RUMOR: Xbox 360 20GB SKU to be replaced by 60GB SKU

[JPT]

In Norway, after a trial that went to the supreme court, mobile phones are expected to live for 5 years and that the consumer should get free repairs, new product or their money back in case of factory defects.

Norwegian article (in norwegian) about it.

The vendors, specifically Nokia, argued it was 1 year, but lost out.
The law basically says when a product has life expectancy of 5 years or more the warranty is required for 5 years. Whether games consoles fit there now I am not sure, but if a mobile phone dies I am quite sure that it does.

 

[Zassk]

I think some of you are just being argumentative. You don't think consumer expectations regarding electronics reliability have changed in the past 10 years. I think you're totally out of touch, but you can beat me over the head with my lack of hard evidence.

Rancid and Shifty are claiming that consumers equate game consoles with long-lived home theater electronics. But to most people, console == Playstation, a cheap toy that typically lasted a few years depending on abuse. It doesn't matter what the 360's actual price tag is, what matters is perception. That is what determines the public response to RROD.

You're letting the "cadillac" nature of the PS3 cloud your perception of what a console is. Most console owners don't have a PS3 that cost more than their HTIB. Most console owners have a 360 or Wii, and their expectation of reliability comes from the PS2.

Rancid, can you point to some evidence that the reaction to the 3 year warranty announcement was unfavorable? The 360's worst sales months were immediately prior to the announcement. Sales rose immediately following the announcement - despite a PS3 price cut the same month. This is not an opinion, it is fact. Since you disagree with my interpretation of this fact, perhaps you will share your own interpretation with us.

 

[dobwal]

1. If you mean Sony's laptop batteries, that was a batch that people weren't happy with and Sony replaced. No-one was content for them to go boom

2) Anything dependent on battery tech has a short life because because tech isn't hot. Laptop's going back to their first battery powered beginnings needed the battery replaced after a short time because the longevity of NiCads was pants in that use, but there was no better alternative. Now we have lithiums, which are a step up but still not great. These devices are limited by technology. If a portable stops working because the battery dies, even using the best technology possible in batteries it'll happen, the owner is faced with either replacing the battery, normally at considerable cost - they aren't cheap, up moving on to the new, improved device. There's no similarity in consoles. There's no technology in them that is expected to fail in 18 months of use because engineers don't have available any better solution. If they put in a CPU that melts after 18 months, it's not because human technology is the limitation, but that they chose a cheap system. Quite different to battery tech, where there is no alternative to batteries with limited lifespans.
Which is exactly what I was saying earlier! People upgrade some devices like phones rapidly because after 2 years of ownership, a far better model is available. This isn't the case with large CE goods. A mobile phone maker knows no-one is going to keep their mobile for more than 2 years (not true, but let's stick to this generalization) so doesn't need to sweat long-term device longevity. If it dies in 2 years, or 18 months, the owner was going to chuck it away anyway so it doesn't matter, they don't care. You don't buy a brand new console every two years that surpasses your old console though. When you buy a console now, you don't do so thinking in 2 years you'll buy a different brand new console. There is not that expectation where there is with the mobiles. Thus the expected longevity, IMO, is for the machine to last until the owner moves on to the next new thing.

I doubt you would find many long time gamers who would be totally surprised by their console dying inside two years. In fact I believe that many would be pleasantly amused that their console especially those bought at the beginning of a generation would past the 5 year mark.

Overall, CE products themselves (outside of TVs) are easily the most often replaced product due to failure in your home other than light bulbs. I doubt anyone has confidence in CE products to last a long time. Having a working CE product over 7-10years old is a badge of honor for some.

 

[Zaphod]

In Norway, after a trial that went to the supreme court

<offtopic>
After that sentence, everything in your post was wrong.

First of all you shouldn't mix up warranties (which are given by the manufacturer or a third party) with rights granted by consumer protection law. The former can cover whatever the manufacturer likes for as long as they like and is an implicit agreement between the supplier and the consumer (although it has to exceed/cover different aspects than those required by law, lest it can't be advertised as a warranty.) The latter are protection against faults that were inherit to the product at the time the customer took legal possession of it (basically flat out manufacturing/design defects and 'lemons' that fall on the near side of the MTBF bell curve).

