Seems like PS2 BC will be gone forever soon

[Shifty Geezer]

Both were flaky solutions though. XB360 never had a real BC solution nor a design for BC. PS3 did have, but the software-only has proven too hard, and the hardware solution too costly. BC isn't really viable unless you have cause for legacy hardware - PS2 slapped the tricky parts of PS1 in the hardware. Wii is based on a GC. PS3 had a PS2, or parts of a PS2. Again with the PC, which is legacy all the way, old games don't run. That's mirrored in XB360 which in theory is a DX box running the same libraries as XB, but the software doesn't port over nicely with a recompile.

If the XB360 solution is considered suitable BC, then the future of BC will be download ports. But that's not what you're after, and old discs in new hardware was just a blip in consoling history.

 

[vazel]

I know how bc was done on the new consoles. It doesn't change the fact that they do exist. Sony did it twice. They always managed to do it somehow wether through hardware, a combination of hardware and software, or only software. But their precarious situation regarding pricing now means precedent will be set of price over bc.

Again with the PC, which is legacy all the way, old games don't run.

The vast majority do however. I'm still playing games from the DOS and Win95 days. Red Baron 3D is a fave of mine. You can even play games from the Commodore 64 and non-PC devices through emulation! Most of the old pre-Playstation 2 era devices are perfectly emulated, NES emulators even have that flickering the original NES had.

 

[fallguy]

There has been the ability to run PS2 games on the PS3 for over a year now. If you havent gotten one yet and want PS2 BC, then dont blame anyone else, but yourself.

 

[vazel]

There has been the ability to run PS2 games on the PS3 for over a year now. If you havent gotten one yet and want PS2 BC, then dont blame anyone else, but yourself.

I'm worried about the precedent this move will set on future consoles. But maybe I'm getting too fussed up. It's looking like they aren't even giving us a premium model with bc anymore. Maybe Carl B is right and they are just moving towards a pure software emulation.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

But there was no precedent! You can't count one and a bit generations of BC as a standard. Sony didn't really do it twice. They tried to make an economical BC implementation in PS3 but had to give up. They've done it once and a 'good try'. The PC emulation you talk of is for generations old hardware, which isn't a problem. It's near hardware that's hard to emulate. After a long period, the hardware become so much faster than the original system you're emulating that it can handle it. For recent hardware, unless there are hardware similarities you can't generally do it in software. PS4 emulating PS2 is quite possible, just as PS3 emulates PS1 in software. You may even get PS4 supporting PS3 games if the hardware is similar Cell + nVidia GPU with suitable hardware, so you can't count it out yet.

But there's no precedent here either way. BC was a nice thing, but not ever common enough to be a standard feature you could expect to be present. It'll appear in the consoles on an economic consideration of benefit versus cost. Perhaps future systems will go with the PS3 route, with costly launch hardware including BC when it's most needed to prop up the weak library with last-gen system titles. Or perhaps future hardware will have enough similarities for software to be emulated effectively. Whatever happens, you can't look at any point in console history and see a likely future, either before BC as indicative of BC never being included again, nor after BC (AD? ) as indicative of BC being a future feature.

 

[Zassk]

What is happening to console gaming! I remember when bc was a big thing people cared about.

What's happening is that Sony is still selling large volumes of the old console at a generous profit. This is unprecedented as far as console history goes. Why would they want to include a "free" PS2 inside every PS3? You can get PS3+BC for $529, you just have to buy a PS2 to get it!

It's a surprising turn of events that MS now has better BC than Sony (500/800 titles now, I think? Plus reselling classic titles as downloads, a strategy which apparently Sony has abandoned for this generation.)

 

[vazel]

But there was no precedent! You can't count one and a bit generations of BC as a standard. Sony didn't really do it twice. They tried to make an economical BC implementation in PS3 but had to give up. They've done it once and a 'good try'.

There is precedent. It was done on four consoles and on three handhelds(GBA, DS, and PSP, although I'm not sure if PSX emulation on the PSP is official, if it's not official I guess that technically makes it two handhelds). That is the precedent.

