Blu-Ray Disc Association sinks to new low with childish YouTube attack ads!

[Carl B]

Because Walmart had that sale (then BestBuy/Sears followed), Toshiba had nothing to do with it. Should we not count units sold on sale?

Saying Toshiba had nothing to do with it is like saying Disney had nothing to do with it when Amazon has the BD sales. If you honestly think Toshiba wasn't a key enabler in those sales, well, quite simply you are mistaken. And you can be sure that Best Buy and Sears wouldn't have followed suit if it was their margins that were being cut by $100 dollars on the players; Toshiba obviously green-lighted the move.

And to your question (I could do without the roll-eyes by the way) - of course we should count units sold on sale... but the consternation here seems to be about when BD movies go on sale that it's skewing, whereas when HD DVD players go on sale it's just... a sale. Either they're both "just sales," or they're both just "skewing," but personally I'm tired of pick-and-choose viewpoints where one is maligned and the other has a halo.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Saying Toshiba had nothing to do with it is like saying Disney had nothing to do with it when Amazon has the BD sales. If you honestly think Toshiba wasn't a key enabler in those sales, well, quite simply you are mistaken. And you can be sure that Best Buy and Sears wouldn't have followed suit if it was their margins that were being cut by $100 dollars on the players; Toshiba obviously green-lighted the move.

And to your question (I could do without the roll-eyes by the way) - of course we should count units sold on sale... but the consternation here seems to be about when BD movies go on sale that it's skewing, whereas when HD DVD players go on sale it's just... a sale. Either they're both "just sales," or they're both just "skewing," but personally I'm tired of pick-and-choose viewpoints where one is maligned and the other has a halo.

You have some evidence that Toshiba green lighted the move?

Toshiba was obviously selling the units cheap enough that Walmart et al could afford to discount the units to where they did, but that doesn't show that Toshiba had anything to do with the sale. Walmart often sells out various old stock products as loss leaders of their own accord.

 

[willardjuice]

If you honestly think Toshiba wasn't a key enabler in those sales, well, quite simply you are mistaken

I would love to see the proof of that. If it really was Toshiba's doing, why was Best Buy and Sears' late to the party (not to mention many retailers and Amazon didn't even show up)? Clearly Walmart was first out of the gate with this sale (and thus the original).

but the consternation here seems to be about when BD movies go on sale that it's skewing, whereas when HD DVD players go on sale it's just... a sale.

There's a difference between a sale and giving away for free.

 

[Zaphod]

Each camp uses the tactic that works best for it; Blu-ray motivates the PS3 ownerbase to start participating in the format war with cheap media

I'd say that the BOGO sales for Blu-ray aren't as much about motivating the PS3 base (nice side effect, though) in the short term as they are about perception. The future 'potential' installed base is more important than their current one, and the media sales advantage has been one of their primary vectors for hammering this message home.

I.e. instead of getting hit with 'HD DVD sales soars past Blu-ray with the release of Transformers' they got to play 'Blu-ray still the #1 choice with consumers' (with the implication that even the best of HD-DVD can't touch an average BR week).

Quite clever (not anything wrong with that, might work out), but not sustainable in the long run.

 

[Carl B]

You have some evidence that Toshiba green lighted the move?

Does anyone have evidence to the contrary? And of course they don't, just as no one would be expected to have evidence for anything that takes place in this nonsense PR battle.

But the chain of events that saw Sears and Best Buy so quickly follow Wal-Mart in my eyes clearly point to Toshiba green-lighting a chargeback on the price paid for the A2 by those retailers.

I would love to see the proof of that. If it really was Toshiba's doing, why was Best Buy and Sears' late to the party (not to mention many retailers and Amazon didn't even show up)? Clearly Walmart was first out of the gate with this sale (and thus the original).

I'll restate my asking for proof the contrary. Why do people waste time with 'prove it' posts? Obviously we're all stating our educated opinions; nothing more, nothing less. I feel good about my own, for what it's worth, and from my experience in the world of business the chain of events struck me as an obvious flag as to the above. But I'll say that I disagree doubly with your stance that Wal-Mart was the originator of the sale outside of Toshiba's collaboration; the advertising, the product promotion, the steepness of the cut and the volume build-up in the product beforehand... I think you're being a bit naive in your view that Toshiba was independent a role.

But it goes beyond that "super" sale on the hardware. Toshiba has been very aggressive on player pricing from day 1, and if you look at the history of their unit price-point introductions and the severe slide in just a year, you'll note that it's not just about that sale of recent, but the entire pattern of "get hardware sold." I don't have a problem with it, but I don't know why you won't even recognize it. I can say this also with high confidence: the HD-A2 costs Toshiba more than $100 to manufacture. Or, at least it did; it is of course EOL for some time now.

