Fallout 3

[DuckThor Evil]

The video is too poor of quality.

I think that is a bit of an understatement. That video should win the oscar for being the crappiest comparison/quality video the world has ever seen!

 

[betan]

Ok. Need some story advice. Just started it last night. So, I'm only a few hours in. The following will only be spoilers to those who just started the game.

Spoiler

I got to Megaton city. When first arriving, and talking to the Sheriff (can't remember his name), I agreed to look at the bomb and try to disarm it. Now, after meeting a guy in the bar (he has a suit on) that wants to blow the city up, I told him I would help him. I figured I would go along and then just turn him in. I did just that, but the result seems to be the Sheriff's death (after the Sheriff tries to arrest the guy in the suit). Am I doing more harm than good this way? I have save games before talking to the guy in the suit and right before the Sheriff confronts him, so, I can alter my decision. Trying to stop him from killing the Sheriff after he's arrested doesn't seem to help.

I read somewhere that there is a very small window of opportunity to kill

Spoiler

the guy before he attacks the Sheriff, after Sheriff leaves the building

or something. I simply

Spoiler

disarmed the bomb without mentioning Burke to the Sheriff.

Money was just not enough.

However I'm not sure what you mean by "more harm than good" part? Are you asking about karma? Because it's not really important (as in easy to change). Or are you asking about missing some potential quest lines? Or are you simply sorry for the guy?

Now that I think about it, I have another question.

Spoiler

Right before exiting the vault, the girl who throws your birthday party (can't remember her name either) comes to the vault exit. After talking to her, security guards rush in and start shooting. In all the chaos, I couldn't tell if she was killed by them or not. They ran me out before I could investigate. Was she killed by the guards?

.

No idea, in my case

Spoiler

I killed all the guards attacking me, so she was alive

.

 

[Gradthrawn]

I read somewhere that there is a very small window of opportunity to kill

Spoiler

the guy before he attacks the Sheriff, after Sheriff leaves the building

or something. I simply

Spoiler

disarmed the bomb without mentioning Burke to the Sheriff.

Money was just not enough.

Perhaps that's what I should do. Was there any particular skill you needed?

Spoiler

Whenever I approach the bomb, the only option I see is to "activate" it. This is before and after accepting Burke's request. I will also try again and look for that small window to kill Burke before he shoots the Sheriff.

However I'm not sure what you mean by "more harm than good" part? Are you asking about karma? Because it's not really important (as in easy to change). Or are you asking about missing some potential quest lines? Or are you simply sorry for the guy?

Yes, more along the lines of potential quest. And the overall effect it would have on the city (if any). I just got through playing Fable, so, I'm still in the "a bad decision can destroy a city" mindset.

No idea, in my case

Spoiler

I killed all the guards attacking me, so she was alive

.

Spoiler

Wow. I tried that, but after killing the 2nd, they were rushing in and I was completely outnumbered. But if you killed all of the guards attacking you, and she was still alive, that pretty much answers my question. When they first come in they start shooting, and at that point I lost track of her. Which is why I wondered if that initial attack had killed her (as some sort of scripted event).

Thanks for the help.

 

[betan]

Perhaps that's what I should do. Was there any particular skill you needed?

Spoiler

the skill is explosives, you are gonna need at least a little of it to do anything with the bomb.
But disarming may require more skill than setting it to go off. I'm not sure now but mine was around middle 20s + mentat.

Spoiler

Whenever I approach the bomb, the only option I see is to "activate" it. This is before and after accepting Burke's request. I will also try again and look for that small window to kill Burke before he shoots the Sheriff.

The term activate doesn't refer to activating the bomb, but activating the bomb menu, which includes both actions. Unfortunately Bethesda uses the same terminology for all intractable objects without thinking about the context, and it can be confusing for newcomers. Not very elegant way of doing things, but this is Bethesda after all.

If you don't have enough skill for particular interaction, the game will tell you. That quest doesn't seem to be part of main quest, so you can take your time, level up a couple of times and come back, especially if you are planning to

Spoiler

nuke the town

.

Yes, more along the lines of potential quest. And the overall effect it would have on the city (if any). I just got through playing Fable, so, I'm still in the "a bad decision can destroy a city" mindset.

