Is the X86 architecture a good option for Next-Gen handhelds? (Microsoft Xboy?)

Farid

Artist formely known as Vysez
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Quick recap on the latest energy friendly X86 embedded device CPU range from Intel:

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=46999

  • Intel plans on releasing a new "ultra mobile" X86 platform. (Think internet tablets, PocketPC and eventually cellphones with Moorestown.)
  • The first generation (2008), Menlow, will feature a small in-order CPU, Silverthorne, and will have a chipset, Poulsbo, featuring the memory controller and, the relevant part for this forum, a GPU.
  • The next-gen (2009), Moorestown (video and marketing blab), will have the CPU, GPU and the memory controller on the same die, Lincroft, and its chipset, Langwell, will only handle I/O.
  • Menlow and Moorestown should both be 45nm product.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=47097

As previously reported by DailyTech, Diamondville-based Atom processor will fit within a 4W (single core) to 8W (dual core) TDP envelope. The single core, Diamondville-based Atom 230 will launch at 1.6GHz and will feature a 533MHz FSB and 512k of L2 cache. TDP for the Atom 230 is listed at 4W.

Silverthorne-based Atom processors heading for MIDs will have a TDP ranging from 0.6W to 2.5W and will top out at 1.8GHz. Sources inside Intel hint that the 0.6W version of the processor reaches just over 500 MHz.

[...]

Intel says that a single Atom processor measures just 25mm2 and contains over 47 million transistors. According to Intel, 11 Atom processors would fit on a penny and it's built on Intel's high-k 45nm manufacturing process.

For information's sake, I'll also mention Via's Isaiah even though I don't see it fitting into the required TDP/energy requirement for a mainstream console handheld.


So, here's the idea and some argumentation:

The + :
  1. Leverages X86 knowledge: there's a million books, usenet discussions, groups, university (or other) courses, etc on the architecture. Most programmers out there have experience with this ISA.
  2. Use existing tools: You can rely on powerful compilers and debuggers from day 1. In fact if you use an Intel solution, like this thread implies in its content, you'll land yourself the ability to use what many consider the best X86 compilers (optimizing for Intel's architecture) out there.
  3. Access to many existing libraries and code sample: back to point one. X86 is old and so much entrenched as the defacto standard that it's not hard to understand why you can get your hand on so much code available for it.
  4. Code re-usability: this point is similar in nature to the precedent, but it's worth noting. Developers could port down their PC engines and middleware easily. Just like they could port their old tech almost as is (depending on how portable and reliant on certain OS/API calls the code is, of course).

The - :
  1. Price/cost: this is Intel we're talking about and thus, you'd have to pass by them to buy the silicon at the price the company judge fit. We'd also have to consider the fact that it might not give you the best perf-dollar results in the embedded CPU market. Impossible to shop around for the cheapest foundry, Intel would produce it all. Which take use to this point's immediate corollary.
  2. CPU's IP is not yours (In Intel's case): obviously, history shown that Intel is not willing, nor especially eager to license, let alone sell, their IPs or a particular implementation of their IPs. Which might tie you to Intel's goodwill more than what a game manufacturer might want to (see MS' issues with Intel/Nvidia in the Xbox days).
  3. Technical feasibility: to take an example that will speak to the B3D folks: remember when IBM told Kutaragi that his initial preformance goal for the C:BE were unrealistic? Well, it's the same story here. It's easy to draw conjectures and speculate based on a limited base of information gathered from initial reports (A.K.A. dream big). But we can't expect these conjectures to fall in line with the realities of the final products (A.K.A. reality hates you and your dreams, bub!). In other words, the technology might not be so great for an handheld console.

My take on the subject:

Personally, I wouldn't expect the DS and PSP successors to use a X86 CPU from Intel, if anything, it would the platforms succeeding to these that could potentially be good candidates to use the technology. New comers, on the other hand , would be a very realistic guess in the foreseable future. I'm thinking about companies manly going for a niche market, relying mainly on homebrew to create consumer interest, like the Tapware or GP32 handhelds did in the past. These X86 handheld would have the advantage of being able to run X86 Windows/Linux and thus their games as well. It wouldn't mean playing Crysis on the go, of course, but it could let people play a ton of their old and/or simplier games.

It could also be a good business opportunity to publishers, since they could support such a platform at a very low cost: They'd just allow their portfolio of old games to be sold on the platform manufacturer's online marketplace, à la Gametap or Steam.