The PC emulation you talk of is for generations old hardware, which isn't a problem. It's near hardware that's hard to emulate. After a long period, the hardware become so much faster than the original system you're emulating that it can handle it. For recent hardware, unless there are hardware similarities you can't generally do it in software. PS4 emulating PS2 is quite possible, just as PS3 emulates PS1 in software. You may even get PS4 supporting PS3 games if the hardware is similar Cell + nVidia GPU with suitable hardware, so you can't count it out yet.

You were the one talking about old games not working on the PC and I'm telling you I'm still playing PC games from DOS and Win95.

Yes I know the difficulty of emulating more complex hardware. Thanks for stating the obvious again. That is why I'm not counting on free emulators to emulate the newer consoles as well as they've done the older consoles. If anyone is going to be able to emulate the newer consoles in a good manner it's going to be the manufacturers themselves.

But there's no precedent here either way. BC was a nice thing, but not ever common enough to be a standard feature you could expect to be present. It'll appear in the consoles on an economic consideration of benefit versus cost. Perhaps future systems will go with the PS3 route, with costly launch hardware including BC when it's most needed to prop up the weak library with last-gen system titles. Or perhaps future hardware will have enough similarities for software to be emulated effectively. Whatever happens, you can't look at any point in console history and see a likely future, either before BC as indicative of BC never being included again, nor after BC (AD? ) as indicative of BC being a future feature.

BC is a big feature to gaming. And to just take it away from us now would really suck.

 

[valioso]

BC is a big feature to gaming. And to just take it away from us now would really suck.

BC was never a big feature in gaming until Sony made it so as a bullet point over their competition.

 

[vazel]

BC was never a big feature in gaming until Sony made it so as a bullet point over their competition.

It did used to be a big feature to hardcore gamers. PSX on the PS2 was big, everyone was excited for the Bleemcast, and the x360 early backwards compatiblity problems wouldn't have been as heavily criticized if it wasn't a big feature. I remember there was that scathing interview a Microsoft spokesman had with 1up over bc not favoring the bigger xbox titles. But now people don't value bc as much as they used to. Wether that's due to loyalty to whatever their favorite manufacture says or what I don't know... Or maybe I'm just talking to the wrong people here on B3D. I often get that feeling...

 

[Shifty Geezer]

There is precedent. It was done. That is the precedent.

The precedent before PS2 was no BC. How much baring did that have on BC in PS2...

You were the one talking about old games not working on the PC and I'm telling you I'm still playing PC games from DOS and Win95.

And I'm telling you I have old games that I cannot pop the disc into my PC and run. PC doesn't support full BC as you want (pop in an old game and it runs) and that's on the most legacy ridden platform out there bar Wii. If the hardware were to change significantly from the IBM x86 standard in the same way consoles deviate from generation to generation, many of those existing old games wouldn't run.

Yes I know the difficulty of emulating more complex hardware. Thanks for stating the obvious again.

Less of the attitude, thank you.

BC is a big feature to gaming. And to just take it away from us now would really suck.

I agree it's a nice feature, but I think a lot of people, probably more than not, would rather have cheaper next-gen hardware than full BC implementations.

 

[vazel]

The precedent before PS2 was no BC. How much baring did that have on BC in PS2...

But then bc did appear on the PS2! After which bc became a feature on other consoles and handhelds.That is the precedent!

And I'm telling you I have old games that I cannot pop the disc into my PC and run. PC doesn't support full BC as you want (pop in an old game and it runs) and that's on the most legacy ridden platform out there bar Wii. If the hardware were to change significantly from the IBM x86 standard in the same way consoles deviate from generation to generation, many of those existing old games wouldn't run.

I have hundreds of DOS and PC games and I'm telling you the vast majority work. A backward compatiblity where the vast majority of games still work is better than nothing. On top of that there is emulation for non-PC hardware.

I agree it's a nice feature, but I think a lot of people, probably more than not, would rather have cheaper next-gen hardware than full BC implementations.

Or how about a premium model for those that want to pay for bc like what was done this gen with the ps3 and x360. Sony chose not to continue this model but it's worked fine for the x360.

 

[rbushner]

BC was a nice thing, but not ever common enough to be a standard feature you could expect to be present.

Disagree, being that the PS2 was BC, the XB360 has partial BC, the Wii has BC, and the PS3 used to have BC, it sure as hell is an expected and wanted feature in current consoles.

AFAIR, X360 originally was going to have no BC, but there was such a massive outcry they changed course.