Well, I'm not sure about your particular choice. But if I were you, I'd let

Spoiler

Sheriff die, because Burke seems to be more interesting character, more connected, and more likely to reappear. Plus if you kill Burke town people may attack you as well

. Otherwise, my guess is there is not going to be any significance difference as far as quests go.

I'm sure that goes without saying, but if you

Spoiler

nuke the town, you will loose all side quests in Megatown

.

 

[PARANOiA]

Hrmm, I just started today. I made a character that I was hoping would be a non-violent sort - mostly speech, lockpicking, stealth with some other non-weapon skills. I ended up starting again since most missions require combat and I was getting slaughtered.

Any tips for someone who feels like they're "playing it wrong"?

 

[Gradthrawn]

Spoiler

the skill is explosives, you are gonna need at least a little of it to do anything with the bomb.
But disarming may require more skill than setting it to go off. I'm not sure now but mine was around middle 20s + mentat.

The term activate doesn't refer to activating the bomb, but activating the bomb menu, which includes both actions. Unfortunately Bethesda uses the same terminology for all intractable objects without thinking about the context, and it can be confusing for newcomers. Not very elegant way of doing things, but this is Bethesda after all.

If you don't have enough skill for particular interaction, the game will tell you. That quest doesn't seem to be part of main quest, so you can take your time, level up a couple of times and come back, especially if you are planning to

Spoiler

nuke the town

.

Well, I'm not sure about your particular choice. But if I were you, I'd let

Spoiler

Sheriff die, because Burke seems to be more interesting character, more connected, and more likely to reappear. Plus if you kill Burke town people may attack you as well

. Otherwise, my guess is there is not going to be any significance difference as far as quests go.

I'm sure that goes without saying, but if you

Spoiler

nuke the town, you will loose all side quests in Megatown

.

Much obliged. Ultimately,

Spoiler

I let the Sheriff die. I killed Burke (hadn't seen your response yet) and that actually gave me good Karma. I'm glad I didn't Nuke the town. After disarming the bomb, the house they gave me has been invaluable. I keep a lot of stuff stored there.

Hrmm, I just started today. I made a character that I was hoping would be a non-violent sort - mostly speech, lockpicking, stealth with some other non-weapon skills. I ended up starting again since most missions require combat and I was getting slaughtered.

Any tips for someone who feels like they're "playing it wrong"?

I made a speech, lockpicking, stealth focused character as well (plus science). Really struggled for the first, I don't know, 10 hours. But, things have picked up quite a bit. I still dredge the dungeon crawling, err tunnel crawling, but by approaching situations with patience, along with a good save pattern, I've been able to mange pretty well. For this type of character, from what I've seen, face-to-face confrontations with an armed (gun) opponents don't go to well. The sneak attack bonus along with creating angles, or areas of cover, between me and the opponent has been crucial. Along with some well timed grenade attacks when they're in groups.

 

[patsu]

Gradthrawn, is the game buggy ?

 

[PARANOiA]

Well I re-rolled a third time, this time making a speech and small-arms centric character. Most of the early guns, including rifles and shotguns, fall into that group, so it made life so much easier.

I've barely left Megaton - completing all of the Megaton quest chains before seeing too much else of the world or diving into the main story - and I'm not having a blast. The game - to its benefit or detriment - does feel a whole lot like Oblivion. The "world" is much more enjoyable than generic fantasy world x of course, and I'm curious as to why more WRPG's don't dive into "modern"/sci-fiish worlds more often.

I'm a little curious as to how "distinct" I can mould a character. Can I max out all skills by the level cap? If so there's not a whole lot of incentive to replay the game, other than trying the different ways to complete a quest... but that just means I have to choose how to finish a quest, rather than simply having a limited path due to the way I've designed my character. I'd like to make a stealth melee lockpicker/hacker, but will I need to is my real question.

One of my saves corrupted, too, which was a shame. There's a few bugs here and there, but for a game of this scope I'm more than willing to forgive. It's simply part of the open world game design problem... too much can go wrong given there's little linearity.

So far I've put in maybe 7 or 8 hours in total, and I'm having fun. I highly recommend it at this stage, and will keep you all posted.

