Xbox 360/PS3 graphics- an observation

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As an owner of both consoles, with a keen interest in gaming, I have made the following observation, and would like your opinions.

The 360 and PS3 are generally considered pretty equal in performance terms, with the 360 usually seen to have the better GPU/memory with the PS3 countering with the Cell.

Until now 360 games (both multiplatform and exclusives) have been generally considered to have superior graphics, or at least be technically superior (ie render in higher resolutions, with AA etc.). However with analysts predicting PS3 to take a sales lead in 2008/2009, this will probably change, as developers shift thier focus to the PS3 (ie. making the PS3 the lead platform, and porting to 360, instead of the opposite)

This shift, will also eventually see PS3 games take the lead in graphics.
To many the games that will herald this shift will be Killzone 2 and Resistance 2.

It is notable that both of these are first party (Guerilla Games) or second party (Insomniac acts first party though) developers.

In contrast the two games generally regarded as technical flagships on the 360 are Gears of War and Call of Duty 4 (which is not even an exclusive). Both these games are made by third party developers which have their engines running on both consoles (UT3 for PS3).

This is important as the 360 does not have any 360 exclusive, graphics driven AAA titles in development.

From this observation it could be inferred that the 360 will lose the graphics war with PS3, not necessarily because of the hardware, but because of the lack of developers pushing the hardware to its limits.

This is one of the flaws with Microsoft business model, which sources 360 exclusives from independent developers, rather than relying on a stable of first party developers like Sony does.

Compounding the problem is the fact that many of Microsoft's first and second party developers seem to be out of form technically.

Team Ninja's DOA4 and Ninja Gaiden 2 are not the graphical showcases their Xbox predecessors were (probably a result of using a modified Xbox engine instead of building a custom one for 360).
Bungie also has chosen to do this, which is why Epic's 360 titles are technically superior to Bungie's, when it was the opposite on Xbox.

Lionhead, Turn 10 and Rare cannot be looked to for support, as they are gameplay-focused devs (and Rare is a shadow of its former self).

The only other announced 360 exclusives that may tip the scales in Microsoft's favour are Alan Wake and Project Offset, but there is no certainty that they can deliver technical benchmarks for the 360.

On PS3 however, you will likely see the best graphics trophy rotate between Naughty Dog, Insomniac, Guerilla Games, Evolution Studios, Kojima Productions, Team ICO, Polyphony Digital, Sucker Punch and of course SCE Santa Monica.

This stellar first-party support, coupled with Sony's dominance of the previous generation, and Blu-ray will all aid the PS3 in overtaking the 360 as analysts predict.

While Microsoft cannot change the other variables, should they focus on excellent first party content, if they intend on beating Sony? Especially on graphics driven games, seeing how important graphics are to PS3/360 owners. Otherwise Sony's claims that the PS3 will deliver the best graphics may become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Has anyone else made a similar observation, or agrees with mine?

PS: Anyone know how Insomniac can release a AAA title in three consecutive years, on complex hardware, while other devs of similar size (eg Bungie) turn out a game every 2-3 years?
 
Isn't Rare a technical beast?

Used to be in N64, even Gamecube days, more focused on casual gaming now, Viva Pinata was interesting and Banjo Kazooie 3 looks fun, but technically they're not yet back to Perfect Dark/Goldeneye days.

Most of Rare's FPS team split and formed Free Radical Design (though considering Haze it was probably for the better)
 
i was only talking about them from a technical point of view not gameplay.

imo, i hope they stay with the kiddy stuff and interesting concepts like banjo 3, i don't want another disaster like PDZ.
 
PS: Anyone know how Insomniac can release a AAA title in three consecutive years, on complex hardware, while other devs of similar size (eg Bungie) turn out a game every 2-3 years?

I am guessing resources, backing from Sony and great people in the company.
Ie they mentioned they had about 150 Dev units in a podcast and they started on RFOM on PC and then "converted" it to PS3 when they got dev units.
And since they use their own engine, just evolve it for each title I guess the rampup is faster do to the experience with the engine. Also it just seems they got a really great bunch of people and most likely work on games in parallel. I doubt that they finished Ratchet and Clank and they went on holiday and then came back and started up with Resistance 2. Ie design and story was already there and engine team working on putting in new features that can be used for R2.
 
I am guessing resources, backing from Sony and great people in the company.
Ie they mentioned they had about 150 Dev units in a podcast and they started on RFOM on PC and then "converted" it to PS3 when they got dev units.
And since they use their own engine, just evolve it for each title I guess the rampup is faster do to the experience with the engine. Also it just seems they got a really great bunch of people and most likely work on games in parallel. I doubt that they finished Ratchet and Clank and they made some holidays and then started up with Resistance 2. Ie design and story was already there and engine team working on putting in new features that can be used for R2.

