Fallout 3

[betan]

New screenshots:
http://www.pcgames.de/aid,638781/Po...&order=POSITION&viewcnt=1&image_id=802603#top

Nothing special, most of them are even ugly.
Still, I'm curious about the game, so decided to create a new thread as opposed to resurrecting the dead one.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

I dont have much faith in Bethesda pulling this off. Oblivion and Morrowind RPG elements have completely sucked compared to what Fallout 2 offered 14 or so years ago. And going by the developer interviews, Fallout 2 will most likely still have the best RPG elements after Fallout 3 comes.

Bethesda is just not interested in what Fallout 1 and 2 is about, they are just interested in converting their essentially broken game oblivion into a post apocalyptic world, and sell a million copies on hype alone and be done with it.

(Yes i know Oblivion got high scores from all reviewers, but i dont know why, its basically morrowind with better graphics and some n00b features to make everything easier but it doesn't adress any of the flaws Morrowind had, probably oblivion got so high scores because no reviewer has the time to play the game enough to notice all the flaws. In Oblivion you still have no conversation, no way to interact with the gameworld besides just killing stuff and making stuff for quest. While in Fallout most of the time was spend talking to people, and you really could make a huge impact in the world by just talking. Not to mention i doubt they will be able to make it as gory as the originial was.))

 

[Daozang]

Oblivion IMO is an action RPG with a few traditional RPG elements thrown in. Morrowind was in many ways a better game. But, all these do not make it a bad game. I'm sure that Bethesda will go the same way with Fallout.
I'm expecting a game that will be based on the setting of the previous 2, hopefully with a great atmosphere.
Truth be told, I'm not sure that we've seen a traditional CRPG the last few years, even by RPG veterans such as Bioware. For many gamers (all but the hardcore I presume) that's not a bad thing... After all, ME and Oblivion sold quite well.

 

[shiznit]

I agree with Ostepop, the Elder Scrolls games have never been good and their gameplay is not fun.

This better not be Elder Scrolls in the Fallout setting even more noob-friendly (ie pussyfied) than Oblibion, which was greatly overrated by almost everyone.

I haven't played a good RPG since KOTOR (sorry Mass Effect, you were dumbed down as well), and nothing has yet topped Fallout 1-2 and Planescape.

 

[betan]

I dont have much faith in Bethesda pulling this off. Oblivion and Morrowind RPG elements have completely sucked compared to what Fallout 2 offered 14 or so years ago. And going by the developer interviews, Fallout 2 will most likely still have the best RPG elements after Fallout 3 comes.

Bethesda is just not interested in what Fallout 1 and 2 is about, they are just interested in converting their essentially broken game oblivion into a post apocalyptic world, and sell a million copies on hype alone and be done with it.

(Yes i know Oblivion got high scores from all reviewers, but i dont know why, its basically morrowind with better graphics and some n00b features to make everything easier but it doesn't adress any of the flaws Morrowind had, probably oblivion got so high scores because no reviewer has the time to play the game enough to notice all the flaws. In Oblivion you still have no conversation, no way to interact with the gameworld besides just killing stuff and making stuff for quest. While in Fallout most of the time was spend talking to people, and you really could make a huge impact in the world by just talking. Not to mention i doubt they will be able to make it as gory as the originial was.))

I agree that Oblivion didn't improve much on Morrowind, it was more of the same basically.
Stories tend to sucks too. Still, I prefer TES games to Fallout serries.

While a deeper conversation system with consequence is always welcome, I don't want spending most of my time talking to people which was the case in Fallout 2 for me.
I also prefer guild quest structure to quest for finding quest approach of Fallout 2, since I like to ignore random side quests.

Plus skill system of TES games feels much more natural than SPECIAL or any skill point distribution system. Apparently Fallout 3 will have level locking upon encounter so much hated enemy scaling should not be an issue there.

In short I don't want a next gen Fallout game really, I want Oblivion with Guns(TM) and much varied immersive quests minus flower collection.

So I too am worried about Fallout 3, but for much different reasons.

I haven't played a good RPG since KOTOR

I like KOTOR 2 better than the first if only for the influence system. I still remember falling in love with the idiot called Handmaiden and blind girl (Visas?) declaring her blind love for me.
One of the best presentations in any game, really sucked me in.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Truth be told, I'm not sure that we've seen a traditional CRPG the last few years, even by RPG veterans such as Bioware. For many gamers (all but the hardcore I presume) that's not a bad thing... After all, ME and Oblivion sold quite well.

I dont know if thats a good thing or bad.

5 million people buy NFS per year, the way i see that is, that this is good for EA because they have learned that they can make crap games and just earn money by advertising the hell out of it.

Is it a "good thing" for the gamers?

I would rather see those 5 million people buy actually good games, so that the developers of the good games gets proper founding for their next projects.

