Unreal Engine 5, [UE5 Developer Availability 2022-04-05]

[Karamazov]

Isn't that a good thing?


Yes indeed that is what happens. Nanite does not support deformation currently so when cars are deformed they get swapped to non-nanite versions.

I'll refrain from commenting too much on the specifics for now as I enjoy reading people's reactions, but for folks saying this is not that different from any other game, I really encourage you to go up high and view the whole city (hell rotate the sun ), then go zoom in super close on the detail in the scene as there's some pretty insane stuff even in places where you would never normally get that close. In some cases there are more polygons in some random roof greebles that are never in view from the ground than in entire buildings in other games. A few examples in these shots (yes... that's really geometry for the chain link fences), but it's all over the place:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1469250195896422402

This is of course a tech demo with a relatively small dev team/timeline compared to a real game (let alone a full open world one). Still, while stylistically it may not work for everyone, from a technical point of view I do believe it sets some new bars in terms of detail levels in a fully dynamically lit large world on a console.

Aside: before everyone was complaining about there only being rock demos and wondering if Nanite could do anything else like a city. Now you're complaining about cities

At the begnining of the demo, the first shot of old keanu talking, is it real time ? How do you handle those shirt déformations so nicely ?

 

[Scott_Arm]

Does the demo have credits to say how many people worked on it?

I think some of the comparisons being made are a bit unfair in the sense that real AAA games have budgets of $50+ million and enormous teams and contractors. Time and money can brute force a lot of hand-crafted detail. It's also an engine that's still in early access and not fully optimized or production ready. I guess it just depends on what you expect a tech demo to do.

The things I'm impressed about are the draw distance and detail, the general quality of assets from any distance. The aerial shots of the city are unparalleled by my eye. The game has a pretty natural lighting look to it. The fact that it's fully dynamic being lit only by the sun and emissive surfaces is technically impressive. I would say the lighting and the shadows just generally look natural and "right" which is not true of pretty much any games right now (with the exception of the pedestrians and their shadows). Games are designed around their limitations, so a fully dynamic lighting environment does open opportunities that aren't necessarily explored here.

The weak point to me is the pedestrians.

I don't have an xbox or ps5 to check it, so I'm going just from youtube and may be missing some slow updates of lighting or temporal issues, noise etc.

 

[cheapchips]

New Does the demo have credits to say how many people worked on it?

The FXguide article said 60-100 artist working over a year. It's not a small effort by any means, but still short of the time/effort plowed into an AAA title.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Some people (very overrepresented in tech enthusiast forums) would rather see something from the 90s at 8k...

Very much disagree. I think the majority here would prefer photorealism at 1080p than PS2 games, even PS3 games, at 8k120. The problem here for those of us less enthusiastic is that the photoreal isn't photoreal enough (the closer you get, the more uncomfortable the subtle failings become) and/or has already reached previously, or has been hinted at so the trajectory is already anticipated, such that it's not so exciting.

For me, the discourse in the car is really uncomfortable. Their mouths are too stiff. Even if it's the best in-game lipsyncing ever, I'm not seeing it in terms of improving tech, but how it fails to look real. There's no real solution to that and just an unfortunate reality with how (some) people will be affected the Uncanny Valley principle.

Reviewing the city tech though, it is excellent. I think it would have benefited from a different overall presentation. Replace the people with mechs and armoured space marines and you'd avoid a lot of the vulnerabilities!

 

[cwjs]

Very much disagree. I think the majority here would prefer photorealism at 1080p than PS2 games, even PS3 games, at 8k120. The problem here for those of us less enthusiastic is that the photoreal isn't photoreal enough

I think the level of negativity over artifacting here and the comparisons to ps4 games says otherwise.

To join in the negativity for a bit: I think the metahumans are dragging this down a little. Envs are stunning, cars are stunning,. but the metahumans feel like a marketing/business choice rather than whats best for the demo. The background characters look cobbled together from stock character creator assets (which they are.) The hero characters look stunning, but for them the metahuman rigs feel like a limitation to me. Rather than pushing a one size fits all solution, I wish the same artists got to make custom everything. (Love the skin shading and spline based hair though)

 

[BitByte]

Very much disagree. I think the majority here would prefer photorealism at 1080p than PS2 games, even PS3 games, at 8k120. The problem here for those of us less enthusiastic is that the photoreal isn't photoreal enough (the closer you get, the more uncomfortable the subtle failings become) and/or has already reached previously, or has been hinted at so the trajectory is already anticipated, such that it's not so exciting.

For me, the discourse in the car is really uncomfortable. Their mouths are too stiff. Even if it's the best in-game lipsyncing ever, I'm not seeing it in terms of improving tech, but how it fails to look real. There's no real solution to that and just an unfortunate reality with how (some) people will be affected the Uncanny Valley principle.