I would also say they are very good at planning and organization. Having your planning rock solid can only make your project move along much faster. Once you set that foundation you can start to implement other projects and stick to your target dates.

It does help if you never sleep :smile:
 
PS: Anyone know how Insomniac can release a AAA title in three consecutive years, on complex hardware, while other devs of similar size (eg Bungie) turn out a game every 2-3 years?

Staff and production? While I'm not a fan of Halo, I do recognize the production values involved in the franchise. I'm sure the planning stages for a game like Halo3, and the amount of hours that go into concept art, story etc are much longer than other AAA titles. Not to mention they had that weird play test facility run by that psychology PhD that they were using to tweak the game experience. They may spend equal or fewer hours working on the engine, but there is a huge amount of work outside of that.

Not that Insomniac doesn't make fantastic games, but Bungie is in a position where they can spend the extra time, money and go the extra mile to try to make sure their immensely popular title is nearly perfect.
 
Used to be in N64, even Gamecube days, more focused on casual gaming now, Viva Pinata was interesting and Banjo Kazooie 3 looks fun, but technically they're not yet back to Perfect Dark/Goldeneye days.

Most of Rare's FPS team split and formed Free Radical Design (though considering Haze it was probably for the better)
The visuals in Kameo still hold up well.
 
A few comments:

1) The UE3/3.5 might as well be considered a 360-exclusive engine, given how terribly it has been utilized on the PS3. It has always produced among the best visuals on the 360.

2) Rare for its part made one of the best-looking games of the generation in Viva Pinata. It's not just "interesting" as you put it. Rare is definitely leading rather than following in terms of graphics.

Personally, I think MS made good business decisions. They put ease of development above a few other priorities, whereas the evidence shows Cell being difficult to exploit. Now we are halfway through the generation, and MS's platform has compared well graphically for that entire time, and the crossover point (if there is one) is still out in the future. That strikes me as being the result of good decisions by MS made up-front in 2004/05.
 
This is important as the 360 does not have any 360 exclusive, graphics driven AAA titles in development.

Is this an assumption or do you really have access to Microsoft's software development portfolio?

In keeping with the spirit of the thread, the thing I notice is that MS exclusives in general, seem to have lacked a desire to achieve realistic looking visuals and trend toward a more stylized/colorful/cartoony art style. More so than I see an emphasis on gameplay over graphics. Many of them, from an artistic sense, I think have been well done. But no exclusives that I can think of outside of maybe Gears and Mass Effect really aim for a gritty, realistic look. Which I think people tend to naturally appreciate more.
 
As an owner of both consoles, with a keen interest in gaming, I have made the following observation, and would like your opinions.
....
This shift, will also eventually see PS3 games take the lead in graphics.
To many the games that will herald this shift will be Killzone 2 and Resistance 2.

I disagree.

I think the PS3 could produce superior AI/physics/"Update"/& possibly animation. Hence to my mind it could be a superior platform for certain types of games in the eyes of hardcore gamers; but what you see onscreen & in a screenshot won't be any better.

the 360's strengths are geared for graphics & the PS3's for "Update" code.

The 360 takes to crossplatform code/data well, so it will continue to get big-budget support from the main publishers... they won't make games sufficiently physics/AI heavy to break the 360.
 
I am guessing resources, backing from Sony and great people in the company.
Ie they mentioned they had about 150 Dev units in a podcast and they started on RFOM on PC and then "converted" it to PS3 when they got dev units.
And since they use their own engine, just evolve it for each title I guess the rampup is faster do to the experience with the engine. Also it just seems they got a really great bunch of people and most likely work on games in parallel. I doubt that they finished Ratchet and Clank and they went on holiday and then came back and started up with Resistance 2. Ie design and story was already there and engine team working on putting in new features that can be used for R2.

It really seems more like Insomniac Games are people are really very intelligent with their planning of RFoM, it reminds me of the way SEGA set up their Lindbergh Arcade hardware with a Intel Pentium 4HT 3.0Ghz, X GB Ram and a GeForce 6800GT (Nv40@ 350Mhz) in order to make Virtua Tennis, Virtua Fighter 5, etc though Sega is a third party in this case as well as made many poor decisions with some games (Sonic)

Its no wonder then that both of them IMO are well on their way to make graphically complex games in such a short time, just look at Ryu Ga Gotoku Kenzan! aka Yakuza 3, such a big game in less than two years on PS3's life cycle.

Meanwhile IG is banging games out every year.
 
I agree with the OP. Excellent first party developers is the main reason I bought the PS3. As a gamer it a shame Microsoft isn't trying to do the same thing. But from their perspective that sort of thing cost a lot money up front and doesn't necessary make for better games then getting third party developers to release an exclusive game.

