jewish state in their midst. There is no other reason. The jews didn't in anyway prevent them from having their own state. Other arabs did when they invaded in 48 and stole much of the remaining mandate of palestine.

To remove as much as possible the biggest irritants is a good way to start resolving the overall prob. their is nothign that normal Palestinians can do to remove irritants. 'Stopping terrorism' is easy to ask. No one can stop it as it mostly exists at a social level. But Israel can vacate the west bank easily...

The palestinians are clearly doing little to prevent terrorism. they are hardly outspoken against it. Their silence is nothing more than silent support of such behaviors. Lets face it. Many of the palestinian leaders are involed with Hamas, KLA, PLO etc.

Ill bet hands down a lot of the terrorism will stop once that happens.

Why? Based on what evidence? Clearly history is not on your side! Terrorist acts in israel go way back before these palestinians began espousing this palestinian state mantra.

You speak as though these people are some how justified in committing acts of terrorism. These arabs have no valid reason to attack school buses of children and market centers of innocent people and temples. What they are doing is completely immoral, unjustified, and cowardly. They have no reason to expect Israel will treat them with kid gloves.

But no one can promise nothing else will happen with the level of antagonism that has been built up.

Again it sounds as if you are espousing sympathy for their actions. Their actions are unjustifiable Pax. They target innocent people. Doesn't that tell you anything about their motives and value system?

Pax do you honestly believe these children, infermed, and innocent temple goers deserve to die for the sake of palestinian bigotry?

It will take time... But if itss till toos erious a prob then palestinans can expect a clampdown at the border... and raids. But that still doesnt mean Israel cant vacate the west bank and gaza. Israel would gain the moral high ground if it did.

They already have the moral high ground.

When was the last time you heard of a jew blowing up a buss of school children?

I didnt reference non democratic reasons to occupy the land. Lets have a democratic process decide what people wish to do in a given area. The palestinians want to run their own affairs.

Hold on. How will a democratic decision determine anything? The Arabs have no valid claims to those lands. The Jews never prevented them from having their own state their own arab people did when they attacked the palestinian mandate and divided it up in 48. All Israel has done is return the palestinian mandate to its original size. Remember how the arabs lost the land they took in war? they attacked Israel and Israel took the land back from them. Israel didn't attack them first. What was the reason for the attack pax? They wanted to drive israel into the sea. So much for you notion of these arabs as peace loving individuals as the purpose of that war was the annihilation of the jewish population - a true attempted ethnic cleansing. The jews have never done anything like that to the arabs.

The brit general observation is absurd because its annecdotal. It was plain that palestine had small populations of many groups. To say there were 4x times more jews than arabs in the bigger cities (small towns by our standards then) is simply moot argumentation.

This is a silly argument. He mentions cities and country sides and spends so little time on the arab as they were so hard to find. As i mentioned before even ottoman concensus suggest this.

Where do you suppose all those arabs were Pax? Roaming the country sides hidding from the view of this general? Were they so intimidated that even a concensus couldn't bring them out?

Im not saying some blame for the palestinians is due to their participation in wars against Israel but should they pay more than egyptians or jordanians? But a big part of solving probs is not playing the blame game. Majority of Palestinians dont expect or want to 'push israel into the sea' anymore. They simply want a democracy and self-determination...

How are they paying more? They are in the situation they are now partly because of the jordanians, epytians and syrians lack of interest in helping them. Not surprising since most of them were involved in pillaging the palestinian mandate in 48 and helping drive many of these Palestinian arabs from their lands.

 

[pax]

OK you're back to generalising and demonizing again... wasting my time I should keep my promise about stopping here as its going nowhere other than a blame the palestinians for all their suffering BS...

Your first phrase is already bunk. Far more palestinians have died than jews in the intifada... I dont see much in the way of being careful to distinguish normal palestinians from the small radical groups. These groups are growing tho. Completely predictable after 30-40 years of living in a refugee camp with insane unemployment even native american indians havent seen.

But not much indicates the terror is supported by the majority. That might change if the occupation lasts for much longer tho. Its alested far too long already. I dont think you grasp the kind of poverty and suffering living in a refugee camp for so long can produce. We are so spoiled in NA we would do same and worse if we had to endure a fraction of what some of these people have endured. A HUGE proportion of the Israeli population on the left and in the peace movement (which isnt only leftists) understands this.

Im not justifying acts of terror against civilians but its obviously a desperate act. The palestinians are destroying their moral standing in the process. They are desperate to break free of the decades long situation. They cant move out of the camps to go elsewhere. They dont trust the Israelis. They ONLY have statehood as an option. Their religious attachment to Jerusalem is obvious.

What you quoted as me offering sympathy for terror is BS. There isnt an once of sympathy for acts of terror against civilians in my statements. There is sympathy and empathy for suffering tho. Its called real politik. Im simply observing cause and effect. You completely ingore the suffering endured and place al the cause as racism. This is a comtinuing failure of western diplomacy to account for sufferign as casuses for things like terrorism. But its so clearly linked as to make it a childs play to observe it happen time and time again. Diplomacy 101. Fuck over your neighbor and he'll fuck you over... back and forth. Simple as that. Looking for the chicken or the egg in hundreds of years of history is insane...

You obviously dont watch the same news as I do. Palestinian kids gets shot dead regularly and more have died than jewish kids...

Jews again contradict what you say. There was ethnic cleansing of many of the arabs in palestine and before the arabs attacked. Palestinian jews and arabs had lived in peace for centuries, heck millenia, until the exodus from europe. Again what egypt and jordan and syria did shouldnt have to reflect on palestinians. Do the jordanians owe them as well? Yes but peace with those nations with Israel didnt take into account any palestinian issues. The Israelis are not interested in seeing peace deals reopened by palestinians who want part of the east bank of the jordan. I expect them to ask tho once they have recieved statehood... but I doubt any large player will pay any attention... If some kind of peace is finally found they will want to set it down with an iron clad deal of no more demjands on any side..

You know ultimately your grossly unbalanced view of the situation which like I said isnt shared by most of the world offers no solution. Heck I find your position to the far right of Likud. More along the lines of some of the small far right israeli parties... So if you are intersted in solutions give us some. If your solutions is for all terrorism to stop before any peacemeal offering can be made to the palestinians in the occupied territories then its bogus and a catch 22... you know it cant be lived up to. I think all you really want is for Israel to retain the westbank and ethnically cleanse the Muslims there a 2nd time. Where to? God only knows...

Are you so deluded into thinking there were no arabs in Palestine even though their 3rd most holy site was there?? Is there really that much a diff tween an nomadic arab in Galileean pastures vs one with a fixed address in the cities has no right to continue living there?

Ive offered my solution. Israel must vacate the territories first. Its neither complete nor total. But its a huge step on the way to reducing both the terror that Israeli military cant seem to fully stop (unless it wants the Israeli economy to shed its entire palestinian workforce).

On the Palestinian side they must work to reduce the terrorism once they have gotten the means to do so... That means statehood with economic and policing means at their disposal.

The palestinians KNOW they wont have any real statehood until Israel feels safe. They KNOW israel isnt going anywhere. They are a lot more pragmatist than you give them credit.

How can you say history sint on my side? There si no history quoted in your rejecttion neither in palestine (as no history can be found of Israel making any real concessions to Palestinians) nor can I think of another example outside the situation in world history.

