AMD: R7xx Speculation

[CarstenS]

I'm not sure about them sending auto-OC drivers around, but they are already sending out PR shit:

Maybe they should remember that next time, they're going to compare their ~1.3 GHz ALUs against the ~3.x ALUs of Intels (and while they're at it, recognize, that SSE3 is also SIMD - otherwise it'd be their 10 'processors' against Intel/AMDs 4 in the CPU-area.).

 

[Arun]

Well, if the problem is running hot, hopefully some partners will come up with nice custom cooling solutions in the next few months...

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

Core counts are as about as useful as MHz ratings.

And later when convenient backtracked to:

Intel has four cores in the desktop market and in 2009 it will likely go to eight cores; and Nvidia as of today has 240 Cores in its 1.4 billion transistor GT200 GPU

Nvidia always does this. When they can't compete with the hardware, they fling PR FUD about and redefine industry terms to mean whatever shows them in the best light.

Nvidia certainly don't have an NV30, but it looks like ATI may have an R300, and low price and good yields on such a small chip is going to hurt Nvidia as they struggle to compete on pricing/yields with their monolithic monster GPU. So they wheel out the PR BS to make up the slack.

 

[MulciberXP]

Well, if the problem is running hot, hopefully some partners will come up with nice custom cooling solutions in the next few months...

I always wait for the dual slot coolers to come out. I really dont understand running these mid-high end cards with a single slot cooler. Not in the days where everything is integrated on the motherboard anyway. I'm certainly not running out of slot space.

 

[leoneazzurro]

Well, if the problem is running hot, hopefully some partners will come up with nice custom cooling solutions in the next few months...

One of the cards is factory overclocked, too (Asus 4850 TOP). If it's single slot with those frequencies, no wonder it's hot

 

[trinibwoy]

I'm not too sure why people are getting so excited by this card when it only gives 9800GTX level performance , the exiciting thing is the cost, but now it seems nvidia have matched that.

Yes, price is part of it. And arguably that is plenty to get excited about. But that's not the whole story. People are also excited because:

- They crammed a shitload of ALUs and TMUs into a small die beating all reasonable expectations
- AA performance is back
- We now have serious competition in the market which means lower prices and better products all around (see 9800GTX price drop)
- People love to root for the underdog and see them make a big comeback

I don't get the anti-Nvidia-PR rebukes in the last few posts though. AMD has a powerful marketing card to play with a 800 processor / 1 Teraflop card. If Nvidia is matching that performance wise with much lower theoretical numbers it will be silly for them not to launch a counter campaign. You would be pretty naive to think otherwise.......

 

[Jawed]

You would be pretty naive to think otherwise.......

Come on, don't colour us surprised - and it's amusing.

Jawed

 

[Rangers]

Is the NDA supposedly up on 4870 as well this morning or just 4850?

We've seen precious few 4870 benches actually.

 

[Mintmaster]

I'm not too sure why people are getting so excited by this card when it only gives 9800GTX level performance , the exiciting thing is the cost, but now it seems nvidia have matched that.

That's just it though. First NVidia drops the 9800GTX to $299, and now they have to go down to $199. Without RV770 this wouldn't have happened.

What's more is that we're talking about a 625MHz chip here. Assuming 55nm makes G92b near RV770 in size, the 9800GTX needs shaders running at 3x the clock just to match performance.

We still have the 4870, and who knows how far they can bump up the clock in future revisions, or if they go asynchronous. It's a milestone in computational density.

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

I don't get the anti-Nvidia-PR rebukes in the last few posts though. AMD has a powerful marketing card to play with a 800 processor / 1 Teraflop card. If Nvidia is matching that performance wise with much lower theoretical numbers it will be silly for them not to launch a counter campaign that does nothing but lie to customers. You would be pretty naive to think otherwise.......

Fixed your quote.

Fact is, we should not let companies get away with FUD/BS/Spin/lies when those of us with an understanding can educate those people who don't know what is going on.We simply shouldn't accept companies that lie to us to get our money.

It's obvious when we see PR say "number of cores aren't meaningful" and then flip around to "we have more cores than Intel" when it's convenient. Which is true and which is untrue? Can we just discount everything Nvidia claim because we don't know what is true and what is lies?

 

[IbaneZ]

Is the NDA supposedly up on 4870 as well this morning or just 4850?

We've seen precious few 4870 benches actually.

Just the 4850 today.

Yes we have just made a decision to change something.

Here’s what we’re planning to do. Effective 3:00 PM EDT today we will be lifting the embargo preventing the publishing of ATI Radeon HD 4850 performance previews. These performance previews may include ATI Radeon HD 4850 benchmarks, photos of the ATI Radeon HD 4850 hardware, information printed on related packaging or photos of the packaging itself, information provided in the ATI Radeon HD 4800 series strategy deck (attached) and related pricing information.

All other ATI Radeon HD 4850 related information provided at the NDA press briefings continues to fall under the embargo until 12:01am EDT on June 25th, as does all information and benchmarks related to the ATI Radeon HD 4870.