 

[Gradthrawn]

Gradthrawn, is the game buggy ?

Compared to the bug fest that was Fable, no, it seems quite solid. The only notable problems I've observed are the occasional "enemy in wall" glitches. I'm about 30 hours in. I have the 360 version, but I would assume the PS3 version is as solid.

 

[patsu]

Okay good. Give me a sec while I stomp my friend's virtual butt for lying to me.

 

[Gradthrawn]

Okay good. Give me a sec while I stomp my friend's virtual butt for lying to me.

Any particular glitches he pointed out? I may simply be overlooking them. But, I have noted to myself several times how solid (bug wise) the game has been thus far (comparatively speaking).

 

[patsu]

He was just making general comments about Fallout and Oblivion.

 

[betan]

Fallout 3 PS3 is a much better port than Oblivion was.
It runs way smoother too. I have seen framerate drop in the wasteland, and the game stalls for a couple of seconds after OS notifications. Overall though I'm pleasantly surprised how good it runs, given that 360 was lead platform and all the noise PStriplers were making.

I noticed terrible jaggies when the PC was a kid, then I guess I got used to it because I haven't seen much after that. The streaming engine is now much better as well and it's smarter when it comes to reloading, really fast stuff.

As for gameplay, all I can say is NPC pathfinding AI has been improved tremendously since Morrowind days. Main quest story is at least better than Oblivion's which doesn't say much though. Game sounds and animates exactly like Oblivion and Morrowind. It takes real talent not to be able to improve on those.

Quest and dialogue engines are pretty much same too.
I really don't mind that the game runs on the exact same Gamebryo engine, but it doesn't play like Oblivion. I'll go as far to say that it's a huge downgrade from Oblivion.

First of all, I very much prefer the colorful, generic fantasy setting and lore of Oblivion to dark, empty and depressing post nuclear war setting of Fallout.

I really really hate side quest hunting you have to do in Fallout trilogy. F3 has fewer "settlements", settlements have fewer NPCs, and the ratio of quest initiators to all NPCs seems much lower than it was in Oblivion!!! The variety doesn't seem any better either. In fact, besides the last couple of objectives of main quest, I have not seen a single quest that is original even in the slightest way.

The whole mandatory subway tunnel traversal thing was too much and unnecessary, and doesn't work with game's 1D (angular) objective pointer system at all. It seems to me a result of hardware limitation than a conscious gameplay decision.

The SPECIAL skill system sucks, as many tabletop RPG rules do. I don't really know why Fallout has so many fans. It simply doesn't work besides combat oriented RPGs like KOTOR or JRPGs. But this should be a proper _role_ playing game. In TES, you get skill points for practicing skills. In Fallout you get medicine skill by killing scorpions!!! I blame Fallout fanatics for this ridiculousness in F3. (To be fair, in Oblivion you can get any skill temporarily by magicka)

While on that topic, I don't think Oblivion hater Fallout lovers have any right to complain at all. This is probably more respectful sequel than anything Black Isle would have made in 3D, except maybe in the humor or squad based gameplay departments. We certainly have seen "less Falloutish" Fallout games before.

The combat itself was more about tedious resource management than anything else early on. Then it became a little fun when I found a special plasma rifle, partially thanks to pleasing critical strikes of energy weapons as opposed to totally unnecessary and overused gore, but unfortunately it was quickly replaced by nothing but repetitiveness. Probably I too should have gone with stealth based, assassin type character, too bad I have no plans of replaying this game any time soon.

As for the maxing up skills, with high intelligence you get up to 23 skill points per level up, which means coupled with some skill improvement perks, around level 17 you can easily max up many of the skills.

I had low explosives, barter, big guns, melee, unarmed and stealth skills. Medicine was around 85, everything else was above 95. I found 3 or 4 skill bobble-heads though.

BTW, I played as a good character but that wasn't really an intentional choice. Solving a quest in a longer way by peaceful methods or by completing optional objective always seem to result in better rewards. Good karma was just a side effect. Since I had trouble finding quests, it was only logical to make most of what I had (until I got bored of the game that is).