 

[Legion]

OK you're back to generalising and demonizing again... wasting my time I should keep my promise about stopping here as its going nowhere other than a blame the palestinians for all their suffering BS...

Oh please. I have been merely addressing your misconceived notions of the guilt of the israelis by addressing where most of the guilty really belongs.

Your first phrase is already bunk. Far more palestinians have died than jews in the intifada... I dont see much in the way of being careful to distinguish normal palestinians from the small radical groups. These groups are growing tho. Completely predictable after 30-40 years of living in a refugee camp with insane unemployment even native american indians havent seen.

Oh really? If this is true it is more than likely linked to the deaths of the Palestinians from their own suicide attacks, wars against the jews, etc. Please don't make it seems as though the jews are some how responsible for righting the mistakes of the palistinians.

Again i have to make the point to you no one but the palis and other arabs are forcing the palis to live in these camps. There are plenty of palistinian arabs living in israel as productive citizens. I mentioned this to you before. Israel is not preventing them from achieving citizenship.

Again had the arabs not attacked the palestinian mandate in 48 and israel in 67/73 most of these refugees wouldn't be refugees.

I am sorry but your flemsy reasoning in support of terrorist groups within refugee camps doesn't fly with me. There is no justification for the murder of the innocent.

These palis need to get their act together and put forth a collective effort to squelch terrorism amongst their ranks. If they truly want peace this is something they should have to do to demonstrate their dedication to peace. They are not doing this by supporting such leaders as Abdullah Kawasme (deceased) and Arafat. Palestinians sit my silently as their leaders manipulate them and their families for political gain often through terrorist violence. There is plenty of evidence for this in their societies.

But not much indicates the terror is supported by the majority. That might change if the occupation lasts for much longer tho. Its alested far too long already. I dont think you grasp the kind of poverty and suffering living in a refugee camp for so long can produce. We are so spoiled in NA we would do same and worse if we had to endure a fraction of what some of these people have endured. A HUGE proportion of the Israeli population on the left and in the peace movement (which isnt only leftists) understands this.

Why is it that these palis remain silent about the terrorist groups within their camps? To me this is nothimg more than a silent condolence of such behavior.

Honestly i am touched by your ability to feel for your fellow man but you must realize the circumstances and the causes for them. If the palis are to be considered trust worthy they are going to have to make a great deal of changes within their personal politics and put aside their bigoted agendas.

Why is it that these palis are so incapable of moving on with their lives? who is forcing them to be in these camps?

Many of the Jews after the holocaust in europe, exiled from their homes, turned to Israel for hope of starting new lives. They have been greatly successful under the circumstances. Many other refugees starting out with nothing have made something of themselves in similiar lengths of time. What is it about these palis that prevents them from being able to move on? Israel from the begining was more than willing to live in peace with its arab neighbors. Unfortunately, the arabs couldn't allow this. Though the mandate of palestine allowed for an arab state one couldn't be created do to the back stabbing acts of Syria et al who felt the land was prime for the taking and felt no remorse over killing their own arab brothers and jews within these lands. Ultimately driving many from their homes.

Had the arabs not attacked Israel in 67/73 they wouldn't have lost the lands they acquired through war nor have created the amount of refugees that currently exist. Who compelled the arabs to attack Israel? What did Israel do to make them want to drive the jews into the sea? Was this not the battle cry of the arabs of the time? What really has changed?

Do you know why they call '73 the Yom Kippur war? Because the arabs felt the need to attack the jews on their high holy day. The reason for this is the arabs knew the Jews would be celebrating and wouldn't be prepared for an attack. This was a malicious and cowardly action.

In the end it cost the arabs more than they bargined for and some how this is the fault of the jews today. The jews did nothing to provoke such an attack and the arabs should receive 100% of the blame for the rammifications.

With this being said i feel Israel's political stance is justified.

These palis live in illegal settlements and aren't protected under Israeli housing laws. The jews aren't forcing them to live their. They live there because they wish not to be apart of israel.

I have spoken to you before about your use of anonimous authorities.

Im not justifying acts of terror against civilians but its obviously a desperate act. The palestinians are destroying their moral standing in the process. They are desperate to break free of the decades long situation. They cant move out of the camps to go elsewhere. They dont trust the Israelis. They ONLY have statehood as an option. Their religious attachment to Jerusalem is obvious.

A desperate act? Murdering innocent children and old men and women is an act of desperation from a peace loving group?

Please address terrorism for what it really is: A bold, cowardly, act of violence aimed at destroying the lives of innocent people for the sake of terror such that a populace can be manipulated.

Many people throughout history have found nonviolent ways of protesting their current circumstances. The indians for example under Ghandi took apon a belief of civil disobedience through nonviolent protest of British powers. This is an example of peaceful protesting in action which serves to demonstrate a schism in value systems between those in india and those in the ME.

Let us for a minute examine the mindset of these pali terrorists. They are funded and supported by much larger terrorist networks aimed at the distruction of Israel. They are spoon fed hateful propaganda day in and day out by their leaders in order to fashion them into murders. These people set aside any sense of the value of humanity when they plan their attacks against innocent children, women, men, the old and infermed. The very basis of their support of terrorism has its roots in their culture, ignorance, and religion.

These acts are out of desperation? No, these acts are out of absolute unadultered hatred.

What you quoted as me offering sympathy for terror is BS. There isnt an once of sympathy for acts of terror against civilians in my statements. There is sympathy and empathy for suffering tho.

Is that so? You have on multiple occassions even within this very post tried to link their murderous actions with some how reasonable and understandable positions. I don't know where you come from but around here we call that sympathy for the cause.

Its called real politik. Im simply observing cause and effect.

Are you? Then realize the effect of terrorism is the lack of an arab palestinian state.

You completely ingore the suffering endured and place al the cause as racism. This is a comtinuing failure of western diplomacy to account for sufferign as casuses for things like terrorism.

No, it is the realization that terrorism is an act of violence against innocents and a complete lack of tolerance for the brutish mindset which supports it.

But its so clearly linked as to make it a childs play to observe it happen time and time again. Diplomacy 101. Fuck over your neighbor and he'll fuck you over... back and forth. Simple as that. Looking for the chicken or the egg in hundreds of years of history is insane...

Except demonstratably the Arabs lost what they had by their own doings. If they never attacked the palestinian mandate or Israel they wouldn't be in the position they are now. Why should they continue to punish Israel for their continuing violent behavior over the decades? Should Israel have backed down to them and allowed them to walk all over them?

What caused these attacks? Nothing more than Arab bigotry. Who are you to say such random attacks won't ever happen again? Israel has to defend itselfs against such possibilities.

You obviously dont watch the same news as I do. Palestinian kids gets shot dead regularly and more have died than jewish kids..

Is this some fault of Israel? Are you suggesting they some how didn't provoke being shot? I don't believe more Palestinian kids have died then those in israel at all. how many of those who have died have been directly linked to terrorism or violence which caused their death?

Jews again contradict what you say.

Oh please, Who are you to inform me about what all jews believe? Don't even try to tell me the vast majority of jews agree with your position ergo you are correct. That is an ad popullum fallacy that completely avoids the topics which i have discussed. If you want to debate then do so by discussing the information i have present not by trying to convince me that you are some how correct because an anonimous mass agrees with your position.

I don't recall sympathy having to be justified by reason or fact. Having sympathy isn't an admittion of guilt.