Basically what’s happened is our partners have started selling the products and in some cases reviewers that we have and have not sampled have already bought and received the product and published stories. We’re not able to control the situation anymore so we need to give the media the ability to publish info.

http://www.techpowerup.com/63335/AMD_launches_Radeon_HD_48xx_Series_Today.html

 

[trinibwoy]

Fixed your quote.

Fact is, we should not let companies get away with FUD/BS/Spin/lies when those of us with an understanding can educate those people who don't know what is going on.We simply shouldn't accept companies that lie to us to get our money.

It's obvious when we see PR say "number of cores aren't meaningful" and then flip around to "we have more cores than Intel" when it's convenient. Which is true and which is untrue? Can we just discount everything Nvidia claim because we don't know what is true and what is lies?

Sigh, educated people should also know better than to throw inconsequential hissy fits over semantics. Both statements are essentially true no matter how twisted they are for marketing purposes.

Is a GPU faster than a CPU at parallel workloads? - Yes
Is a 128 ALU GPU generating around the same performance as an 800 ALU one? - Yes

The fact that AMD doesn't have a marketing department doesn't automatically make Nvidia's the root of all evil. Their use of "core" is laughable at best but "lying to customers" is a bit of an overzealous stretch.

 

[Sunday]

That's just it though. First NVidia drops the 9800GTX to $299, and now they have to go down to $199. Without RV770 this wouldn't have happened.

I wonder how do recent customers of 9800GTX cards are feeling now? or even better how does current stock owners of 9800GTX cards are feeling nov?

What's more is that we're talking about a 625MHz chip here. Assuming 55nm makes G92b near RV770 in size, the 9800GTX needs shaders running at 3x the clock just to match performance.

Well G92 is 330mm² big and I can't see what magic can bring it on 260mm² die size of RV770!?

We still have the 4870, and who knows how far they can bump up the clock in future revisions, or if they go asynchronous. It's a milestone in computational density.

QFT

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

Sigh, educated people should also know better than to throw inconsequential hissy fits over semantics. Both statements are essentially true no matter how twisted they are for marketing purposes.

They do say a good lie has a grain of truth at it's core... (ahem).

Sure, it's all right for you to be all jaded over it, but I know less technical people that would have been mislead into buying things that are not in their best interest based purely on marketing spin. Nvidia doesn't get points for being technically correct to the letter whilst being misleading in as much of the spirit as possible.

The fact that AMD doesn't have a marketing department doesn't automatically make Nvidia's the root of all evil. Their use of "core" is laughable at best but "lying to customers" is a bit of an overzealous stretch.

Not really. It's Nvidia trying to game the customers the same was as they've gamed so much else. I just don't think that AMDs unwillingness to sink to the same level of disinformation is an excuse. I don't think we should have to take it for granted that "every company misleads and more fool the customer if he gets caught out".

That's not the kind of company I want to do business with, and for the most part it's unnecessary as Nvidia can make some very good products, yet they still feel the need to be dishonest and misleading when communicating with their potential and current customers.

 

[trinibwoy]

To be misleading you have to lead someone to the wrong conclusion. What exactly is the wrong conclusion that Nvidia is leading people to?

And how is it any different than AMD's comparisons that use theoretical flops as the measure?

(lol just got the core pun...nice one )

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

Basically what’s happened is our partners have started selling the products and in some cases reviewers that we have and have not sampled have already bought and received the product and published stories. We’re not able to control the situation anymore so we need to give the media the ability to publish info.

Anyone seen any 4870s for sale? If that happens and ATI lose control of that launch, we should see 4870 reviews pretty quickly.

 

[ZerazaX]

4870s are supposedly shipping so we might see some soon !

 

[Mintmaster]

Well G92 is 330mm² big and I can't see what magic can bring it on 260mm² die size of RV770!?

Even 290 mm2 is pretty close, IMO. Arun is also suggesting that 65nm wasn't as small as it could have been for NVidia.

 

[AnarchX]

Better die-shot:

http://whatifgaming.com/ati-radeon-hd-4850-review-show-me-the-ruby

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

To be misleading you have to lead someone to the wrong conclusion. What exactly is the wrong conclusion that Nvidia is leading people to?

That things like the performance don't matter because it's all about the mhz. Until it's not, then it's all about the precision, until it's about the cores. Until someone else has more of them, unless it's useful to claim that Nvidia have more cores than an Intel CPU.

It's all about the general muddying of the waters, silently redefining well understood meanings so that you can say things to the customer that you can then backtrack on and claim "that's not what we meant". It's a general level of dishonesty that goes beyond putting your best in a good light, and into pretending that black is white and that what was good yesterday (because you had it) is bad today (because you don't). Cheats in drivers, exaggerated scores in benchmarks that are not reflected in gameplay, "leaked" marketing slides about your competitors with incorrect info, etc.

It's a trend for dishonesty that should not be encouraged in any industry, no matter who does it. And people like you who are jaded by it and don't want to hear it any more are helping companies get away with conning the majority who are not as savvy as you are.