There's a difference between a sale and giving away for free.

What you insist as calling "giving away for free" in actuality is a 50% off sale, and it is reflected as such at the register. Your insistence on such absolute language is unfortunate.

 

[willardjuice]

More calls for proof of course... I'll restate my asking for proof the contrary.

You made the original claim so now back it up; I'm just asking for proof. But I'll take this weak argument as you don't have any.

 

[AlphaWolf]

But the chain of events that saw Sears and Best Buy so quickly follow Wal-Mart in my eyes clearly point to Toshiba green-lighting a chargeback on the price paid for the A2 by those retailers.

Or it just points to other retailers matching prices which they often do in any event even if they don't advertise it. There's certainly nothing 'clear' about it.

 

[DeathKnight]

There's a difference between a sale and giving away for free.

Bingo!

Getting player prices down and units available in quantity at low prices into stores for the holiday season has been Toshiba's plan and goal all along. On the other hand Sony and Co.'s non-stop BOGO sales have all been reactionary in order to keep up their pretentious disc "sales" lead in the face of growing HD DVD disc sales.

 

[Carl B]

Quite clever (not anything wrong with that, might work out), but not sustainable in the long run.

But does it even need to be sustainable in the long run? Who can doubt that if Transformers was also released on BD, that the BD sales would have trumped HD DVDs? The BD half-price sales have the psychological effect you stated, but to focus on that as a sort-of band-aid solution rather than as simply a tool with a purpose obscures the truism that indeed major blockbusters released on both formats sell better on BD - and no BOGO is required for it.

Where HD has an exclusive blockbuster, yes BD acts to retain a PR edge. But at the same time I'm not sure what you mean by 'sustainable,' because truly I don't expect to see BD appreciably decline below 2:1 in the near term.

 

[patsu]

I would love to see the proof of that. If it really was Toshiba's doing, why was Best Buy and Sears' late to the party (not to mention many retailers and Amazon didn't even show up)? Clearly Walmart was first out of the gate with this sale (and thus the original).

The argument is futile. Neither side can prove their beliefs.
For a 50% special discount (regular price was US$199 ?), it would usually involve the product vendor. e.g., Walmart could have gone to Toshiba to request for special discount in exchange for a guaranteed volume. BestBuy and others may follow the same deal later. In this example, the promotion would be blessed by Toshiba.

There's a difference between a sale and giving away for free.

Here's a well known marketing exercise:
(A) Half price
(B) 50% off
(C) Buy one, get one free
They are essentially the same thing, but one of these is 40% more effective than the others. Which is it ?

I think the BOGO sales is a good technique but like everything else, overuse is detrimental (50% player sales or 50% movie sale).

One intended effect may be to get people to see the differences between *DVD* (Not HD DVD) and Blu-ray. Hopefully once they get used to the differences, they will shop Blu-ray. A lot of people already have Blu-ray player thanks to PS3. Converting them to buy Blu-ray as a habit is also key to their strategy.

Good marketers know that they not only have to pay attention to their competitors, they must also pay even more attention to their target audience (the DVD folks).

 

[Carl B]

You made the original claim so now back it up; I'm just asking for proof. But I'll take this weak argument as you don't have any.

If my posts are something you find weaker than one-sentence responses like this, then so be it. But I would ask you...

1) How much do you think Toshiba charges Best Buy, etc. for the HD-A2? Do you believe it to be under $100 in normal circumstances? Do you believe that Toshiba made these units for under $100?

2) Do you assert still then that Wal-Mart was the initiator of the HD-A2 sale, independent of cooperation with Toshiba?

I can't 'prove' it to you any more than I can or cannot prove the existence of a god, but at a point the absurdity of a position maintained simply for the sake of itself stands out. Whatever your feeling as to the source of the sale - if even you are bold enough to state one beyond challenging mine - I am extremely confident of my claim that Toshiba was directly behind enabling these retailers to price the unit at $100.

 

[AlphaWolf]

Never heard of loss leader? It's not all that uncommon (it is in fact quite common) for a retailer to initiate and intentionally sell a product at a loss.

 

[willardjuice]

1) How much do you think Toshiba charges Best Buy, etc. for the HD-A2? Do you believe it to be under $100 in normal circumstances? Do you believe that Toshiba made these units for under $100?

If you believe the kids at AVS, $185.

2) Do you assert still then that Wal-Mart was the initiator of the HD-A2 sale, independent of cooperation with Toshiba?

Yep.

 

[patsu]

BestBuy and others may not need to follow if it's just a loss leader. The supply is limited.