There was ethnic cleansing of many of the arabs in palestine and before the arabs attacked. Palestinian jews and arabs had lived in peace for centuries, heck millenia, until the exodus from europe.

You are repeating this again when i refuted already? There are plenty of examples of ethnic cleansing of jews by the muslims following their arrival in the ara of palestine in 636 AD (medina is another good example). What exactly are you refering to? Can you point out to me specifics? During the time of the European exodus the Arabs were attacking the jews and murdering many of the settlers in absurd numbers. If you believe these arabs were peaceful you have been terribly mislead. The Hashomer (the watch) was created to protect these jewish migrants from the arab raiders. They weren't marching around mass slaughtering Arabs as you seem to be claiming. They attacked specific targets: arab raiders. The Haganah which came from the Hashomer latter became apart of their official army.

What exactly are you claiming? That these "poor" jewish migrants were slaughtering arabs? Do you have any historical links to this?

Again what egypt and jordan and syria did shouldnt have to reflect on palestinians.

Why not? They helped put the palis in the position they are in today!

Do the jordanians owe them as well?

Hell yes they do.

Yes but peace with those nations with Israel didnt take into account any palestinian issues. The Israelis are not interested in seeing peace deals reopened by palestinians who want part of the east bank of the jordan.

I don't know if that is true nor would i penelaze them for their reluctants.

I expect them to ask tho once they have recieved statehood... but I doubt any large player will pay any attention... If some kind of peace is finally found they will want to set it down with an iron clad deal of no more demjands on any side..

I highly doubt this will happen do to the obvious unwillingness of palistinians to cooperate. They have continuously botched peace talks going back father than the oslow accords. They could have had their own state long ago.

You know ultimately your grossly unbalanced view of the situation which like I said isnt shared by most of the world offers no solution. Heck I find your position to the far right of Likud.

Obviously i have demonstrated a very keen knowledge of what is happening over in the ME and i don't need your approval to realize i know what i am talking about.

More along the lines of some of the small far right israeli parties... So if you are intersted in solutions give us some. If your solutions is for all terrorism to stop before any peacemeal offering can be made to the palestinians in the occupied territories then its bogus and a catch 22... you know it cant be lived up to. I think all you really want is for Israel to retain the westbank and ethnically cleanse the Muslims there a 2nd time. Where to? God only knows...

You have yet to even address specifics pax. I don't consider you credible. Your obvious inability to do so is telling as is your constant need to associate me with some kind of extremist position. Is this the only way you know how to minimize my standing?

Could you please explain to me why Israel should trust these palis after all the arabs have put them throught. The Israelis have earned the right to be skittish.

Are you so deluded into thinking there were no arabs in Palestine even though their 3rd most holy site was there??

Are you so deluded you have to take my words out of context completely? Did i say there were no arabs there? No i said the concensus suggested a very small number. This invalidates many of the arab claims to the land. The Israel have never wanted to restrict these Arabs without reason.

Is there really that much a diff tween an nomadic arab in Galileean pastures vs one with a fixed address in the cities has no right to continue living there?

A great deal of difference when you consider ownership of land. Does passing through palistine some how make them joint owners of the land?

Ive offered my solution. Israel must vacate the territories first. Its neither complete nor total. But its a huge step on the way to reducing both the terror that Israeli military cant seem to fully stop (unless it wants the Israeli economy to shed its entire palestinian workforce).

You haven't provided any substantive evidence for such claims. As i have suggested to you violence within the Arab communities against Israel has gone on before then Israelis repossessed these lands.

Pax are you completely unaware as to how Jordan, Syria and Egypt acquired these lands? They took them during war. They were conquests. If they have legitimate claims to these lands then so does Israel by taking them in their conquest.

On the Palestinian side they must work to reduce the terrorism once they have gotten the means to do so... That means statehood with economic and policing means at their disposal.

No. The evidence of reduction of terrorism must come first if they are to validate their claims. Right now they are not in the position to claim any peaceful motives. Work first rewards latter.

The palestinians KNOW they wont have any real statehood until Israel feels safe. They KNOW israel isnt going anywhere. They are a lot more pragmatist than you give them credit.

Really? Then why are they so reluctant to aid in the removal of terrorist leaders and supportors? Why is it so hard to motivate them to do the right thing? If they truly grasped the concept and value of peace then they should realize the intimidating factor an ocean of arabs has on the island of israel. Israel shouldn't be the ones to be forced to make all these sacrifices. If these arabs cared why are they so uninterested in helping the palis? WHy? because they make much better political puppets where they are now.

How can you say history sint on my side? There si no history quoted in your rejecttion neither in palestine (as no history can be found of Israel making any real concessions to Palestinians) nor can I think of another example outside the situation in world history.

Did i not mention to you the basis of the formation of the Hashomer and Haganah? Did i not mention the arab raiders or how Egypt, Syria and Jordan acquired lands from the palistinian mandate? Did i not mention to you the affects of the 67/73 wars? I would have to say there is much history in and reason in objecting to the notion of palis and their suposed peaceful motives.

 

[Willmeister]

Let me put it to you this way.

The probability of an Israeli dying from an automobile accident is about twice times as likely as an Israeli dying in a terrorist attack (I consider only people who live in Israel as Israeli; settlers don't count in that catergory). Anyway, what gets the publicity? Bombs or traffic accidents? Whatever can be spun for political gain by whatever elite can mould it. It's like that everywhere, even in the North America. Four times as many people are killed in PREVENTABLE workplace accidents in the USA than gunplay (the proportion in Canada is certainly much higher), but what gets the media attention in both countries? This is just an observation and ties in slightly with comments I make below.

The whole Israeli-Palestinian issue will NOT be resolved in a two-state solution. The elites on either side will never, ever allow it. Their whole raison d'etre will cease to exist and then will be faced with the daunting task of finding real jobs or dealing with issues that affect everyone. The only thing that will satisify people like Sharon and Yessin is the complete removal of the other and as long as that never is allowed to happen, Sharon, Yessin, Peres, Arafat, et al, can go on their merry way. A demented Mutt and Jeff routine that continually scuttles progress. The only thing, IMHO, that can resolve this issue is a state in the mould of Canadian-like federalism. The French-English split had been going on much longer, and was way more violent than the relatively short-lived split between Jews and Palstinians in the region. In Canada's case, they came together against a common external threat: the USA which had attempted to invade Canada four times, all unsuccessful I may add. Israelis and Palestinians have to realize they suffer from the same problems: poverty and economic destitution. You remove the billions Israel receives from both the USA and Germany and Israel is even more impovrished than many nations at the bottom like Palestine.

Israelis have to realize that a nation state, and a nation state built on exclusionary ethno-religous principles at that, has no mystical powers that will protect them from outsiders, nor does it ever really cocern itself with more prevalent and important day-to-day issues. They seem to falsely believe that by dealing with nation issues, social progress inevitably follow, or that national issues come first at the exclusion of all else. It's obvious, this is either the wrong way, or the most inefficient way of doing so. Unfortunately, nationalism has become the easiest salvational ideology/cure-all ever created in the modern world.

You can say the same thing about the Palestinians now to. They've adopted a 'national' mindset over that which is more important: economic progress.

