*spawned - The gametrailers comparison video legitimacy discussion
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I think a few here are missing the point. This isn't bad because of the "Xbox 360 vs. PS3" argument. That is incidental to the entire incident. It is bad because it indicates a much larger problem that is becoming prevalent in the "media" that covers gaming in general.
If the New York Times were to have printed the same story, this would be getting press time in every major (and minor) news outlet in the US. People expect a certain level of responsibility and accountability from their sources. Of course large papers do make mistakes like this. They end up printing retractions or sending apologies. It happens. On average though they spend a lot more time checking to make sure what they publish is reasonably accurate.
On the other hand, much of the "gaming news" has moved from large outlets and more established sites to blogs and startup networks being funded by the large players involved. I have seen blogs that are not only down right wrong, but some times hatefully so. The same video comparison that is garnering fire from GT would not have lasted 20 minutes on a forum like this as a "head to head" comparison, because it is obviously not. Their entire methodology is suspect to begin with, yet they are often cited as the defining evidence for why "Xbox games are superior to Playstation games". Now they post a video like this, where it is obvious that not only did they make a mistake in labeling footage - but that they have also played with the settings on one of the machines even though they swear they don't. What is the response?
"Ahh - it was just a mistake."
"We don't care if they get it right."
"You guys are just jealous because most XBox games are better."
That is just not true. I would be equally upset if we found the reverse situation to be true. If GT wants to pretend they are a news site doing "unbiased" comparisons, they must be held accountable when it becomes obvious that they have strayed from what they claim they are. If they aren't, then in 5-10 years the only video game news we will get is the news corporations have paid for.
If the New York Times were to have printed the same story, this would be getting press time in every major (and minor) news outlet in the US. People expect a certain level of responsibility and accountability from their sources. Of course large papers do make mistakes like this. They end up printing retractions or sending apologies. It happens. On average though they spend a lot more time checking to make sure what they publish is reasonably accurate.
On the other hand, much of the "gaming news" has moved from large outlets and more established sites to blogs and startup networks being funded by the large players involved. I have seen blogs that are not only down right wrong, but some times hatefully so. The same video comparison that is garnering fire from GT would not have lasted 20 minutes on a forum like this as a "head to head" comparison, because it is obviously not. Their entire methodology is suspect to begin with, yet they are often cited as the defining evidence for why "Xbox games are superior to Playstation games". Now they post a video like this, where it is obvious that not only did they make a mistake in labeling footage - but that they have also played with the settings on one of the machines even though they swear they don't. What is the response?
"Ahh - it was just a mistake."
"We don't care if they get it right."
"You guys are just jealous because most XBox games are better."
That is just not true. I would be equally upset if we found the reverse situation to be true. If GT wants to pretend they are a news site doing "unbiased" comparisons, they must be held accountable when it becomes obvious that they have strayed from what they claim they are. If they aren't, then in 5-10 years the only video game news we will get is the news corporations have paid for.
Whoa. I don't think so. I think the vast, vast majority of people don't give a damn and the only people who care about this kind of error are a small niche of online gaming fanatics. If the New York Times made a mistake in mislabeling screenshots in a video game article, this would not be frontpage news or headline news on CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, CBC News, etc.
What would happen is there'd be small print in the next paper with a correction.
Media does make mistakes, and in newspapers there's even a section for these corrections...
That being said, GameTrailers.com is not in the same universe as the NYT...
This is much ado about nothing. It's certainly no conspiracy. Yes, we expect the media to get it right, but let's face it -- no one is immune from mistakes. I make mistakes all the time as a software engineer, why should journalists be exempt from making them.
honestly I think the PR from E3 05 from Sony still resonates with them. With the systems being so close in real world power and 360 showing so many MP games that have the edge in the first 18 mos of head to heads, that it continues to be an intriguing prospect to compare.
Sony made the claims of "twice as powerful" and "our games will be 1080p", so it's only natural to want to get to the truth. Just like many of us here do everyday with analysis.
The game is popular by itself. The game is multiplatform and gets the same attention on all platforms. The "more popular 360 version" is something you came up with. Popularity is something subjective that can be imposed by marketing even if it is not the real deal. If you advertise one platform only you affect consumer behavior. You can communicate "popularity" as you see it fit.
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I think only GT knows exactly what went on behind the scene. No one outside can state one way or another. It doesn't have to be far fetched anti-PS3 conspiracy theory. The same outcome can happen due to a combination of sponsored articles + human error and bias; or shear oversight, incompetence and mismanagement given the repeated offences. It's business as usual, plus blatant human errors. The people who constantly bring up the term "consipracy theory" will end up being the ones who propagate that ideas.
Sure, but it's only one bad example. Doesn't tell me anything about the other good and bad examples.
I don't know. How many PS3 fans is the right number for you so that it's not "too many". The hoo-hahs started and went on elsewhere on the net too. I am not aware of any major gaming press success for the last few years despite inroads made by all 3 platform vendors in different areas. To me, that indicates they need to try something new/different. I am with Peter Moore in this aspect.
Are there repeated offences. I watched that ridiculous YouTube thing, but that was hardly a record of repeated false representation! Have GT repeatedly used footage from one console as an example of another, and worse to use that example as evidence of inferiority of one system?