Fully agree. As you get to photo-realism, the flaws easier to pick out. Personally speaking, none of this looks remotely photo-realistic. I can easily tell it's a game even in screenshots due to shadowing, reflections, etc. The biggest contribution UE5 brings for me is nanite as the density of the geometry is next gen.

With regards to lipsyncing, I don't necessarily agree that it's the best ever. I was more convinced by some of TLOU2's real time cutscenes than I was with this demo. It looked so artificial and I can't figure out why. Something about the facial expressions just looked off to me in general.

Am I being a bit harsh on this demo? Perhaps but, I think that's due to the way they advertised it. If they just shadow dropped this demo and said, here's a cool thing we've been working on, I might be more lenient in my analysis. As it stands, they came out shouting from the rooftops that this demo is "photo-realistic" and as a result, it'll invite a higher level of scrutiny. All in all, the demo is just whatever. A bit boring as other than nanite, it doesn't seem to be doing anything special. Even then, with nanite, there are compromises. A whole city and no foliage? No grass, leaves, etc... Very little free moving clutter on the street. I really could go on for days.

 

[techuse]

I definitely don't want to be defending Tim Sweeney, but when then statements like this are made it's based on what 40Tf could achieve with the technology at the time. As time goes on, a flop delivers more - sometimes marginally, sometimes drastically.

This tech demo [on PS5] impressed me, but I'm curious what they would need to sacrifice to get this running at a solid 60fps.

Wasn’t meant to be an attack in any way, just an observation that photorealism is much further away than was ever anticipated. Hard to imagine it happening on consumer hardware in the next few decades.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I think the level of negativity over artifacting here and the comparisons to ps4 games says otherwise.

There's a HUGE difference between comparing to PS4 titles and your hyperbolic assertion that these people would rather be playing PS2 games at 8K120. The true difference is, say, 30 fps neophotorealism versus 60 fps pseudophotoapproximation, and that's where some are preferring 60 fps at 'pretty enough' quality over 30 fps 'even prettier'.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Some of the takes here seem a bit weird, to be honest. You have an enormous city with high quality assets. The draw distance is basically pixel perfect with indistinguishable changes in LOD. All of the lighting is real-time, so you could morph the terrain, or remove buildings or take chunks out of them and all of it would update correctly. But instead there's a weird focus on some stiff facial animation, current gen smoke, temporal artifacts, frame pacing etc. Seems like a "can't see the forest for the trees" problem to me, but everyone has difference preferences.

 

[iroboto]

Some of the takes here seem a bit weird, to be honest. You have an enormous city with high quality assets. The draw distance is basically pixel perfect with indistinguishable changes in LOD. All of the lighting is real-time, so you could morph the terrain, or remove buildings or take chunks out of them and all of it would update correctly. But instead there's a weird focus on some stiff facial animation, current gen smoke, temporal artifacts, frame pacing etc. Seems like a "can't see the forest for the trees" problem to me, but everyone has difference preferences.

This demo checks off nearly every single box that all gamers have ever asked for. There are compromises made to check said boxes, but to focus on these to discredit the amazing technology in display here is honestly deflating.

I don't want to remind everyone of when Sony released the PS5 showcase back in summer of 2020, and everyone telling us these are next gen graphics, these are next gen games, can't get this without ssd, can't be done on PC, can't do this or that. And this demo, with crazy asset quality, realtime GI, ray tracing hardware being leveraged, SSD being leveraged, maximum asset variety, mass AI simulations, real time destruction, near instant loading, small hard drive size etc etc. and with the Matrix I'm being told that Miles Morales city scapes looks better. Some of the takes here about the demo rival how ridiculously good looking this demo is.
The detail in the environments are unparalleled, the animation is incredible, destruction which is not found in most games, is incredible, the global illumination is incredible. The fact that it's running on consoles as weak as 4TF to 12TF locally (not online) is still mind boggling for me.

If this isn't next gen, I honestly don't know what is.

 

[Karamazov]

I mean, when you are shooting at the agents and they jump on cars, crushing them, just like in the movies, that was some WTF moment for me, questionning myself if it was really running in realtime.

 

[Shoujoboy]

I have to say this was incredible to me.
The lighting in particular blew my mind, I didn't even realize I was "playing the game" once I got to that bit.

I also agree with the missing the forest for the trees sentiment. I think people are failing to see just how insane this
by focusing on a few flaws.
The sheer speed at which they transitioned from one shot to another, completely in real time with a incredible amounts
of detail on display is..just...hard to process.

 

[DavidGraham]

I dare anyone here to provide a shot from Miles Morales that rival this demo in terms of lighting or city density either in daylight or night. All I hear is just weak hand waving.

Yes the animation is a bit stiff, reflections are lackluster on many surfaces, particles leave a lot to be desired, foliage is missing, but none of that was the focus of the demo, the real focus is geometry density (where are the proponents of that?), fully dynamic GI and lighting, and the massive draw distance, the insane AI density, the clothing physics, ... etc, and many many more.