The reason why the West has been remarkably successful at eliminating ethic violence inside itself (though by using widespread and major expansionistic violence abroad) has been the reduction of poverty inside it. At the end of the day, people don't care about race as they're too busy carring about their own material self-interest. Racism is a product of pure reason, untempered by empathy or social decorum. Racism is not a mindless outburst. It is a cold manner by which sociopaths get others to do their bidding on their own road to self-enrichment. Anti-semitism was continually on the wane in Germany before the rise of Hitler, especially as Germany was making all the leaps in techonology, social services and economics. Like a southern segregationist, Hitler was deeply disturbed by the acceptance (and assimilation) of Jews into German society. He absolutely loathed the idea of 'Jewish Germans' making positive gains for their fellow Germans, which is why a lot of Germans fled to America, even though in many ways, the treatment of Jews in America, the Soviet Union and British territories was far worse than what was happening in Germany (up to Krystalnacht anyways).

And just to rebutt the insinuation that racism is a 'white' issue, I point them to the treatment of Goyim in Jewish religous texts ('a Jew killing a non-Jew is not murder because a non-Jew is not a person', which is making a resurgence after spending 1700 years in the gutter), or certain Asian traditions (Gualo or gaijin), or the genocides in the Congo or Rwanda. Again, racism is a nice tool for sociopaths to eliminate any competition.

Back to the Middle East, I'm more concerned with this latest roadmap and it's central obsession over state issues and not poverty itself. Without economic prosperity, social cohesion is never possible. I point to the Balkans for a good example of that.

I've always said that Ben-Gurion and his friends imported the worst aspects of Europe into the region and attempted to impose it on an unwilling populace with obviously disasterous results for everyone all around (except the elites like them, of course). They can hardly be blamed for it because they most likely realized 'so this is how the game is played.' Palestinians have adopted the mindset and has made it more complicated.


--
Bah. I was going to go back and make this more fluid but I just don't have time...

 

[pax]

Israelis refuse the right of return and Sharon and Likud will never allow them to attain citizenship. This is a bogus affirmation legion and you know it... What kind of citizen would only be alloweed to live in those areas of the west bank witout aquifers? You havent anwered that one.

You keep refusing to deal with the fact the Israeli peace movement and a multitiude of israeli intellectuals refute your position. They have the courage to acknowledge the Israeli share of mistakes of the past. You hold onto extremist right wing views that sheds all the blame onto the other side.

Again what is your solution? There isnt any. You know damn well Israel will never allow those millions of palestinians in refugee camps come over and overthrow the balance in the electorate. The palestinians know it. The Israeli peace movement knows it. I strongly suspect you know it and you know even after years of no more terrorism it wouldnt happen. Your simply trying to justify the occupation by making sure conditions for freedom for the palestinains in the wets bank ansd gazaa are impossible to attain.

If you cant understand my observations theres no point. The simple reality that great suffering leads to such things as terrorism and war is a plain observable historical fact. Theres no enlightening you if you cant realize that. Great suffering by jews led to terrorism on their part in the past.

I have no vested interest on either side of the conflict. I see crimes by both sides and I dont try to nit pick the hundreds of thousands of killings and murders to see whose done worse as that isnt the path to peace. Only more vengeance. I ask that Israel take the first step in letting the west bank and gazaa go. Because it is in a position of ovewhelming power. In fact its the ONLY step I expect Israel to take.

If you want to keep playing dirty in the discussion and paint me as a terrorist go ahead. Im really done this time. Debating what is going on now is valuable. But theres no debating in a blame game which is all you're doing. Are SOME Palestinians guilty of terrorism? Of course. But to paint them all in the same brush stroke is absurd.

If Israel really cared about the terrorism issue it would have locked the borders down for palestinians for years at a time entering Israel long ago. I always wondered why they didnt...

Maybe you'd want to tell me where you come from on this but anymore slurs against me in a desperate attampt to gain some kind of 'upper hand' in the discussion wont be acknowlegded. You sound like the kind of guy who was a victim of terrorism. Ive rarely read views this far to the right on the issue even here at beyond...

 

[Legion]

Israelis refuse the right of return and Sharon and Likud will never allow them to attain citizenship. This is a bogus affirmation legion and you know it...

I think you know this is bs pax. There already are palestinian civilians in Israel.

What kind of citizen would only be alloweed to live in those areas of the west bank witout aquifers? You havent anwered that one.

Are you again asserting the jews are forcing them to live there in those illegal settlements? How many times have i refuted this pax?

You keep refusing to deal with the fact the Israeli peace movement and a multitiude of israeli intellectuals refute your position.

How did those anonimous historians refute my position pax? What is my position pax? What allegations have i made they have refuted and how?

They have the courage to acknowledge the Israeli share of mistakes of the past. You hold onto extremist right wing views that sheds all the blame onto the other side.

Didn't i mention your need to associate me with extremist groups in the past Pax? This is irratlonal behavior.

Again what is your solution? There isnt any.

Pax i already have discussed the obligation of the palestinians to assure the Israelis of their peaceful intentions first by clamping down on terrorism. Apparently you ignored that.

You know damn well Israel will never allow those millions of palestinians in refugee camps come over and overthrow the balance in the electorate.

And you know damn well they are in the position they are because numerous factors out of israels control. Israel shouldn't have to accept all of them as citizens. Clearly not many of them want to be citizen of Israel. The difference here is Israel is allowing for Pali citizenship where as other surrounding arab states aren't though they are greatly responsible for the palis' plight.

Again why do the jews owe these palis anything? I have demonstrated to you historically why the palis and other arab nations need to accept the majority of the blame for the current state of the ME. Likewise they need to accept responsibility.

The palestinians know it. The Israeli peace movement knows it. You know it and you know even after years of no more terrorism it wouldnt happen.

I have also refuted this rhetoric. The arabs have undermined any appearance of credibility in the area. They were attacking the jewish population long before the mantra of a pali state arose. Why all of a sudden would they stop? You haven't provided any valid reason as to why israel should believe them.

Your simply trying to justify the occupation by making sure conditions for freedom for the palestinains in the wets bank ansd gazaa are impossible to attain.

Justify the occupation? Pax these jews are "occupying" land the arabs took in war time situations. If they were justified in taking these lands by war then the jews were equally justified in taking the lands back by military force.

By what means do the Arabs justify their occupation of these lands?

If you cant understand my observations. The simple reality that great suffering leads to such things as terrorism and war is a plain observable historical fact. Theres no enlightening you if you cant realize that. Great suffering by jews led to terrorism on their part in the past.

Oh please no it doesn't. Nothing but hatred leads to such actions and there was enough of that around long before these so called palis wanted their own state. This is nothing more than just more of the same from these people as demonstrated throughout the 20th century.

I have no vested interest on either side of the confilct.

By the nature of your emmotional argumentation i disagree with you.

I see crimes by both sides and I dont try to nit pick the hundreds of thousands of killings and murders to see whose done worse as that isnt the path to peace. Only more vengeance. I ask that Israel take the first step in letting the west bank and gazaa go. In fact its the ONLY step I expect Israel to take.

Pax you are turning a blind eye to the horrors perpetrated against the jews by the these arab palis and other surrouding arab nations. How on earth can you equate both sides as moral equivalents? How many times have the jews sought to start wars against heir arab neighbors? what were their reasons? Compare this to the cowardly actions perpetrated in 67/73. Can you honestly say these two side are moral equals?

How on earth can you expect israel to sacrifice so much? Why should they invest so much trust in these palis when they are demonstratably untrust worthy. Considering Israel's position i find your demands without any approval of peace on the side of the pali's far to muc to stomach

If you want to keep playing dirty in the discussion and paint me as a terrorist go ahead.