Popularity in terms of sales is pretty much indisputable. The simple fact is the PS3 came to the party late. 360 install base, especially in GameTrailer's American backyard, is much larger and 360 software sales are stronger. It makes sense from a media site's perspective, who always target the largest demographic possible, when having to choose just 1 boxart, to pick the most popular one.
This is just a sensible thing to do. What is not sensible is to argue there is some kind of conspiracy at GT against the PS3.
For example: search for Devil May Cry 4. The boxart is PS3, not Xbox 360: http://www.gametrailers.com/search.php?s=devil+may+cry+4
DMC is a classic PS title and sells more on the PS3. It uses PS3 boxart...
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The conspiracy are made by the people who play video games since the 80's which also work in the video game industry or cooperate in the gaming development in some case. It's kind of normal to advertise the better version of the game & hype it which is paid by the obvious one(Microsoft, Sony or maybe.. the 3rd party software company?).
With the PlayStation & PlayStation 2 success, what can we do about it about all the whining? I think everyone will just ignore it at the end & goes on which is the conspiracy of the anti-PS3 business.
SDF could have work to make money with some easy prey visitor, but have been easily pointed out as liar. What can be used as the TRUTH & take more easy prey visitor?
IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!
Note: I am paid by MS(sarcasm)
With the PlayStation & PlayStation 2 success, what can we do about it about all the whining? I think everyone will just ignore it at the end & goes on which is the conspiracy of the anti-PS3 business.
SDF could have work to make money with some easy prey visitor, but have been easily pointed out as liar. What can be used as the TRUTH & take more easy prey visitor?
IT'S A CONSPIRACY!!!
Note: I am paid by MS(sarcasm)
I don't think past mistakes and bad judgements are as big as the latest one. I remember skimming through their "Top 10 PS3 Exclusive Games" video... it was done right before Sony's launch of exclusive PS3 titles (There was this stupid period where Sony cramped all of its releases close to each other due to prior delays). They also chose a mockery presentation style. Unfortunately, the timing was bad because it looked like they were trying to capitalize on the short window to make fun of their PS3 readers. The content was also poorly written (Not much of a review).
I remembered asking myself why the editors chose to release the video when it would hurt everyone without any good reasons and upside. It seems that given the timing, they could have pitched a deal to Sony to promote their exclusive games... unless they got the boot from Sony beforehand and were crossed. Whatever the reasons, I don't care since I'm not a shareholder. However, I did chalk gametrailers as one of the clueless people in the gaming industry.
So in my mind, it doesn't have to be consipracy theory. Could be just human errors, bias, bad judgement and/or mismanagement.
Oh come on, the PR is strong with both sides - let me remind you of the famous " well you know what, with Xbox 360 the age of jaggies is over! (Peter Moore)"
Bad ported MP titles don't show the strength of the platform at all, as every SP title so far proves the opposite. Thankfully the time of bad ports seems to be over by now
And it'S no justification for the behavior GT showed with their articles/videos.
Very strange that there has been no "uproar" on Beyond3d about the lies spread in numerous GTA4 reviews, especially given that its such a high impact title. But, since people on this forum seem believe in conspiracy theories, I'd love to hear what you think about that one.
For example, numerous online reviews listed the PS3 version as having a better framerate, when its clearly obvious to anyone with one eye or greater than the 360's is better. Do you guys think all these online magazines that participated in spreading this false information were all paid by Sony? Or, do you think all those magazines just have a natural Sony bias? How do you think that conspiracy was handled to purposely deflate the 360 version with incorrect info on such a large scale? Were they all just more clever than GT to not get caught? Do you still have faith in all these online magazine when so many displayed this PS3 bias, or shame on all of them?
For example, numerous online reviews listed the PS3 version as having a better framerate, when its clearly obvious to anyone with one eye or greater than the 360's is better. Do you guys think all these online magazines that participated in spreading this false information were all paid by Sony? Or, do you think all those magazines just have a natural Sony bias? How do you think that conspiracy was handled to purposely deflate the 360 version with incorrect info on such a large scale? Were they all just more clever than GT to not get caught? Do you still have faith in all these online magazine when so many displayed this PS3 bias, or shame on all of them?
And yet earlier you've said your thoughts are:
Gaming sites regularly get it wrong on both sides of the coin. It's a bit immature to throw around conspiracy theories when this sort of thing happens, IMO - especially when it's only done for the side of your console-of-choice (refer to joker's post above).
GT however needs to get a response out there, since it's a lot harder to build a positive reputation than it is to destroy one.
The complains against Gametrailer, I believe, stems from a history of past discords. I don't think people react to one-off incidents unless it was blatant (like the Gamespot fiasco).
If it's about specific games such as GTA4, we might want to start with the publisher/dev. My guess is the reviewers needed time to complete the game, and they took statements (personal or official) from R* for granted.
In addition, it was hard to compare the games because they both had different visual issues, and as you mentioned in your own posts -- it depends on what TV they used. Even for measuring framerates, the original program grandmaster used has some flaws. So I don't think any of the reviewers would have caught it within the short time they were given.