Insomniac can release a game every year because they have one game in pre production and one game in full production. And seem to have very good planning, always releasing highly polished games on time. On their podcast they said they have many smal deadline's throughout production because this causes people to focus more on their work if they are close to the next deadline
 
This is one of the flaws with Microsoft business model, which sources 360 exclusives from independent developers, rather than relying on a stable of first party developers like Sony does.

I agree with this since I've been thinking along these lines for some time.

And this is also why I think it'll be hard for quite some time for someone to say that one platform is really superior to the other, because I believe very soon we'll see titles on the PS3 that surpass what's on offer on the 360, and this will happen not because the PS3 is superior per se, but due to the technical superiority Sony's 1st parties (+ Insomniac) have over their Microsoft counterparts.

Slightly OT: There were some comments about Rare being a shadow of their former selves. I cannot really comment on such a comparison, being a console gamer for a relatively short time (about 2.5 years) but what I saw of Banjo seemed very promising. They are very good technically (launch title Kameo...) but it seems they chose not to push graphics so much as physics and gameplay this time. Seems like it could be quite a CPU intensive title.

Regarding Insomniac Games' throughput, not much to say, they're basically development gods. :smile:
 
I agree with this since I've been thinking along these lines for some time.

And this is also why I think it'll be hard for quite some time for someone to say that one platform is really superior to the other, because I believe very soon we'll see titles on the PS3 that surpass what's on offer on the 360, and this will happen not because the PS3 is superior per se, but due to the technical superiority Sony's 1st parties (+ Insomniac) have over their Microsoft counterparts.

Slightly OT: There were some comments about Rare being a shadow of their former selves. I cannot really comment on such a comparison, being a console gamer for a relatively short time (about 2.5 years) but what I saw of Banjo seemed very promising. They are very good technically (launch title Kameo...) but it seems they chose not to push graphics so much as physics and gameplay this time. Seems like it could be quite a CPU intensive title.

Regarding Insomniac Games' throughput, not much to say, they're basically development gods. :smile:

Every game looks promising, until you finally play it in final form.

I completed both Banjo games, I dunno if this one will make me interested, they already removed a major gameplay element with Kazooie not being the same, but I am sure that new people will play it and like it.
 
From this observation it could be inferred that the 360 will lose the graphics war with PS3, not necessarily because of the hardware, but because of the lack of developers pushing the hardware to its limits.


Yep, I have been harping on this for a long time.

You can confidently make two statements about the systems, the best multi-platform game graphics are on 360, but the best overall graphics are on first party/exclusive PS3 games.

You can easily state the best graphics on 360 (probably RE5, COD4, Assasins creed etc) are third party multiplatform games. What's wrong this picture?

Look at Killzone 2, looks great, but it was a game designed with a HUGE team and a HUGE budget from the ground up to be a graphical showcase. I dont see any corollary to that on 360. The corollary in terms of team and budget would obviously be Halo 3, but I really think Bungie dropped the ball on GFX starting with Halo 2, and even before the first Halo 3 screens were revealed I had no confidence in them (it's one of the reasons I'm actually in favor of the series moving away from Bungie in the future).

Other than that MS decision to outsource so much to third parties, leaves one wondering even where any "cutting edge" graphical projects would even be able to come from in MS. I mean Epic is great, but they cant reasonably be expected to push 360 to the bleeding edge with a third party multiplatform engine. I mean, how many devs does MS even have? Turn 10? The list is woefully thin. Rare, maybe, but they haven't pushed things graphically this gen (although I think Fable 2 is one of the best looking next gen games). Bungie? I already covered my feelings about them.

There's also the possibility 360 just isn't capable of being pushed as far as PS3, I suppose, it's not my personal opinion but it needs to be touched on. Personally I think the two best looking next gen games are RE5 and KZ2, and one of those is on 360 so...

That is one of the reasons I was excited about the mysterious "Ninja Blade" project supposedly set to be unveiled at the MS showcase that then failed to materialize, rumor was it might be a graphical stunner (though it is by a third party as well), and I really wanted to see more of that out of 360.

One of the reasons I would like a team to really focus on pushing 360 to it's limits is to see if they could really leverage that EDRAM bandwidth to do some things in that area other systems couldn't. I mean every system has it's strengths to be addressed, and that is one for 360.
 
But no exclusives that I can think of outside of maybe Gears and Mass Effect really aim for a gritty, realistic look. Which I think people tend to naturally appreciate more.

Everything we've seen from Alan Wake is firmly in the gritty/realistic camp.
 
Because both systems use graphic chip designs that fall squarely inside a particular capability envelope (direct x 9+++) their graphical capabilites should max out in generally the same place... if one chip or the other was ahead generationally then there might be an argument for one system outpacing the other. Physics objects on onscreen are a different argument altogether
 
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