The same goes for you painting me an extremist.

Im really done this time. Debating what is going on now is valuable. But theres no debating in a blame game which is all you're doing. Are SOME Palestinians guilty of terrorism? Of course. But to paint them all in the same brush stroke is absurd.

Without any grounds to trust them as a political entity Israel has no choice but to be suspiscious. Their silent support of terrorism, their active support of terrorist, their clearly corrupt leadership etc serve to demonstrate just who they are and what they stand for.

Do you honestly think they can't help to reduce terrorism amongst their ranks? How much would it take to get the public involved with the IDF et al and work on uncovering terrorist networks within these illegal pali camps? Such would be a great step in the right direction.

If Israel really cared about the terrorism issue it would have locked the borders down for palestinians for years at a time entering Israel long ago. I always wondered why they didnt...

Why? Because you perceive they want to keep them in illegal shanty towns so they could attack their populace? That sounds like a pretty sound motive don't you think?

 

[pax]

Yes they are forced to live in refugee camps. I cant even begin to list the number of news articles and editorials that have said this... Your assertion that the palestinians can return and become citizens of Israel is absolutely false... Had Israel ethnically cleansed all the arabs form Palestine it would have drawn too much condemnation. Not all Israelis engaged in it everywhere. Haifa saw much less of that social ill than other areas. Talked to an israeli in haifa back in 88 when I was in Israel for about a month... Told me how some areas saw confilct some didnt. Areas where arabs were well tolerated they accepted to become citizens. Other areas, especially in the countryside and jerusalem where european jews wanted the land saw conflict. Go read on this little bit of history. It wasnt a clear cut thing... There were agressive people and racists on both sides who, at the social level mostly, began the violence we have today...

Anonymous?

You dont know the peace movement in Israel and the intellectuals that are a part of it? I need to google for you? Do you read outside your tight little right wing circle?

I cant invest in a discussion with you and draw out ressources and links as you're not worth it. You havent read enough on the subject from easily obtainable sources. Why invest 30 min in a post to refute the weird assertions like arabs are all to blame for their pight when Ive told you to go read the Israeli peace movement and the large number of historians and others who've contributed study there? We cant get off the ground before you do. You dont indicate the slightest interest in wanting to either.

You generalize time and time again. I cant chat with people like that. You legitimize all of Israeli actions in the past and deligitmize all arab palestinian ones. Ive talked to people in Likud who are more reasonable than that...


My interest in this discussion is in finding some solutions I havent already contemplated... I enjoy politics and like discussions where some kind of middle ground can be found. You're simply, so far, only trying to legitimize continuing the occupation. Except for that bizarre assertion that Israel's elite would ever allow palestinians to become citizens. You need to read on that in particular. This hasnt been an option for at least 30-40 years.

 

[pax]

Couple good reads here Legion...

http://ontology.buffalo.edu/smith//courses01/rrtw/Kapitan.htm

http://home.san.rr.com/gnasser/HistoryOfThePalestinianConflict.htm

http://www.merip.org/palestine-israel_primer/intro-pal-isr-primer.html

"...According to Ottoman records, in 1878 there were 462,465 subject inhabitants of the Jerusalem, Nablus and Acre districts: 403,795 Muslims (including Druze), 43,659 Christians and 15,011 Jews."

This I got in 3 min of googling... Take note of the authors if you prefer only jewish ones...


Willmeister: Its not a guarantee of economic prosperity to obtain nationhood. But its worth a try. If it does result in a better standard of living for palestinian refugees it cant be but an improvement over what exists now. And Id bet over time it'll lower the support for terror groups. Maybe a first step in the direction of some form of federalism as you say...

 

[Legion]

Yes they are forced to live in refugee camps. I cant even begin to list the number of news articles and editorials that have said this... Your assertion that the palestinians can return and become citizens of Israel is absolutely false...

Many have and could. The entirety of them couldn't but then Israel doesn't owe the citizenship. They would have had their own state if Sryia et al and themselves wouldn't have take that ability away from them.

Had Israel ethnically cleansed all the arabs form Palestine it would have drawn too much condemnation.

You haven't even provided the slightest evidence any ethnic cleansing ever happened.

Not all Israelis engaged in it everywhere.

Where did they engage in it? I have asked time and time again now for historical evidence and you haven't bother to make citations even once. All you are doing is throwing around this and other empty allegations.

Haifa saw much less of that social ill than other areas. Talked to an israeli in haifa back in 88 when I was in Israel for about a month... Told me how some areas saw confilct some didnt.

Pax it is clear to me you already have the notion jews were murdering arabs. It seems you are trying to find whatever you to supprt these claims evidence be damned.

I have already addressed the bogus claims of ethinic cleansing of the palis

Areas where arabs were well tolerated they accepted to become citizens. Other areas, especially in the countryside and jerusalem where european jews wanted the land saw conflict. Go read on this little bit of history.

Oh i have that is why i know you are full of it. I told you at this time the arab raider were harassing jewish migrants so the hashomer was created to protect the jews from the arab raiders. The ydon't go around ethnic cleansing arab.

If the jews where ethnic cleansing then what the were the arab raiders doing by specifically attacking and killing jewish migrants? In your eyes this isnt ethnic cleansing?

It wasnt a clear cut thing... There were agressive people and racists on both sides who, at the social level mostly, began the violence we have today...

This is a bogus allegation and you know it. From the get go arab racism and violence far out weighed that of Jews. Even other fellow hadn't a problem with mudering their own people to get a piece fo the palistinian mandate. Their cultural on set of violence is prepetrated in their raids, murder of the jews, murder of each other, and ultimately the prevention of the creation of an arab state in '48.

Did the jews seek to start a war with the arabs? No. The arabs attacked completely unprovoked with the soul desire to confiscate lands for meterial gain. The plight of their fellow arabs never once crossed their minds.

What you call acts of ethnic cleansing pale in conparison to attempted acts of Genocide on behalf of the arab population. What made the arabs want to attack jews inorder to wipe them out in 67/73? What on earth could have promotted the arabs into wanting to wipe out the jews in Israel entirely? No possible reason could have been provoded to explain their porposition. No reason was ever their then their deep seeded heartred of the jews.

[qoute]Anonymous?

You never mention a historian nor how my statements have been refuted by one.

You dont know the peace movement in Israel and the intellectuals that are a part of it? I need to google for you? Do you read outside your tight little right wing circle?

You make a claim and you shouldn't have to back it up? I am confused. I am left to provide you with the information you need to attempt to refute my statements? Why not then just argue with myself as i would more effectively be arguing your case.

You haven't bothered to explain why because these historians might have on opinion my statements are some how inherently wrong. Have you even considered the depth of ME history?

You seem so obsessed with acheive this notion of peace you have that you are willing to set aside over a century of modern violence against israel and its possible damage to Israel and the credibility of the arab people.

Everyone has moved on with their lifes since then except the palis.

I cant invest in a discussion with you and draw out ressources and links as you're not worth it.

You made this statement before and yet you are still arguing with me.

You havent read enough on the subject from easily obtainable sources.

No i just haven't read what you want me to read or think how you want me to think.

Why invest 30 min in a post to refute the weird assertions like arabs are all to blame for their pight when Ive told you to go read the Israeli peace movement and the large number of historians and others who've contributed study there?