Now, another possibility would be Microsoft. Many time we have speculated about a handheld MS platform, and until now, it never made a lot of sense (then again, launching Zune didn't make a lot of sense to many, and that includes me.
To the MS folks on B3D who work(ed) on the project, note that I'm not criticising Zune. Just that as a corporate move, it surprised me from MS. So, you can peacefully put down the pitchforks and the release the Shift button and/or remove Capslock :p
)

It now makes for MS because it opens two potential markets to the company. It can either create a Windows Mobile Xbox OS plus a set of requirements (layout, number of buttons, etc) and rely on IHVs to create, update and sell the hardware. MS would pocket (intended) the licensing costs, promote its Xbox brand, but also push its own online marketplace from where games (and other content) would be sold. The second possibility would be to treat the product like the two other major players do. Release the console, and handle it (intended) entirely from specs to design. In which case, it would also hold some positive points for MS. Namely, these positive points would be the ones I listed above. The Redmond folks have the OS, they have the tools and thus the project cost for them, on that end would be pretty much reasonable. They also have the Xbox platform, with its X86 CPU, and thus, MS and their publisher partners, could have access to content to port easily.

It would be a much more controlled bet, if they went down the first speculated path. I think that MS, of all the companies, knows that it's better to own the platform than it is to actually produce it in the material sense of the term. And that would allow it to expand its reach in the digital distribution market more rapidly by also having the control of an online marketplace used by many handheld devices.
 
Farid said:
Leverages X86 knowledge: there's a million books, usenet discussions, groups, university (or other) courses, etc on the architecture. Most programmers out there have experience with this ISA.
I'd say this is largely irellevant.
The x86 knowledge out there is based on assumptions from desktop CPUs. These cores don't sound anything like that(in-order and other simplications...). Just knowing the instructions is by far the least important issue to optimizing for a given CPU.
This extends to compiler issue as well - because this will clearly not run the same code well as desktop x86s. But granted, I'm sure Intel will get compilers up to speed quickly.

That said, it's not strictly to the topic, but I have to wonder if handheld gaming device could ever be marketed on spec anymore. It never really worked before, and PSP fell on its face with attempting that as well - it wasn't until sw and other functionality became the draw that its appeal started to increase.
 
I'm really not sure on the whole xboy thing. I'd see 'games for windows mobile' as being more likely - with hardware certification. XNA would be a natural starting point here given it's up and running on the zune (which is clearly a testbed for such a system - who would seriously commercially target a platform with such limited global reach?*)

In fact XNA would be closer to the 'live anywhere' promise than anything else microsoft have shown off. At least so far.

With a managed backend, the processor doesn't really matter. Provided it meets a minimum spec (hence certification) It need not matter if it were atom, xscale or the like.

Given the .net compact framework (which XNA is a superset) has been on windows mobile for freaking ages, it all becomes rather logical. .Net and DirectX are already on the platform.. Someone at Microsoft simply needs to tie them together.

*ditto farid :mrgreen:

[edit]
On a side note, I just happen to be listening to a song called 'derailment'. How fitting. :yes:
 
Wasn't the Atom compared to being about equal to a 1.2 GHz Pentium 3? I'd say that's pretty poor in terms of performance, even for a handheld, we've come a far way from that. I'm honestly a lot more excited for Via's Isaiah, plus it would be cool to have a third true competitor for x86 processors in the market, oh and Crysis has been run on Isaiah so you know it's got power :D I guess Isaiah's only issue is it's thermal envelope.........which limits it to ultra mobile laptops at the smallest, but not small handheld devices. Hopefully Via can get the 45 nm dual core version out the door soon. I just really want to see Via take some of Intel's market and I think Isaiah is Via's chance to really gain some market. It's not top of the line, but it's still got some kick, and it's extremely efficient which is perfect for the laptop segment.
 
Wasn't the Atom compared to being about equal to a 1.2 GHz Pentium 3? I'd say that's pretty poor in terms of performance, even for a handheld, we've come a far way from that.

We have? Seriously, please introduce me to this powerful handheld and tell me how I can get one!
 
We have? Seriously, please introduce me to this powerful handheld and tell me how I can get one!

In terms of tech we have. The PSP's tech is arguably half of that capability, and the PSP is 3+ year old technology. I think Intel can do waaaaaaay better than that.
 
In terms of tech we have. The PSP's tech is arguably half of that capability, and the PSP is 3+ year old technology. I think Intel can do waaaaaaay better than that.