In short, another overhyped game under the shadow of Oblivion. And if this is what Bethesda could achieve two years after Oblivion, I really worry about the 2010 TES V.

ps:I hate reading long posts.

 

[L233]

The SPECIAL skill system sucks, as many tabletop RPG rules do. I don't really know why Fallout has so many fans. It simply doesn't work besides combat oriented RPGs like KOTOR or JRPGs. But this should be a proper _role_ playing game. In TES, you get skill points for practicing skills. In Fallout you get medicine skill by killing scorpions!!! I blame Fallout fanatics for this ridiculousness in F3. (To be fair, in Oblivion you can get any skill temporarily by magicka)

Unless you have a tedious usage-based skill system, it's not a role playing game? Are you serious?

Role playing games are about avatar-mediated action. That's what the "role" thing is all about. It doesn't matter what sort of numerical abstraction is used to represent character abilities and skills. You're playing the game in the role of the character, which means that the character's abilities and skills, and not yours, determine the failure or success of an action.

This is, by the way, why action-clicky-combat and minigames and crap like that all go counter the idea of RPG gameplay. Oblivion almost completely did away with the notion of stats being important, which is why the game was more of an action-adventure than a RPG. That could have completely done away with levels and skills in Oblivion and I doubt anyone would have missed them. It would have had little, if any, impact on the game experience.

Anyway, usage-based skill systems suck, always have and always will. Here's why:

1. They're tedious, forcing your to do repetitive stuff that often don't make any sense if you want build up your skill level.
2. They take planning and decision making out of character developement. You can do it all, just repeat always the same actions for an hour or two and you might just become the master of everything.
3. Rarely used skills become useless quickly unless you want to do 1. for every damn skill

In short, another overhyped game under the shadow of Oblivion. And if this is what Bethesda could achieve two years after Oblivion, I really worry about the 2010 TES V.

FO3 is overhyped, sure, but it's much better than Oblivion - which happens to be, in my opinion, one of the worst RPGs ever made. In fact, it's not even a RPG, it's a conglomeration of retarded, boring, ultra-linear action-adventure episodes ("quests") that were aimlessly thrown into a generic, unimaginative and boring fantasy sandbox. Plus, the main plot is pathetic, much more so than FO3's, which is pretty bad also.

FO3 at least has:

• proper dialogue trees instead of zombie-NPCs spouting conversation fragments that are triggered by keywords.
• quests that allow for different outcomes based on your choices (all quests in Oblivion had exactly one possible outcome)
• skill checks for various actions (barely a factor in Oblivion, a game that you can beat with a level 2 character)
• a reasonable skill system (SPECIAL) that forces you to make choices about your character, instead of this "stick a screwdriver into your keyboard and swim/sneak against a wall for 2 hours to max swimming/sneaking" nonsense in the TES games. Or the "run and jump through the landscape to level up" idiocy. What a horrible game mechanic this usage-based skill systems nonsense is...

If the next TES retains the strengths of FO3 it might actually become a good game. It would be the first TES game that's not a complete waste of time and an utter insult to every serious RPG fan. And just imagine if Bethesda fired those chimps with typewriters who make up Bethesda's writing staff and replaced them with decent, competent writers.

I mean, Bethesda could sell crap in a box and it would still be better than that horrible abomination that is Oblivion. With FO3, they made Oblivion with guns and ripped off some Fallout gameplay traits and the resulst is so much better than everything Bethesda has ever done before. Next they should rip off the idea of party influence and NPC interaction from KotOR 2.

The thing is, Bethesda is so useless as a RPG developer, they basically HAVE to steal ideas in order to produce anything worthwhile. If they don't, all they can come up with is garbage like Oblivion.

 

[betan]

Anyway, usage-based skill systems suck, always have and always will. Here's why:
[*]They're tedious, forcing your to do repetitive stuff that often don't make any sense if you want build up your skill level.

I don't really understand this mentality at all. Ignore the word "role" for a second if that's what's bugging you , how does lock picking for lock picking skill make less sense than doing lock picking for speech skill? Seriously?

[*]They take planning and decision making out of character developement. You can do it all, just repeat always the same actions for an hour or two and you might just become the master of everything.