I sure hope Sony is working on software BC, because that is one of their greatest strengths, the PS2 library and userbase. Remove BC and that is one less reason for people (the ones that haven't gotten a Wii yet) to stick with the Playstation brand.

 

[valioso]

It did used to be a big feature to hardcore gamers. PSX on the PS2 was big, .

exactly, until Sony made it so. I don't remember any crying over the master system, nes, genesis and saturn not being BC

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Yes, that premium is an option and isn't ruled out by the drop of BC models in PS3. They may just decide (wrongly?) that those most interested in BC will be early adopters so keep it as a short term system. MS are pulling back BC developments last I heard. Seems that after launch, interest in BC wanes. Unless someone can present real evidence that BC is valued, it'll be hard to convince these companies to invest in it though.

I guess one bit of evidence in favour could be the 60 GB sales jumping when the 40 GB was released in the UK. That could just be because it was by far the better value package though. I guess a poll of BC users on this forum would give a little insight into hardcore interest in the feature.

 

[vazel]

exactly, until Sony made it so. I don't remember any crying over the master system, nes, genesis and saturn not being BC

No, it was a big feature with gamers. And again with the old consoles, back then people didn't even think of bc. Sony brought that into console gaming as a new thing. Like Nintendo bringing rumble into console gaming. Before Nintendo brought it up no one thought about what they were missing. Then Sony tried to ditch rumble this gen but now they're bringing it back because people now expect rumble in console gaming. Which gamer thought about motion controls before this gen? After Wii's success motion controls being standard from now on is a good possibility.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

I know what the situation was in the prehistoric era, I have been gaming since the NES....

That's not prehistoric.

My ColecoVision had b/c with the Atari 2600 if you bought the expansion box.

Bottom line is (as has been bandied about by others in this thread), B/C is a nice feature, but the percevied value of it to customers is a mixed bag. In the end, the console companies will have a tough time implementing it if the cost is significant....and you can't really blame them.

 

[Tap In]

...

AFAIR, X360 originally was going to have no BC, but there was such a massive outcry they changed course.

...

It may have appeared that way to an outsider but I'm pretty certain it was always on the 360 table.

It was announced to much fanfare, not because of an outcry but when it finally became certain that it could be accomplished on the machine.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

Well it seems the face of what a hardcore gamer is is changing. It used to be great games were always great games deserving of replay no matter how old. BC made doing this much more convenient so you don't have to clutter up your TV with old consoles. Now it seems people don't care to replay old games unless those old games appear on Xbox Live Arcade or Virtual Console.

I disagree with that. Even the most hardcore gamer couldnt care for the coolest atari 2600 game anymore. How much AAA psx/n64 games are still fun to play? with the exeption of a few, mostly because of nostalgic reasons and not because its so great, none. The only games that managed to stand the tooth of time are the games from the 16bit eara and that is because they are the best 2d games and their gfx dont look that outdated because of the 2d but even alot of games from that time arnt nearly as good as they used to be. I spend a million hours on donkey kong country when I was a kid, but when I bought it for the VC I completed it 8x% complete in 4 hours.

There are just very little old games you would want to replay on your new system, certainly after a year or 2. I dont really see why I want to spend more money for that, afterall I already have to old console and for those on or two games I might as well hook that up to a old tv somewhere (will probably look better than on your hdtv too).

But that is just my opinion.

 

[vazel]

Real hardcore gamers know great games are timeless and visuals don't matter enough to stop a hardcore gamer from enjoying the gameplay. Burning Rangers for example looks as blocky as a Youtube video yet the gameplay is still great and is still a unique style of gameplay that not many games have done anything similar after it. Nostalgia is a factor with everything and probably does influence people to look more favorably on some games but don't be too quick to write off everything anyone likes that is old as nostalgia.

Even the most hardcore gamer couldnt care for the coolest atari 2600 game anymore. How much AAA psx/n64 games are still fun to play?

There are just very little old games you would want to replay on your new system, certainly after a year or 2

Check all those threads on NeoGaf dedicated to playing old games like Earthbound and Parasite Eve and all the activity they get.

 

[-tkf-]

BC just isn´t worth it for neither Sony or Microsoft, or it would have been a much bigger issue for both.