You don't think i am aware of their claims? Does that not change the history of violence the arabs have been involved in or the impact that has had on the middle east. You haven't even address that vast majority of my challenges to your statements. you only have reassured me your possition is correct because anonymous mass x agree with you.

We cant get off the ground before you do. You dont indicate the slightest interest in wanting to either.

All you are really saying is as long as i don't agree with you position i am some how holding back progression. I find your allegations humorous and you can't answer to numbers of very basic questions.

You generalize time and time again. I cant chat with people like that. You legitimize all of Israeli actions in the past and deligitmize all arab palestinian ones. Ive talked to people in Likud who are more reasonable than that...

Generalizing? Like your allegations jews were some how were involved in ethnic cleansing of the arabs? Who was? When were they? I have asked you think time and time again. You have told me to search this information. Of course i will find that! If i went to the propanda houses of the internet or french documentaries and historical writtings i could easily find a book or books that claims the jews were the cause of 9/11! The lack of credibility these people's claims have only serves to bolster my position. There is so much inaccurate pali propaganda out there its sicking.

I have never legitimize all of what the Jews have done. I mentioned the wrong doing of the Irgun in past threads but apparently you over looked that in your response. All i have done is demonstrate to you there isn't a moral equility between these people. I am trying to provide you reasons for why Israel may now be reluctant in peace talks. There is certainly even history present to justify their feelings.

Lol only people who agree with your position in part are reasonable.

My interest in this discussion is in finding some solutions I havent already contemplated...

I don't think you are doing this.

I enjoy politics and like discussions where some kind of middle ground can be found. You're simply, so far, only trying to legitimize continuing the occupation.

You got this from me telling you i want the palestinians to be more involved in the peace process before turning the those over to them? This is "legitmizing" the occupation of those lands? Is this an admition on your behalf the palis won't be involved in disintigrating terrorism amongst their ranks?

I have stated to you the palis haven't claims to those lands. If Israel so chooses to give those lands over they should consider it a gift and not act as though they deserve. They need to stop blaming the jews for the majority of their problems and take responsibility for their actions and realize they have contributed to the majority of probrlems - which they have been very societally and politcally lax in doing so. Do i believe accross the board they will do this? Did i say this should be a matter in the continuing of the peace processes? No. I don't believe they could do accross the board. What i do believe is they could provide a good faith effort to work along side the IDF and perhaps UN/US forces to turn over terrorist suspects within their communites. This could easily work.

Except for that bizarre assertion that Israel's elite would ever allow palestinians to become citizens.

They do allow palestinians to become citizens but not all at once. That would be absurd to ask of them not to metnion they don't owe them the favor. They are living in illegal settlements in violation of israeli law. For all intents and purposes they are illegal immigrants. Its humorous you put the onus on Israel to take in these people when a great portion of them come from Syrian et al lands (during the arab occupation) and yet don't ask it of these neighboring arab states to take in numbers of the palis whom were apart of their occupation of the areas around the palistinian mandate.

 

[Sabastian]

Hi Bill,

The probability of an Israeli dying from an automobile accident is about twice times as likely as an Israeli dying in a terrorist attack (I consider only people who live in Israel as Israeli; settlers don't count in that catergory). Anyway, what gets the publicity? Bombs or traffic accidents?

There is an immense divergence between an accident and a bomb that was blown up deliberately in an attempt to kill as many people as possible. Sorry I thought I ought to point this out Will.

Whatever can be spun for political gain by whatever elite can mould it. It's like that everywhere, even in the North America. Four times as many people are killed in PREVENTABLE workplace accidents in the USA than gunplay (the proportion in Canada is certainly much higher), but what gets the media attention in both countries? This is just an observation and ties in slightly with comments I make below.

heh, again accidents are not intentionally fashioned, a small bit of prevention on behalf of the employee will go a long way with regards to workplace accidents. Mistakes happen unintentionally and yes sometimes even gunplay is an accident. The media would have to create the "Accident Channel" just to begin to scratch the surface. Hey, maybe you are on to something there.

The whole Israeli-Palestinian issue will NOT be resolved in a two-state solution. The elites on either side will never, ever allow it. Their whole raison d'etre will cease to exist and then will be faced with the daunting task of finding real jobs or dealing with issues that affect everyone.

That is rather a closed minded statement? Ahh, here we go, the bases of your argument is seated in that the real problem is one of poverty and not the political strife that the people face. This is a flawed argument. Poverty does not necessitate suicide bombings there are all sorts of impoverished people that do not engage in such drastic acts. The real problem that the peace process is facing in Israel is that Hamas insists that the state of Israel has no right to existence, even the Palestinian government supported the notion.

The only thing that will satisify people like Sharon and Yessin is the complete removal of the other and as long as that never is allowed to happen, Sharon, Yessin, Peres, Arafat, et al, can go on their merry way. A demented Mutt and Jeff routine that continually scuttles progress. The only thing, IMHO, that can resolve this issue is a state in the mould of Canadian-like federalism. The French-English split had been going on much longer, and was way more violent than the relatively short-lived split between Jews and Palstinians in the region. In Canada's case, they came together against a common external threat: the USA which had attempted to invade Canada four times, all unsuccessful I may add.

Where is it that they have said this recently? I have heard statements from both that are encouraging as of late. The leadership on both sides pretty much is in agreement that the terrorist actions of Hamas are intolerable. Unfortunately the Israeli government responds to these attacks on its people with military action on the Hamas terrorists, in an effort to defend its civilians. The reaction of the Palestinians seems to be one of surprise or hate. Personally I don’t appreciate their rational with regards as they know full well the intensions of Hamas, it certainly does seem… asinine for them to be upset about retaliatory action unless of course they don’t expect Israel to defend itself from suicide bombers..

Israelis and Palestinians have to realize they suffer from the same problems: poverty and economic destitution. You remove the billions Israel receives from both the USA and Germany and Israel is even more impovrished than many nations at the bottom like Palestine.

You are saying that while the Israeli state is subsidized to the tune of billions and have real economic activity going on because of their government trying to make efforts for the creation of an environment that accommodates it and the Palestinian government which up until recently was hell-bent on doing nothing but focusing on the destruction of Israel and the Jews that somehow Jews and Palestinians are in the same boat? The Palestinians could only be so lucky. Regrettably the greatest drag on the Israeli economy is terrorism and the unstable relatively high probability of war with what seems to be the entire Arab nation. I see President Bush’s offer of free trade with that region as a potential boon for the entire regions economy. But Bush was wise to attach this with the condition of peace. The only way to resolve the matter will absolutely have to involve a two-state solution. There is no way you will ever get Canadian-like federalism to work, that is an impractical solution at present this isn’t the Canada’s of hundreds of years ago. Anyhow it wouldn’t only be the elites that would oppose that solution, likely that would be rejected wholesale by the entire population of both countries. Personally I think Canada would be considerably better off as the largest US state, hehe. I don’t really have any objections to the US system. I like their lower taxation / less government model.

Israelis have to realize that a nation state, and a nation state built on exclusionary ethno-religous principles at that, has no mystical powers that will protect them from outsiders, nor does it ever really cocern itself with more prevalent and important day-to-day issues. They seem to falsely believe that by dealing with nation issues, social progress inevitably follow, or that national issues come first at the exclusion of all else. It's obvious, this is either the wrong way, or the most inefficient way of doing so. Unfortunately, nationalism has become the easiest salvational ideology/cure-all ever created in the modern world.