The planning you have to do for smarter leveling up in Oblivion is way bigger and more involved than any planning you have to do in any Fallout game which basically throws you most of the skills with decent intelligence.

Plus in Oblivion, you can play the game even if you start with "stupid" skills. Early on, in Fallout games you have to choose between skills not knowing what game will throw at you, ie. which skill is more important for what. You either have to replay the game when you cannot do something you want, or simply search a guide or something. What's the point of this planning without not knowing?
Take energy weapons for example. Why do I have to invest in energy weapons that I don't see in the game for a long time?

[*]Rarely used skills become useless quickly unless you want to do 1. for every damn skill

And this is bad how exactly?

Plus, the main plot is pathetic, much more so than FO3's, which is pretty bad also.

True as I said before. Fortunately in Oblivion you are not limited to main quest to get a continues uninterrupted epic enjoyment.

FO3 at least has:
[*]proper dialogue trees instead of zombie-NPCs spouting conversation fragments that are triggered by keywords.

They have the exact same tree system to the point where your character only spells the first sentence (ignoring rest), and here is why sentence selection sucks even more so than keyword selection:
I cannot ask the questions I really want to ask, I am stuck with the writer's imagination and effort. At least keyword selection, you have left with your imagination to fill in the gaps.

In sentence selection I have to ask the questions I don't really want to know. Let's say an NPC already told me another one killed his sister. Now I have to go to that NPC and ask "what happened to your sister?". That's much more illusion breaking than clicking the "sister" keyword which can simply mean "what about your sister?" or "tell me about your sister." etc.

[*]quests that allow for different outcomes based on your choices (all quests in Oblivion had exactly one possible outcome)

That's mostly true. Yet in the end, in Oblivion you have more choices to make.
What's lacking in Oblivion is the a real concept of consequence. While I appreciate the value of it, I don't really want to replay the game to be able to do more quests or satisfy my curiosity to see some other outcomes I missed.It certainly wouldn't work for a huge game like Oblivion.

[*]skill checks for various actions (barely a factor in Oblivion, a game that you can beat with a level 2 character)

The only reason you cannot beat Fallout 3 at level 2 is because the game forces you to level up unlike Oblivion. Plus there is no significant skill check in the main quest anyway.

[*]a reasonable skill system (SPECIAL) that forces you to make choices about your character, instead of this "stick a screwdriver into your keyboard and swim/sneak against a wall for 2 hours to max swimming/sneaking" nonsense in the TES games. Or the "run and jump through the landscape to level up" idiocy. What a horrible game mechanic this usage-based skill systems nonsense is...

I pity the PC gamer who resorts to a screwdriver to cheat. There are certainly easier ways to cheat on PC. Of course this is a console forum, and neither of those are possible.

Next they should rip off the idea of party influence and NPC interaction from KotOR 2.

I wish

 

[Versatil]

I own both Xbox 360 and PS3. What version do you recommend me? I heard texture and lightning are a little bit more complex on the PS3 version. Is that true?

 

[Gradthrawn]

I own both Xbox 360 and PS3. What version do you recommend me? I heard texture and lightning are a little bit more complex on the PS3 version. Is that true?

Everything I read (up until the point of purchase) seemed to indicate the 360 version being superior in some way shape or form (which is why I got the 360 version). Although, its been difficult finding good comparative info for this latest slew of multiplatform games and I generally end up having to toss a coin.

 

[Neb]

I own both Xbox 360 and PS3. What version do you recommend me? I heard texture and lightning are a little bit more complex on the PS3 version. Is that true?

You should pick up the xbox360 version if slightly better LOD, texture detail/res and framerate is what you want since you got both consoles. Lighting seems the same based on screenshots posted on this forum and web +/- output gamma/contrast/brightness difference.

 

[zawarudo]

The 360 version is better hands down. The PS3 build is a crappy port that doesn't even sport ANY form of AA.

 

[Scott_Arm]

You should pick up the xbox360 version if slightly better LOD, texture detail/res and framerate is what you want since you got both consoles. Lighting seems the same based on screenshots posted on this forum and web +/- output gamma/contrast/brightness difference.

Isn't the 360 getting exclusive or timed exclusive DLC or something? That might be a good reason, if true.