Secondly, no ruling says a phone should last 5 years. The court accepted the premise (as given by the defendants - a trade organization for electronics merchants and manufacturers) that a mobile phone will (if used responsibly) last 3-4 years, but ruled with the plaintiff (an insurance company) that 3-4 years were significantly longer than two years (the legal requirement for the protection to be extended from 2->5 years). The protection is also limited by what the consumer can reasonably expect in terms of durability for such a product, a limit the court set at the aforementioned lifespan. (A banana, for example, is also protected for two years in the sense that you could theoretically complain for that long, but you wouldn't win because you can't reasonably expect it to last that long.) Price, ruggedness, or whatever might come into play in individual cases to determine where on that spectrum an individual model lies.

Also, the 3-4 year guideline is also not universal. Every manufacturer is free to sell phones that will last for shorter periods of time as long as the consumer is explicitly informed of this fact (which would modify their legally protected expectations). Naturally, though, no manufacturer yet has been keen to be the one to sell their wares as "those that doesn't last as long as 'normal' phones", so they'll rather eat the (negligible?) cost of repairing/replacing phones that fail during their third year (the vast majority are replaced by then).
</offtopic>

 

[Grolik]

er... ahem.
Yesterday I went on several game or entertainment shops, and I could see few Premium bundles ... but I read on the internet that it is the €199 Arcade bundle that is the hardest to find.
I didn't ask, I now think I should have, but do you think that the fact of seeing much more Elite and Arcade bundles in stores means that their stocks are going to change with a new bundle?
Or are just the other bundles more eye-catchy?

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

why . Why is it absurd to compare a product that the seller sells at a loss and makes it up through product plans and future charges where they sell insurance monthly incase the phone breaks more than 60 days after purchase to a product that the seller sells at a loss and makes it up through future purchases and where they sell insurance plans (a flat fee) to insure it.

What on Earth are you talking about? Cell phone manufacturers do NOT sell cell phones at a loss. They sell cell phones for a profit. That profit is gained either through direct sales at RETAIL price, or through kickbacks from the service provider.

Cell phones last for 2 to 3 years and its replaced. There are very few people i know that have phones that last longer than that , they physicly crap out and its excepted .

That's just simply factually incorrect. The cell phone I purchased in 1993 still works perfectly fine to this day. The only problem is that most networks have switched from analog to digital so the phone is no longer supported by the service providers. The phone still works fine.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

Rancid and Shifty are claiming that consumers equate game consoles with long-lived home theater electronics. But to most people, console == Playstation, a cheap toy that typically lasted a few years depending on abuse.

WHAT?

The playstation is a cheap toy that lasts a few years? Now, personally, I had significant problems with my PS2's and had to buy three of them and was damn pissed off that I had to. Compare that to my Sega Genesis that still works, my SuperNES that still works, my PS1 that still works, and I'm ANGRY at Sony for making a piece of crap product. I don't EXPECT that failure rate.

Hell, my Atari 2600 STILL WORKS. I've got TWO PS2's that don't.

You're letting the "cadillac" nature of the PS3 cloud your perception of what a console is.

No, I don't have a PS3, don't believe their marketing and the longevity of my three PS2's have shown me there's no reason to spend more than $199 on any Sony console.

Rancid, can you point to some evidence that the reaction to the 3 year warranty announcement was unfavorable?

YEAH! Great tactic! Did you take debate in high school? Let's move the goal posts!

The fact that is being debated isn't the effect of the extended warranty. The fact that is being debated is the size of the effect of the failure rate.

If you can't see how those are two completely different things, then there's really no discussion to be had.

 

[RancidLunchmeat]

I doubt you would find many long time gamers who would be totally surprised by their console dying inside two years.

In fact I believe that many would be pleasantly amused that their console especially those bought at the beginning of a generation would past the 5 year mark.

How old are you?

My Atari 2600 still works to this day.

My Atari 7800 still works to this day.

My NES still works to this day.

My SNES still works to this day.

My Sega Genesis still works to this day.

My PS1 still works to this day.

My Xbox still works to this day.

I don't know ANY 'long time gamer' that has purchased gaming consoles that aren't expected to last more than 2 years. Most are expected, AND DO, work for 5-10-15-20 years!

 

[quest55720]

How old are you?

My Atari 2600 still works to this day.

My Atari 7800 still works to this day.

My NES still works to this day.

My SNES still works to this day.

My Sega Genesis still works to this day.

My PS1 still works to this day.

My Xbox still works to this day.

I don't know ANY 'long time gamer' that has purchased gaming consoles that aren't expected to last more than 2 years. Most are expected, AND DO, work for 5-10-15-20 years!