You can say the same thing about the Palestinians now to. They've adopted a 'national' mindset over that which is more important: economic progress.

Are you suggesting that before they rectify their political differences with Israel the Palestinians ought to magically repair their economy or somehow fight poverty without any money to do so? Nothing like putting the cart in front of the horse. That job is undoable without the proper economic environment (free market) that a good and stable government offers, otherwise this idea of fixing their impoverishment will never come to be. The sooner the people of Palestine realize that the sooner they can get out of poverty. That does not come to be by pointing fingers at the Jews and calling them blood sucking vampires etc.

The reason why the West has been remarkably successful at eliminating ethic violence inside itself (though by using widespread and major expansionistic violence abroad) has been the reduction of poverty inside it. At the end of the day, people don't care about race as they're too busy carring about their own material self-interest.

While poverty can cause social strife it is not the primary reason why the west is civil. I believe that it is a matter of having the right opportunities so that they can be involved in the wealth creation process (free market), the good job my mother did, strong work ethics, education, materialism and so on. Poverty does not cause racial violence absolutely, that’s a feeble hypothesis.

Racism is a product of pure reason, untempered by empathy or social decorum. Racism is not a mindless outburst. It is a cold manner by which sociopaths get others to do their bidding on their own road to self-enrichment. Anti-semitism was continually on the wane in Germany before the rise of Hitler, especially as Germany was making all the leaps in techonology, social services and economics. Like a southern segregationist, Hitler was deeply disturbed by the acceptance (and assimilation) of Jews into German society. He absolutely loathed the idea of 'Jewish Germans' making positive gains for their fellow Germans, which is why a lot of Germans fled to America, even though in many ways, the treatment of Jews in America, the Soviet Union and British territories was far worse than what was happening in Germany (up to Krystalnacht anyways).

If I believe that blacks have a superior set of genes does that make me racist? Absolutely. (I am white BTW.) Ironically Jews and Germans were not of a different race at all, culturally they are different but both are Caucasian. The Jewish people face more hatred incited by the left today. Socialists of Germany used hate against Jews to stimulate their ascension to authority under Hitler and Russian Socialists used "class" hatred to ignite a Communist upheaval. Communist mass murders were triple that of their Nazi cousins in sheer numbers and worldwide capacity. Ironically the Jewish people still face loathing in the west coming from the left that preaches anti-Semitism.

And just to rebutt the insinuation that racism is a 'white' issue, I point them to the treatment of Goyim in Jewish religous texts ('a Jew killing a non-Jew is not murder because a non-Jew is not a person', which is making a resurgence after spending 1700 years in the gutter), or certain Asian traditions (Gualo or gaijin), or the genocides in the Congo or Rwanda. Again, racism is a nice tool for sociopaths to eliminate any competition.

What of the Jihad and anyone whom is not Islamic is fair game to kill? This isn’t racism but a sort of cultural disparity based abhorrence.

Back to the Middle East, I'm more concerned with this latest roadmap and it's central obsession over state issues and not poverty itself. Without economic prosperity, social cohesion is never possible. I point to the Balkans for a good example of that.

As I pointed out before you are putting the carriage in front of the horse. BTW the wealthy are just as subject to cultural resentment and distrust as the poor are. Further you can’t use the Balkans as some sort of example, any good historian will tell you history never repeats itself. In other words, the circumstances in the Baltic states are not equivalent to what we are dealing with in the Middle East.

I've always said that Ben-Gurion and his friends imported the worst aspects of Europe into the region and attempted to impose it on an unwilling populace with obviously disasterous results for everyone all around (except the elites like them, of course).

Oh? What aspects of European culture are you talking about?

 

[Legion]

I am going to begin to repost old links and new ones on the way plus i plan to possibly bring more individuals into this conversation.

http://strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/36-9650.asp
http://strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/36-9639.asp
http://strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/36-9711.asp
http://strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/36-9678.asp

Much of what i have already written responds tothe comments made in your links.

So far your links blame Zionism for the creation of refugees and not the fact that arab invasion helped to generate much of them to start with. I don't see this as sound reasoning but rather typical anti-jewish sentiment to call all jewish supporting actions the actions of radical zionism. This doesn't make for rational argumentation at all.

Many of these refugees were created in war time situations. They fled from their lands both understandably and sometimes illogically. The Israeli's often times confiscated these lands. Why is this so wrong? they were deserted. The arab didn't do anything different. Infact they have a long history of confiscating land around the area especially during the era of the ottoman empire. They even confiscated many of the lands of the arab population in the palestinian mandate when they invaded it.

These refugees even existed within the arab controled sectors of the palestinian mandate. The arabs could have cared less about the million or so refugees existing at the time within the occuppied lands. The arabs weren't about to let these Palis have their own state. that thought never even entered their minds in the period of 30 years in which they held them. A period inwhich these arabs could have helped their brother out by giving up control of the lands.

Its funny that the only reason why a possible pali state could exist now is because of the fact that Israel has repossed these lands. Had the arabs still controled them there wouldn't even be talks about a pali state.

I also continue to see comments suggesting Israel confiscated lands owned by the palistians. Such statements come as a surprise to me considering the information involved.

When the refugees fled from the arab invaded lands and or from the areas around the Jewish state of israel they left their homes and possessions behind. The Israelis did confiscate those lands. Why shouldn't they have? They were deserted. The arabs did exactly the same thing to the jews who fled their lands and to the arab indiginous populations when they invaded. Why should israel take any particular blame in this matter?

Your article clearly fail to mention the violent behaviors of the indigenous population. Infact they entirely place blame on israel and not even a single account of actions perpetrated against Israel by the surrounding nations. The lack of the inclusion of the creation of such groups as the hashomer see to be clever omittions from these articles as they are obviously geared to sympathize only with the palis' claims.

It suggests a great number of discriminatory acts perperated by the israelis against the palis (clearly without discussing who these palis were and what they were doing in their current location) but fails to address those committed against the jews by the palis and arabs in pali and arab dominant lands. What of the myriad of jewish refugees fleeing from Syria, Jordan, etc? What about the lands and other property that was confiscated by the arab poplution? Why do they fail to mention this? Is it because the information is inconvenient?

I also see a good number of unsupported statements the authors expects for you to swallow such as those concerning land renting to jewish populations only and supposed automatic racism of zionists.

What is wrong with renting land to the jewish population? They were trying to incourage jewish developement in the area. Is there something inherently wrong with this? The arabs were doing the same thing.

Much of these supposed palestinian farmers didn't own the lands they worked on. They were farmers for absentee turkish land lords. The Jews moving into those lands often purchased these farms from these turkish land lords. Ultimately the vast number of farmers were forced off the land were so only because they didn't own them to begin with. The authors are weighting their figures by including such people as these and those whom sold their property to the jews.

 

[pax]

I just cant bother anymore legion. You have no balance to your views nor want to. 'The israelis have done no wrong and the palestinians are completely to blame for all their sufffering' is not tenable. If you wish to discuss solutions to todays problems Im welcome to hear them out and debate them. I dont care about whose to blame for what as that kind of discussion will go on forever ad nauseum. Its way past time for bygones to be bygones.

If the links I provided dont suffice go look for more that are of jewish origins. Doesnt it tell you anything that if jews criticize jews then something must be up? And I have to admire them for it as few palestinians do the same (tho im sure there are they arent very visible).