If it's about specific games such as GTA4, we might want to start with the publisher/dev. My guess is the reviewers needed time to complete the game, and they took statements (personal or official) from R* for granted.
In addition, it was hard to compare the games because they both had different visual issues, and as you mentioned in your own posts -- it depends on what TV they used. Even for measuring framerates, the original program grandmaster used has some flaws. So I don't think any of the reviewers would have caught it within the short time they were given.
They have responded on the Kotaku website not their own.
A simple mistake they claim, but even if it was there is still the question of why compare to completely different types of crash if you are trying to say one version is better than the other. Of course a crash at an angle is going to look more spectacular than a straight on collision into a wall.
A simple mistake they claim, but even if it was there is still the question of why compare to completely different types of crash if you are trying to say one version is better than the other. Of course a crash at an angle is going to look more spectacular than a straight on collision into a wall.
...but my theory about MS's European attack (and sponsored articles + ad buys) is based on their Gamer Day event next week, plus other media activities we already know. Sponsored articles are business as usual, certainly not some conspiracy theory that a few people here like to bring up.
Now as for whether Gametrailer guys do their job well, that is the thing in question. People have caught them doing wrong things. It's up to them how they want to behave moving forward.
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DMC uses the PS3 logo because it was originally believed to be a PS3 exclusive. If it was announced multiplatform form the beginning you wouldnt have seen the PS3 logo
Resident Evil was popular on the Playstation platforms for more than a decade, never existed on an XBOX before. Resi 5 uses a 360 logo.
Also just the fact that the 360 came earlier and managed to acquire more sales doesnt mean that its version of the same game available on the PS3 is more popular. The console may be more popular in terms of sales only in one territory (bias alert) but the game as I mentioned earlier is popular by its own regardless of version. Platform is irrelevant. 360 isnt more popular than the PS3 no matter how you put it. Their market strength and in terms of quality is equal. It is not like the PS3 suddenly went down the drain thus should be outshadowed by the better 360. PS3 is doing well and has managed to recover in a manner that it shows that its market power is just as strong.
Why is Grid more popular on the 360 than on the PS3 for example?
Also since you mentioned that GT is an American Backyard equals bias by itself.
And I repeat what was deleted from my post unintentionally. There subjct is not about conspiracy. It is about bias. Bias does not equal conspiracy.
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Ok I'll stop posting funny posts without being serious.
The real thing behind it is a simple editing error that uproar toward PS3 fanboy. I'm not a game developper or whatever, but I do video editing which is an obvious error I could make myself.
I usually use premiere pro which is not very different from Final Cut Pro. When you do comparison, you sync, displace both track layers & cut them at the same place. Obviously, I will put the subtitle first & place the video track of the conresponding time in the timeline after.
It's not like my editing screen is 720P but rater a smaller rendered screen to work with to be able to work instead of rendering the whole frame. I never did a comparison of the same game, but if the frame look similar in the small rendered work screen(320X240) I can easily mess up myself by confusing myself for the right video track, if I'm in a hurry to encode the video.
When you sync the video track, you leave the other video track as a reference to make sure it is synchronized. He must backed the wrong video track cut in his history & place it in the XBOX 360 title slow motion crash timeline.
I'm pretty sure both version of GRID were used since one had screen tearing & the other didn't during the downhill run.
In the end, if you tried both version, the crashes are similar on both version.
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Bias is impossible to avoid.
GameTrailers is an American site thats primary audience is English-speaking, presumably American viewers. The 360 is a lot more popular than the PS3 in this market.
That said, mistakes also happen. But claiming because GT primarily uses the 360 boxart for multiplayer games is likely because most of the people viewing the game profile, in GT's target market, have 360s.
There's absolutely no connection between that and making the claim that GameTrailers intentionally mislabeled screenshots to make the PS3 sell worse. GameTrailers doesn't care, they just want viewers. It's far more likely the person making the comparison was under deadline pressure (traffic picks up dramatically around launch of the game, pressure is on to get it done then) and made an honest mistake.
dabomb665m
Newcomer
I think a lot of you are missing the point here. I can pretty much point out each poster's biases just from posting history alone but I'm not going to point out names.
The point is: Regardless of labelling or version used (let's assume they labelled AND used the right versions), why are they comparing two completely different captures? I don't think anyone can give me a good reason for that.
Edit: I urge everyone who is participating in this discussion to actually view the video at hand. It's easily found on youtube. Any amateur can tell you that the scenes being compared were not created on equal terms. This isn't GTA4 here... there's no "unpredictable" world here as an excuse for two obviously different angled recordings. Creating pretty much exact crashes shouldn't be rocket science.
The point is: Regardless of labelling or version used (let's assume they labelled AND used the right versions), why are they comparing two completely different captures? I don't think anyone can give me a good reason for that.
Edit: I urge everyone who is participating in this discussion to actually view the video at hand. It's easily found on youtube. Any amateur can tell you that the scenes being compared were not created on equal terms. This isn't GTA4 here... there's no "unpredictable" world here as an excuse for two obviously different angled recordings. Creating pretty much exact crashes shouldn't be rocket science.
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