Ofcourse this is quite a different example than ME and Oblivion, while both may be dissapointments to seasoned gamers like you and me, ME and Oblivion are good games, they are just to dumbed down for us along with a few other things.

 

[Daozang]

Yeah, I know what you mean... And I agree. But the way things are now, who are the good developers? Bioware is one, but ME was, for me at least, considerably dumbed down when compared to other Bioware games.
What we see is a trend and not innability from the developers part. As long as this trend works (the games sell well) it will IMO continue.
Looks like we are in the minority... Most people don't seem to care for <very> complex games anymore.

 

[betan]

Yeah, I know what you mean... And I agree. But the way things are now, who are the good developers? Bioware is one, but ME was, for me at least, considerably dumbed down when compared to other Bioware games.
What we see is a trend and not innability from the developers part. As long as this trend works (the games sell well) it will IMO continue.
Looks like we are in the minority... Most people don't seem to care for <very> complex games anymore.

KOTOR is a great game but how is it a complex one?
Honestly I'm not even sure it's an RPG as in role-playing besides the good-evil angle and three similar classes.

I really don't get this Oblivion hate. In Oblivion you can choose to play as a thief, an assasin, a fighter, mage, etc. There is even a suitable (though lame) story for each of them besides the main quest. It seems to be more role-playing than most if not all other RPGs out there.

 

[Daozang]

I like Oblivion! I certainly don't hate it!
The only thing that bugs me is the leved enemies... Also the fact that there are no choices in terms of story. For me Oblivion is more like Diablo than Baldurs Gate and Planescape or Fallout. When it comes to CRPGs, these are the games that define the term for me for countless reasons.
That being said, an ARPG is always wellcome. And I don't need to point the fact that these things are very subjective anyway.
It's just that in my mind, action RPG does not equal RPG. And those of us who played those games had something else in mind when we were thinking about the evolution of those games. That's why we seem to be somewhat disapointed.
But I guess we have to go along with the times like everyone else.

 

[pc0day]

I like Oblivion! I certainly don't hate it!
The only thing that bugs me is the leved enemies...

I agree with this.

 

[rekator]

One fact is important, Oblivion and ME need to be "mass appeal" so Oblivion was less complex and deeper than Morrowind for this, and ME who is a first sequel need to be also not complex and deeper…
Take Lost Odyssey is a JRPG made with some challenger's Boss (not so hard in fact) but due to with it's got a perception of a "harder" JRPG, but it's less harder and longer to fight many Boss in LO than in FF10…

Big RPG cost many time and so money, you need to sell the "1 Million" and for this publishers push to the so love casual target…

For Fallout 3 is a new IP on the console market so probably need to be "casual"…

P.S: May be "hardcore" RPGs can be released on XNA and PSN… a reedition of Planescape will be great

 

[betan]

Level scaling of the enemies was not an issue for me.
I played the whole game at level 4 vampire (one level was effectively forced on me), didn't feel the need for leveling up. I do remember a shrine that required something like level 8 to enter though.

Since the game has easily abusable attribute multipliers I don't see how level scaling can be a problem.

My biggest issue with the game is probably "flower collecting" like time wasters. Second would be finite state machine AI. Third is total lack of correlation between guild quests and main quest.
I don't really mind linear story, but you save the damn world, become a hero, the fighters guild guy still treats you like a noob and sends you to kill some rats in some basement instead of worshiping his new demigod.

Indoor outdoor area transitions better disappear as well.

 

[shiznit]

I like KOTOR 2 better than the first if only for the influence system. I still remember falling in love with the idiot called Handmaiden and blind girl (Visas?) declaring her blind love for me.
One of the best presentations in any game, really sucked me in.

I agree that KOTOR2 was better in many ways, especially the influence system and talent trees, but I didn't mention it because of the cut features and rushed ending. Hopefully the Restoration Project manages to finish soon.

The vast majority of people who buy these games now have never played classics like Fallout or Planescape or Baldur's Gate so you can bet future multiplatform RPGs will continue to be pussyfied for this crowd just like Oblivion and Mass Effect. Unless Dragon Age really delivers, old school western RPGs are facing extinction.

 

[PARANOiA]

the Elder Scrolls games have never been good and their gameplay is not fun.

That's a great example of selling your opinion as fact. Have you ever thought you're in the minority, and it's you with bad taste, and not the millions who bought Oblivion?

I appreciate the doom and gloom surrounding Fallout 3. It's a crazy, precious franchise with a vocal fanbase that sees the past games with rose-tinted glasses. I just hope they maintain the humour and style that made the original games so enjoyable.

 

[shiznit]

That's a great example of selling your opinion as fact. Have you ever thought you're in the minority, and it's you with bad taste, and not the millions who bought Oblivion?

I appreciate the doom and gloom surrounding Fallout 3. It's a crazy, precious franchise with a vocal fanbase that sees the past games with rose-tinted glasses. I just hope they maintain the humour and style that made the original games so enjoyable.