The 333 MHz (in most games 222 MHz) MIPS CPU in the PSP is a far cry from half a 1.2 GHz Pentium 3.
 
The x86 architecture has no real advantage for gaming handhelds IMO. You don't have any real code sharing benefit, and as Fafalada pointed out the other benefits are also pretty much negligible.

I'm really very pessimistic about the Atom architecture for handhelds overall; Moorestown is going to look really bad in every single way compared to 45nm Cortex-A9 alternatives in the same timeframe IMO.
 
A "Micro Cell" is on the road map for IBM... Combined with Nvidia's new portable GPU, I believe will be the PSP2 :)

Having a cell processor will also make it compatible with current Ps3 titles :) :) :)

Portable PS3 FTW!!!
 
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I can't see Intels new products being very attractive for handheld gaming.

With all due respect to Farid, his plusses and minuses seem very Wintel PC-centric. During 2006, 2.45 BILLION ARM-core devices were shipped, and while I haven't seen the numbers for 2007 yet, they should be higher.
Comparatively, Intel really has nothing to bring to the table in terms of existing assets in the embedded market. Those plusses are actually significant minuses in these markets. Those billions of devices don't program themselves, there are huge numbers of people working on them in various different application areas.

The new Intel chips (even the projected ones) aren't really targeted at reasonably low-cost hand held devices, more towards ultra light PCs, or the ever elusive tablet market.

A typical hand held device is powered by a Li-Ion battery holding 2-4 Wh of energy. So if you want a decent runtime for your device, it needs to have a total power draw of 0.5W or so. That needs to cover everything: CPU, graphics processing, memory, wireless, display+backlight, + assorted extra. Even the lowest power (500MHz) Intel CPU that is even projected draws more than 0.5W on its own.

It's a safe assumption that the new Intel products target downscaling of PC-type devices (where the x86 ISA holds some value), rather than trying to muscle in on ARMs turf. ARMs products are simply better at those applications, and are entrenched, customiseable and cheap to boot.

So - no, the x86 architecture isn't really a good option for next generation handhelds.
You'd want decent performance within a 0.4-1W total envelope, and the lowest possible cost. Intel has nothing there, and even their projected products don't really fit the bill. Frankly I doubt Intel can or want to compete with x86 for that market, it is probably more interested in ensuring that the embedded cores don't inch their way upwards into Intels strongholds. Having too capable and cheap cores might even affect the ASPs for their own laptop cash cows negatively.
 
With all due respect to Farid, his plusses and minuses seem very Wintel PC-centric.
Indeed, they are.

I decided to create the thread with a slant toward the idea of having X86 in a handheld console. Not because I'm eagerly anticipating the day mainstream handheld consoles use the X86 ISA, but because I wanted to create a debate from the get-go.

It was obvious that a lot of people on the forums wouldn't be convinced by the idea at all. Thus, it was easier to spell out some of the advantages of this proposed solution and then wait for people to actually address some of these points and explain why they're not the killer-advantages one might have expected them to be. Without that, I would have expected a lot of answers that would have been along the lines of "yeah, X86 isn't all that, it's understood."

That type of anwsers might be true for a while, but as times change, situations might as well. And thus I wanted to see whether people were now looking forward an X86 in a mainstream handheld as something positive or not (from any point of view: developer, perf enthusiast, gamer, etc).

Personally, I'm looking forward to actual benchmarks of the Moorestown platform before writting it off from a perf enthusiast standpoint. Other than that, I'm not a fan of conservative architectures in any market and thus would always prefer to see an original architecture and/or ISA that might have severe shortcomings than a sure-shot conservative one. Simply because of the large scale experiment nature of the idea. It might not be fun to the programmers, if the platform is full of flaws, but it's definitely fascinating from a technology standpoint. Thus, it's fine by me. :p
 
At the recent Intel mobility meeting at CeBIT, Intel put up this slide:

http://www.umpcportal.com/gallery/d/8979-3/IMG_6189.JPG

It shows the largest expected market segment size for Menlow to be for 'Handheld Games'.

That slide is produced by marketing. :)
Seriously, look at the upcoming first generation devices. Not only are they ill-suited to the task, who would build that handheld gaming device? It would be big and expensive, and still have a short battery life. A turd.

Microsoft might, but what would they gain by throwing themselves into yet another niche market? Unlike consoles, there is no paranoia that their OS stronghold could be threatened by cheap Linux consoles, which back in the day helped motivate preempting Sony in the console space.