 

[Carl B]

Getting player prices down and units available in quantity at low prices into stores for the holiday season has been Toshiba's plan and goal all along. On the other hand Sony and Co.'s non-stop BOGO sales have all been reactionary in order to keep up their pretentious disc "sales" lead in the face of growing HD DVD disc sales.

One could say that Toshiba's plan of mass-market pricing is itself reactionary in the face of a larger and better funded opponent. And certainly that is the case, and certainly it is a good plan in that light. But it's the use of the word "reactionary" for BD and the attribution of some sort of "master plan" to Toshiba's moves that highlight the problem with so much of what is posted in this thread, and it all leads back to my prior comment about "pick-and-choose viewpoints" - both camps are reactionary, and both camps are pursuing their plans. That is how any business is run. But it's the need of some folk to use certain words with a negative connotation - as if the BOGO sales imply haplessness or incompetence elsewhere, where the HD DVD player pricing is considered honorable and a masterstroke - that I have a big problem with.

 

[Carl B]

Never heard of loss leader? It's not all that uncommon (it is in fact quite common) for a retailer to initiate and intentionally sell a product at a loss.

Yes, but these HD DVD players at Best Buy and Sears did not fit that mold. The fact that the sale exploded across retail - in Best Buy's case strictly online in all reality - on a product with basically no mass appeal in conjunction/response to a huge marketing campaign put into motion by Wal-Mart/Toshiba should show that this was not the norm.

In fact, never before have I seen anything like that occur in retail. Price-matching is a different beast than suddenly announcing that you too have the same product for the same 50% off price.

And it's a klaxon in my mind blaring Toshiba-led sale.

 

[Carl B]

If you believe the kids at AVS, $185.

Ah yes, the kids at AVS. Well great, now we know what they think, but I asked what you think... and assuming you agree with 'the kids,' then how can you *not* understand where this sale would have occurred with Toshiba's blessing (aka discounts)?

Afterall, what did Wal-Mart gain from it but some moved HD DVD players? Certainly by all accounts people just came, bought the players - maybe a TV on sale - and left. Not even the media sold in volume that day, and it to was on sale. Which begs again - why so much HD DVD discounting? Toshiba.

Frankly I think you're being insulting to Toshiba in that you think they had nothing to do with it. Is their strategy so hands-off? And then if you truly believe that, what do you think it is that they actually *do* in terms of retail promotions/partnerships? Nothing?

 

[willardjuice]

Yes, but these HD DVD players at Best Buy and Sears did not fit that mold. The fact that the sale exploded across retail - in Best Buy's case strictly online in all reality - on a product with basically no mass appeal in conjunction/response to a huge marketing campaign put into motion by Wal-Mart/Toshiba should show that this was not the norm.

In fact, never before have I seen anything like that occur in retail. Price-matching is a different beast than suddenly announcing that you too have the same product for the same 50% off price.

Then why did my local BestBuy price match the HD-A2 at $98 for me on that Friday? It's pretty obviously Walmart made a splash with its sale, so BestBuy/Sears followed suit.

Ah yes, the kids at AVS. Well great, now we know what they think, but I asked what you think... and assuming you agree with 'the kids,' then how can you *not* understand where this sale would have occurred with Toshiba's blessing (aka discounts)?

Walmart sold them at a loss to move merchandise to make room for the A3 (that's why when BestBuy sold too many A2's they replaced them with new A3's).

 

[AlphaWolf]

BestBuy and others may not need to follow if it's just a loss leader. The supply is limited.

And?

 

[AlphaWolf]

Yes, but these HD DVD players at Best Buy and Sears did not fit that mold. The fact that the sale exploded across retail - in Best Buy's case strictly online in all reality - on a product with basically no mass appeal in conjunction/response to a huge marketing campaign put into motion by Wal-Mart/Toshiba should show that this was not the norm.

Huge marketing campaign? I must have missed the TV blitz

In fact, never before have I seen anything like that occur in retail. Price-matching is a different beast than suddenly announcing that you too have the same product for the same 50% off price.

I've seen it happen a lot with other electronics products, stores a few years ago were blowing out old projection big screen tvs for much less than half their MSRP.

There's no mold for loss leader other than a product a store is willing to take a hit on to bring in a certain demographic of customers. Loss leaders come in all shapes and sizes and they don't need to be ipod popular to get people into the store. Less popular products may bring in less foot traffic and less sales, but they'll also incur less of a loss based on that.

And as for price matching.

Either prior to purchase or within 30 days of purchase (14 days for computers, monitors, printers, notebook computers, camcorders, digital cameras, radar detectors, portable DVD players, and air conditioners) should you find a lower advertised price, including those on the internet from an authorized Canadian Dealer, we will match that price and beat it by giving you an additional 10% of the difference.

It would make good sense for Best Buy to match the prices as it could actually save them money.