I could have worded it better, but how did you get the idea I was trying to sell it as fact? Of course it's opinion, and it was meant in comparison to the top of the line rpgs I mentioned later, such as Fallout, Planescape, and KOTOR which are all vastly superior to Oblivion imo.

I don't care if I am in the minority, 7 million people bough Halo 3 but it doesn't make it a good game. Buying into marketing hype != good taste, and since when has popularity become a measure of quality? Have you considered that Oblivion's success had something to do with the utter lack of any decent RPGs on 360 at the time (and still today for that matter).

I also never said that Fallout 3 will be a bad game, I just hope it's not the same generic Elder Scrolls formula only set in the Fallout universe.

 

[PARANOiA]

I could have worded it better, but how did you get the idea I was trying to sell it as fact? Of course it's opinion, and it was meant in comparison to the top of the line rpgs I mentioned later, such as Fallout, Planescape, and KOTOR which are all vastly superior to Oblivion imo.

I don't care if I am in the minority, 7 million people bough Halo 3 but it doesn't make it a good game. Buying into marketing hype != good taste, and since when has popularity become a measure of quality? Have you considered that Oblivion's success had something to do with the utter lack of any decent RPGs on 360 at the time (and still today for that matter).

I also never said that Fallout 3 will be a bad game, I just hope it's not the same generic Elder Scrolls formula only set in the Fallout universe.

Your wording was poor, and that's how it was interpreted. I can't think of a way I could have interpreted it to mean your personal taste.

I think your main fault is that you see Oblivion and Planescape in the same genre. That's like tacking in DMC4 and SS2 into the same boat because they all have stats. They're entirely different games, and shouldn't be treated as if they should all be trying to "beat" some other game that tries to give players something different entirely. Did Oblivion try and be Fallout? Of course not. But it did do what it set out to do extremely well.

And as for Oblivion only selling because it was (and "is", which is false, too) the only good RPG available on the 360, why did it sell gangbusters on PC? I guess the PC has no good RPG's to play, either, right?

 

[shiznit]

Well I just assume when someone speaks about subjective things like gameplay not being fun it has to be opinion, I wasn't quiting numbers or stating any hard facts. But nevermind, that's what happens when you assume, lesson learned.

I also never said that the ONLY reason why Oblivion did well on 360 was the lack of other good PRGs but that it "had somemething to do with it", meaning it contributed. Can you name any other decent 360 RPGs when Oblivion came out or even overall? The PC RPG landscape wasn't that hot either at the time, KOTOR2 came out over a year earlier and Dungenon Siege 2 and Bard's Tale were terrible. Titan Quest was good after a few patches but it came out a few months after Oblivion. So I definitely think the lack of good alternatives had an impact on sales.

I really tried to like Oblivion, but every time played it I got bored within 30 minutes. I realize many people like it, and while I don't know the exact PC sales numbers most people say it did very well, but I just don't feel like installing 100 mods just to make the gameplay interesting. The consolitis in the UI and skill system doesn't help either, the huge fonts and menus and terrible inventory system just drove me crazy and I quit.

If you can come up with a list of mods that will actually make the game fun to play within 30min-1hr I would be glad to give it another shot, right now its just sitting on my shelf.

I'm not one the Fallout purists who want turn-based combat and isometric view, but I really hope this game will be closer in gameplay to the originals vs Oblivion. SPECIAL is in and VATS is apparently based on AP like the first two games, so I am optimistic as long as the gameplay does not turn out to be generic like Oblivion.

 

[betan]

I'm one of those who really don't understand Bethesda buying the Fallout IP.
They need to reintroduce the world anyway. It is almost impossible to make Fallout fans happy (which aren't many to begin with), and there is the danger of pissing off TES fans.
A new IP would have been much better.

 

[Freak'n Big Panda]

There's some potential here though. Although F3 may not be faithful to the originals I have no doubt it'll be a good game, bethesda never disappoints in that regard.

I like Oblivion! I certainly don't hate it!
The only thing that bugs me is the leved enemies...

yeah +1 for this. I was really really annoyed at first that bethesda decided to dumb down morrowind to make it more appealing to masses with level/loot scaling and the inability to kill main quest characters and whatnot but if you just take it for what it is it's still a very well made game. I'm just crossing my fingers that the next installment in the elder scrolls series will target the more hardcore audience. And in all honesty obliv still requires an extremely hardcore gamer to actually play it to it's entirety. Most people I know just played for about 3-4 hours got a horse, killed some people then stopped. It's not like the game wouldn't have sold just as well if they had not scaled the levels and loot and allowed a little more freedom. Dumb decision IMO, just took away from an amazing game.

 

[Tap In]

I think it looks awesome and will give them the benefit of the doubt of learning some lessons from Oblivion