For god's sake, you have to freaking squint hard in most of the screenshots circulating the net just to determine whether they are real or not!

 

[mr magoo]

yeah i am speachless, i wanted next gen but this is something else. This completly blew my mind, its on another level from basicly everything i saw so far. There are pretty and good looking games but this is something else.

 

[mr magoo]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FGQaQqxXMAA6kq5?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FGO0MEBXsAYi8MA?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FGO0IGgXIAIctT7?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

what the actual fuck!

 

[DavidGraham]

I'll refrain from commenting too much on the specifics

Cab we get some specifics about the RT implementation?

 

[PSman1700]

Blows everything else shown so far away, including the 2020 and 2021 UE5 demo's. And you can actually play it and theres moving NPC's everywhere lol. Knowing that UE5 is now supporting (or going to) hardware ray tracing, its going to be intresting next year how this looks on pc, aswell as other games based on this incredible engine.
From this generation on, the most impressive looking games arent just the ones from AAA-exclusive to one platform studios. Great advancements and finally that true generational leap. This is just a demo done by a small-ish team, imagine a larger funded studio can do (hellblade 2?).

 

[BitByte]

This demo checks off nearly every single box that all gamers have ever asked for. There are compromises made to check said boxes, but to focus on these to discredit the amazing technology in display here is honestly deflating.

I don't want to remind everyone of when Sony released the PS5 showcase back in summer of 2020, and everyone telling us these are next gen graphics, these are next gen games, can't get this without ssd, can't be done on PC, can't do this or that. And this demo, with crazy asset quality, realtime GI, ray tracing hardware being leveraged, SSD being leveraged, maximum asset variety, mass AI simulations, real time destruction, near instant loading, small hard drive size etc etc. and with the Matrix I'm being told that Miles Morales city scapes looks better. Some of the takes here about the demo rival how ridiculously good looking this demo is.
The detail in the environments are unparalleled, the animation is incredible, destruction which is not found in most games, is incredible, the global illumination is incredible. The fact that it's running on consoles as weak as 4TF to 12TF locally (not online) is still mind boggling for me.

If this isn't next gen, I honestly don't know what is.

Which check boxes are you referring to? I'd love to know about these check box items that all gamers agreed on. Maybe my invite to said conference was lost in the mail. Animation incredible? Hardly. Destruction incredible? What? The only destruction that was noteworthy is the destruction on the cars and Wreckfest, a ps4 game, has better destruction. Global illumination was good but it's not like we're seeing GI for the first time. Devs have been baking GI since ps4 days with Assassin's creed Unity and we've seen real time GI with Metro Exodus. What makes this so incredible? It's hardly a generational leap. The only incredible thing done here is Nanite and that's it. As I've said many times, Nanite is fantastic and a generational improvement but the rest? Nope. Even with nanite, there are caveats. Notice how every single UE5 demo is lacking in foliage? Yea, there's a reason for that.

All I'm seeing on here is hyperbolic praise for a demo that is hardly impressive. The demo runs at sub 30 fps and can drop as low as 18 frames per second. We're supposed to be impressed by that? This demo just gives off strong GTA 4 ps360 vibes in terms of performance. If you remove nanite from this demo, this demo would be below average.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I dare anyone here to provide a shot from Miles Morales that rival this demo in terms of lighting or city density either in daylight or night. All I hear is just weak hand waving.

I debated ignoring this, but you must realise this is a rubbish comparison? Spider-Man Miles Morales (and Watch Dogs Legion) are year-old crossgen launch games. I am hugely impressed with the amount of activity in the Matrix Experience, although there is a massive lack of diversity of the city.

The quantity of traffic is very impressive but there is traffic and there is traffic. No traffic AI has impressed me as much as GTA where the AI will route around (or even barge through) obstructions when stressed, which is something Watch Dogs still does not do. I've mentioned this before but cause even a mild obstruction on a cross-roads in Watch Dogs and wait and there'll be a jam within minutes. You'll never see this in GTA because they spent effort on ensuring the AI is more adaptive.

I speculated in a previous post what this demo would have to sacrifice to hit 60fps. I wonder the same about also having to run an actual game and I do not mean to take a thing away from the visuals. This is definitely a taste of what will come but it's obvious that they have focussed every ounce of free resource on running a city where pedestrians and cars move rather aimlessly.

Add in AI and event scripts, more complex audio, full interactivity and you need to cut back elsewhere.

 

[pjbliverpool]

The lighting in some of those shots is brilliant.
The thing is though, ppl are now used to 60fps in games as standard, I doubt they are gonna want to go back to 30fps.
That and the lack of foliage are the biggest issues but exciting times ahead anyways.

I for one would rather play something that looks like that at a smooth 30fps than something that looks like Miles Morales at 60fps any day of the week. I find the comparisons to that game a little bizarre, there's a clear generational difference there IMO.