I agree there are good and poorly made systems. Not every system can be a SNES,gamecube, genesis or N64. I went through 3 PS1s because of the laser assembly issue. I had 2 NES thanks to the horrible cartrige slot design. I went through 2 PS2s and dreamcasts. My gamecube and xbox have been tanks so far. My 360 I bought 2 years ago is still chugging along. Some of it is just luck of the draw. I am just thankfull the press is finally calling out these companys and forcing them to step up and help the customer like the 3 year warrenty on the 360. It is nice sony has finally got it right with the PS3 I hope they will serve me well once my rebate check shows up. Yes I still have an atari 2600 that works just fine but the joysticks on the other hand were junk.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

To be fair, though we're going really OT now, the older tech had far less to go wrong. The chips aren't running are crazy temperatures trying to melt themselves, stressing out all the componentry. We can't expect that sort of reliability from fast hardware. Perhaps slower hardware on modern processes would result in great reliability - a PS2 at 65nm might last for 20 years? Not with an optical drive, though. Mechanical failure will end those, which is why the joysticks died. Often! A DS might work for ages, if the screen can last out.

As I say, I think the consumer perception for longevity is pretty much 'I expect it to last until I move onto the next thing.' If it breaks when you're still using it and want to use it, you'll be annoyed. If it breaks when you've lost interest, you won't much care.

 

[rekator]

As I say, I think the consumer perception for longevity is pretty much 'I expect it to last until I move onto the next thing.' If it breaks when you're still using it and want to use it, you'll be annoyed. If it breaks when you've lost interest, you won't much care.

Good resume.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

The vendors, specifically Nokia, argued it was 1 year, but lost out.
The law basically says when a product has life expectancy of 5 years or more the warranty is required for 5 years. Whether games consoles fit there now I am not sure, but if a mobile phone dies I am quite sure that it does.

Game consoles are considered computers, that means 5 year warranty by law in norway. Consumer laws here also say that if the item you purchased has to be replaced 3 times you are entitled to your money back, as long as you didnt brake it on perpus.

 

[rekator]

Game consoles are considered computers, that means 5 year warranty by law in norway. Consumer laws here also say that if the item you purchased has to be replaced 3 times you are entitled to your money back, as long as you didnt brake it on perpus.

Five years warranty for computers and consoles…
Are prices of these products is more high than others Europeans countries?

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yes! That's a big thing - prices over there are high and there's 25% sales tax. So you get what your pay for. Basically the 5 warranty comes as standard, and you pay for it

 

[assen]

Yes! That's a big thing - prices over there are high and there's 25% sales tax. So you get what your pay for. Basically the 5 warranty comes as standard, and you pay for it

Wow, choice is wonderful, especially when the government makes it for you... NOT. Amazing cavemen socialism for an oil-rich country.

 

[Zaphod]

<offtopic>
I'd point out that there is no mandated 5 year warranty in Norway, and that (excluding VAT) the prices of imported products like electronics are generally very low to the point where there's no point of importing them yourself. The Norwegian consumer protection laws go aways beyond the EU-mandated minimums, but the differences aren't as extreme as some might make them out to be.

I'd also point out the fact that direct $ aren't always valid either. In particular with the historically low US$ coinciding with a historically strong NOK which have given some "socialist" companies like MS and the lovely neighborhood Sony distributor (SF) an opportunity to increase margins without raising prices.

Personally, this caveman, prefers that buying stuff isn't turned into some crapshoot where if your two years and two months old computer/tv/dishwasher/whatever dies due to an inherit flaw that was present at the time of purchase (the Xbox 360 RROD would be a good example); companies can't just shrug and say "tough luck, buy a new one".
</offtopic>

 

[Shifty Geezer]

This is getting too political. Socialism versus capitalism and mandated consumer rights versus no consumer rights aren't really topics for this forum. And it's all veered way off topic!

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Five years warranty for computers and consoles…
Are prices of these products is more high than others Europeans countries?

prices are higher but this is due to a 25% tax, nothing else, generally electronics are generally priced low if you take away the tax. Norways BNP is $80,000 per capita so it works out fine.

 

[hey69]

filthy rich bastards

 

[AzBat]

To get somewhat back on topic. DigiTimes is reporting that Lite-On will be supplying Blu-ray ROM drives for "the next-generation Xbox 360 game consoles." These shipments to Microsoft will start in the second half of 2008. They also note that the new console will change from a 210-watt power supply to a 170-watt power supply. As always, take this with a pinch of salt.

Source: DigiTimes

Tommy McClain