You know darn well the arabs in Israel werent all employees of absentee landlords... But I dont care about such old historical nit picking. There are millions of refugees living NOW in the west bank and gazaa who want and have been acknowledged by the UN as having legitimacy over the west bank and gaza. The first and only step from Israel must be to free them and let them form their own society there. If need be for Israels security, with closed borders.

On the other hand Im surprised about Powell's condemnation of attacks on hamas... Obviously a legitimate target... This should have no bearing on the peace process. Palestinians know they can expect more of the same if terror attacks continue. Palis can expect raids even in a pali state if attacks continue (tho a closed border should reduce whats left of the terror networks to very low levels...)

So I see this. Israel cant expect palis to stop terrorism. Its a social grass roots movement and is impossbile for any police state to stop completely.
Not saying their shouldnt be police action as I see Israeli raids into palestine as understandable if they continue terror both before and after the west bank is given back to palis.

And Palis cant expect no interventions and any respect for their borders if they cant stop terror from happening. But again I believe terror will wane if they can obtain independance and start forming a state with free markets (not a problem as arabs are historically and culturally traders).

The first step is to be Israels tho. But Israel uses any terror attacks to avoid this necessary step of removing the settlements and vacating the west bank and gazaa. That is a mistake and isnt working in any case. Short of running a soviet style police state with far more ressource expenditures on security than is now seen Israel wont be able to stop terrorism. I dont think thats a good idea and probably wont work in the long run either...

 

[Legion]

I just cant bother anymore legion. You have no balance to your views nor want to. 'The israelis have done no wrong and the palestinians are completely to blame for all their sufffering' is not tenable. If you wish to discuss solutions to todays problems Im welcome to hear them out and debate them. I dont care about whose to blame for what as that kind of discussion will go on forever ad nauseum. Its way past time for bygones to be bygones.

But you just continue post after though nearly three posts ago you said the same thing.

Again i said i believe the Palis/arabs should receive most of the blame. Never did i say israel shouldn't receive any blame.

All i have discussed are the abnoramlities in the demands of israel and the lack of trustworthyness in the pali/arab community.

If the links I provided dont suffice go look for more that are of jewish origins. Doesnt it tell you anything that if jews criticize jews then something must be up? And I have to admire them for it as few palestinians do the same (tho im sure there are they arent very visible).

Doesn't it tell you something when you have to assume you are right based on an individuals interpretation of history when so many others exist? I mentioned to you numerous reasons why their accounts are rather questionable and sometimes out and out fallacious. I have been mentioning facts - things that actually happened. Your links clearly omitted many of those facts which ought to raise questions in your mind.

Do you not think i can find an arab who is against the palis and their position? What of all the jews you feel simliarly. Are their opinions some how moot because you have found information that sides with your opinion?

http://www.nationalreview.com/may/may062403.asp

You know darn well the arabs in Israel werent all employees of absentee landlords...

You keep telling me "you know darn well", "you know darn well." Each time i provide you with historical reasons why i feel the way i do to validate my position.

I never stated all the arabs in Israel were absentee landlords. Its kind of hard to be an absentee land lord when you live in the country your farms are in.

What i said was a good portion of the arabs in '48 worked for absentee land lords.

But I dont care about such old historical nit picking. There are millions of refugees living NOW in the west bank and gazaa who want and have been acknowledged by the UN as having legitimacy over the west bank and gaza.

Pax these refugees were created in war time situations. Throughout history societies have acquired lands through war without much historical rejection other than mere rejections of morality. Now all of a sudden we determine that the body of land dwellers among other reasoning determines who exist within these acquired lands some how determines the ownership of the land. If so then the greeks really own much of the ME, the native americans really own much of the US, Gallic/Germanic tribes own much of the UK and not their romanized decendants.

If you ask me this kind of reasoning is fallacious. Why should Israel take responsibility for the Pali refugees? You've never explained why. Most of them come from other arab nations or lands that arabs acquired and were created in the 67/73 wars - a war where israel was forced to defend itself. Why can't these arabs take their own people back?

Clearly they aren't ever going to nor were the arabs really ever concerned with the interest of the palis. that is why i said the only reason a pali state is now possible is because Israel own these lands.
The first and only step from Israel must be to free them and let them form their own society there. If need be for Israels security, with closed borders.

On the other hand Im surprised about Powell's condemnation of attacks on hamas... Obviously a legitimate target... This should have no bearing on the peace process. Palestinians know they can expect more of the same if terror attacks continue. Palis can expect raids even in a pali state if attacks continue (tho a closed border should reduce whats left of the terror networks to very low levels...)

I don't think its really up to Powell to decide this. He isn't israel. He isn't sacfricing security in being apart of peace resolutions.

So I see this. Israel cant expect palis to stop terrorism. Its a social grass roots movement and is impossbile for any police state to stop completely.

No one said they could stop it completely. However the Palis can help to dramatically reduce it by turning over members to terrorist groups and terrorist suspects.

Not saying their shouldnt be police action as I see Israeli raids into palestine as understandable if they continue terror both before and after the west bank is given back to palis.

If the palis are given their own state couldn't the "intrusive" acts of a people force venturing into their lands be consider an act of war? Honestly i don't see the palis ever doing much to stop terrorism.

And Palis cant expect no interventions and any respect for their borders if they cant stop terror from happening.

Well this is inevitable considering you yourself have stated squelching terrorism is impossible.

Considering giving them their own country has nothing to do with an economy why would they be able to do anything they couldn't do now?

But again I believe terror will wane if they can obtain independance and start forming a state with free markets (not a problem as arabs are historically and culturally traders).

You believe this but you never gave me a reason as to why. You've stated that since by the logic they want their own homeland giving them such would some how pacify them. This is only a temporary garauntee. I have demonstrated that the palis and arabs have a long history of this behavior way before the pali state mantra arose. If it existed so strongly before why then why would it stop or shrink so drastically?

For the sake of being constructive i will provide you a logical reason for their behaviors.

I say more so then having a home state poverty paired with religious dogma and ignorance are what can be used to so easily manipulate palis. Providing them a state won't change these facts. As you can see the vast majority of the ME is an otherwise economic wasteland fueled mainly by the exploitation of populaces and oil. Having a country doesn't garauntee you much economic progress if any at all Clearly these other people have their own nations but are incapable of solving these problems. This is mainly do to the ineffectual populace being ruled by dictators. There is no reason to believe at all the palis themselves could some how rise above all of this. None. However, If the US (more so then the UN) were to get involved with these people and help them achieve it would be a great step in the right direction.

I chose the US over the UN do to the obvious incapacity of the UN and their wholey partisan agendas.

The first step is to be Israels tho.

I disagree. I think the palis need to make a good faith effort by helping US/IDF/UN forces to cut down on terrorism as i mentioned before.

But Israel uses any terror attacks to avoid this necessary step of removing the settlements and vacating the west bank and gazaa.

Again i disagree with your take on their reponsibilities.

That is a mistake and isnt working in any case. Short of running a soviet style police state with far more ressource expenditures on security than is now seen Israel wont be able to stop terrorism.

I thought you stated that this is impossible in any case.

I dont think thats a good idea and probably wont work in the long run either...

The same can easily be said about giving the Palis their own state.

 

[pax]

Ya made myself into a liar over not posting on this anymore quite a while ago. Couple of slurs really pumped me up tho... One last question legion is whats your vested interest in this? Are you a fundamentalist christian or some orthodox jew or member of a small right wing political party in Israel, or likud?

Just curious...