That slide is produced by someone who tries to think up low-power applications. The tablet PC is there, just as it has been for the last half decade or so, as are applications (portable navigation? portable video?) that currently uses SoCs that do the job just fine, and cost a few dollars. If anything, that slide is disturbing because it implies that Intel is a bit foggy on what they are producing and for whom, reinforcing the impression that they are trying to offer a product preemptively, hoping to stem an upwards migration of devices supported by another ISA and business model.
 
The 333 MHz (in most games 222 MHz) MIPS CPU in the PSP is a far cry from half a 1.2 GHz Pentium 3.

Are you sure? I think it could come close to a 500 MHz Pentium 3, it does have a floating point unit and a vector unit to boot as well. I'm not sure what they're performance is in comparison to the Emotion Engine, but the Emotion Engine was claimed to be (as a whole mind you, and remember, much of it was dedicated to geometry) twice as powerful as a Pentium 733 MHz (Sony's Claim). Still I'd expect much more than equal to a 1.2 GHz Pentium 3. Of course we don't know how the PSP's and PS2's FPUs and VUs compare, however developers have had nothing but good things to say about the PSP compared to it's PS2 brethren.
 
I think that MS's purchase of Danger is a good indicator of their intentions. Branding strategy is not clear but could be xbox with xbl as the e-commerce engine.
 
I think that MS's purchase of Danger is a good indicator of their intentions. Branding strategy is not clear but could be xbox with xbl as the e-commerce engine.

The Danger rumours point more to an iPhone competitor than anything else. There is no way in hell a Silverthorn will power a phone. While, just as with the iPhone, games will likely be part of the package for a new phone, that is not the same as a device made for handheld gaming.

Silverthorne/Atom is a crummy fit for either for the foreseeable future. In the unforeseeable future, anything may happen, of course. :)
This article points to more likely destinations for the chip(s).
The low-cost desktops are part of Intel's plan to push Atom chips into new product categories, which also include low-cost notebooks and "ultramobile" devices. The company is putting single-core Diamondville chips in notebooks priced between US$250 to $300 and Silverthorne chips in ultramobile PCs, which Intel calls mobile Internet devices (MIDs).
http://www.linuxworld.com.au/index.php?id=1200310229&rid=-50

Also, in the roadmaps I've seen going through 2009, Intel presents figures derived from an assumed 16Wh battery, some 5 times larger than the larger cell-phone batteries. The marketing slide referenced above is the only one that mentions smart phones at all.
If Intel failed to breach into that market with their DEC derived XScale/StrongARM processors, I can't really see x86 having a chance.
 
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Are you sure? I think it could come close to a 500 MHz Pentium 3, it does have a floating point unit and a vector unit to boot as well.

ALLEGREX (PSP main CPU) in comparison to x86 would be roughly comparable to a P54c type Pentium running along at 300MHz. Now the VFPU does indeed add a whole level of performance that IMO bitchslaps a PIII 600, but that's only for vector ops.

Arun said:
The x86 architecture has no real advantage for gaming handhelds IMO. You don't have any real code sharing benefit, and as Fafalada pointed out the other benefits are also pretty much negligible.

Code density... It's still better even when you're strictly compiling ARM in thumb and don't have to deal with switching between thumb and full ARM instructions. The only comparable ISAs in terms of code density were M86k/Coldfire (which IMO is worlds better than x86 as an ISA goes) and personal favorites of mine, SuperH, and MCORE.
 
ALLEGREX (PSP main CPU) in comparison to x86 would be roughly comparable to a P54c type Pentium running along at 300MHz. Now the VFPU does indeed add a whole level of performance that IMO bitchslaps a PIII 600, but that's only for vector ops.



Code density... It's still better even when you're strictly compiling ARM in thumb and don't have to deal with switching between thumb and full ARM instructions. The only comparable ISAs in terms of code density were M86k/Coldfire (which IMO is worlds better than x86 as an ISA goes) and personal favorites of mine, SuperH, and MCORE.

You seem to know a great deal about the ALLEGREX then, so I'll ask you some things about the PSP. Like the PS2, does the machine use it's main engine for both normal CPU functions and geometry with a seperate 2D graphics system? One other question pertains to the PSP having from what I've heard 2 GPUs. Is one GPU for actual games while the other is for media or what? No where I've seen clarifies these things for me. My final question is if the PSP can do shaders efficiently to use them in games. Ridge Racer which came out when the handheld did, had some nice reflections, so I wonder about bumpmaps and normal maps being possible on some games.
 
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