Nvidia giving free GPU samples to reviewers that follow procedure

Gamersnexus and co are not only critizing nVidia they go against every developer who wants to push graphics. Thats the problem. When HUB is calling Raytracing in "Deliver us the Moon" worthless it is an attack on the developers. Is this acceptable from a neutral reviewer?

Yes.
 
Wasn't gamers nexus conclusion if you need perf use it. It was literally said in the end. That's what dlss is for, added performance with some compromises due to how performance is achieved. Sometimes better than native, sometimes worse as pointed out by gamers nexus. Though in case of cp2077 there is no native by default, it's TAA vs. DLSS. Both integrate multiple frames together. TAA has its own flaws as shown in video.

The digs towards nvidia were deserved. Didn't bother me.
 
Seriously? You're suggesting sponsored gamedev interview published by NVIDIA themselves should have more weight to it than GamersNexus (which is quite a bit more than "youtuber")?

No, i say that these reviewers should talk to the developers when they are calling their work and effort "worthless".
KeokeN Interactive is an indie developer who has updated their game for the pc plattform with raytracing and DLSS. Getting called out and critized for this is hurting the pc plattform.
 
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I'm lumping in all the non RT settings under rasterization for the sake of this discussion.

Ok, fair enough. So the comparison is RT on vs RT off? DF has a few videos out covering cyberpunk visuals. You should check them out. Their take is that the game looks great without RT but RT adds another level of accuracy for shadows and reflections. They actually touted volumetrics as the most impressive visual flair in the game.

What do you think is a bigger visual jump. Console settings to the ultra preset, or the ultra preset to ultra preset with the RT options enabled?

Well the PS4 is apparently running at 720p with terrible TAA and world detail turned way down (fewer cars, people, clutter etc) so it’s no comparison.
 
No, i say that these reviewers should talk to the developers when they are calling their work and effort "worthless".
KeokeN Interactive is an indie developer who has updated their game for the pc plattform with raytracing and DLSS. Getting called out and critized for this is hurting the pc plattform.

No, it's not hurting the PC platform. If reviewer thinks implementation of something, no matter what it is, isn't worth it, they can and should say it out loud. And yes, every reviewer is entitled to their own opinions, no matter if you like their opinions or not*.
It's literally the point of reviews to call out these things, be it good or bad, for the product in review. They're not an advertising network for hardware and games.

And again, can you please show where they call it "worthless", or is this just your exaggaration?

*clear bias by reviewer needs to be of course also called out by readers, but HUB hasn't done anything suggesting a bias. They've gone through countless hours of testing RT and DLSS, with and without each other, in probably every single supported game out there to form their opinion on it.
 
And again, can you please show where they call it "worthless", or is this just your exaggaration?

*clear bias by reviewer needs to be of course also called out by readers, but HUB hasn't done anything suggesting a bias. They've gone through countless hours of testing RT and DLSS, with and without each other, in probably every single supported game out there to form their opinion on it.

Here:

And then look at this comparision from "Deliver us the Moon": https://imgsli.com/MzQwMTY
Do you think you cant notice the visual difference with Raytracing?

"Deliver us the Moon" is a showcase title for Raytracing.
 
F has a few videos out covering cyberpunk visuals. You should check them out. Their take is that the game looks great without RT but RT adds another level of accuracy for shadows and reflections. They actually touted volumetrics as the most impressive visual flair in the game.

They think its a game changer.

Well the PS4 is apparently running at 720p with terrible TAA and world detail turned way down (fewer cars, people, clutter etc) so it’s no comparison.

There is no more PS4 version to speak off. And rightfully so.

God why didn’t AMD just match Nvidia’s RT performance so we could avoid all this stupidity.

All RDNA2 gpus have hardware RT, all next gen consoles do, all ampere gpus have it. Heck, it wouldnt suprise me if mobile phones get it soon. All with varied performance differences. All are aboard the same train. If i go out and get a 6800XT i invested and partially paid for RT functionality, same for the other hardwares.

Theres no need for warring for or against RT.
 
Theres no need for warring for or against RT.

No need at all. It’s pretty obvious to me that the debate isn’t really about RT but thinly veiled rehashes of IHV preferences. It’s very tiresome.

Yes Nvidia is going to hype RT because they invested in it and currently have an advantage. That in itself will cause an allergic reaction for some folks. But the tech itself is solid and it’s almost certain that the future of lighting in games will be based on some sort of RT.
 
Here:

And then look at this comparision from "Deliver us the Moon": https://imgsli.com/MzQwMTY
Do you think you cant notice the visual difference with Raytracing?

"Deliver us the Moon" is a showcase title for Raytracing.
In which language does
"the main advantage though of the geforce gpu as i see it is the more mature ray tracing support and of course dlss 2.0 though both are questionable features and in our opinion aren't major selling points unless you play a specific selection of games basically what i mean by that is the game support list is just too limited dlss 2.0 is amazing it's just not enough games there are even less games where you can really enjoy ray traced effects the best aaa implementations that we've seen so far at least in our opinion is watch dogs legion and control though again the performance hit is massive but at least you can notice the effects in those titles"
(straight from youtube transcript)

Translate into "RT & DLSS in Deliver us the Moon is worthless" ?
Or even more general "RT & DLSS are worthless"?
 
[...]the best aaa implementations[Raytracing] that we've seen so far at least in our opinion is watch dogs legion and control though again the performance hit is massive but at least you can notice the effects in those titles
Did HUB test "Deliver us the Moon"? Did he think that the reflections are not noticeable?!

I have been playing the game since the patch and Raytracing is noticeable from the first minute.
 
No need at all. It’s pretty obvious to me that the debate isn’t really about RT but thinly veiled rehashes of IHV preferences. It’s very tiresome.

Yes Nvidia is going to hype RT because they invested in it and currently have an advantage. That in itself will cause an allergic reaction for some folks. But the tech itself is solid and it’s almost certain that the future of lighting in games will be based on some sort of RT.

AMD isnt even doing 'bad' in ray tracing, its up to what a turing gpu did. Their 6800 series are up to sniff imo. Godfall has ray tracing going for amd pc version, before nvidia users get it.

@Kaotik If ray tracing and reconstruction tech are questionable features, then why is AMD also investing into those? They have hardware RT ready, and their promising a DLSS like feature. Sony and MS offer it, and intel is rumoured to be doing so too.

What is the problem? :p
 
AMD isnt even doing 'bad' in ray tracing, its up to what a turing gpu did. Their 6800 series are up to sniff imo. Godfall has ray tracing going for amd pc version, before nvidia users get it.

@Kaotik If ray tracing and reconstruction tech are questionable features, then why is AMD also investing into those? They have hardware RT ready, and their promising a DLSS like feature. Sony and MS offer it, and intel is rumoured to be doing so too.

What is the problem? :p

Just because something is questionable at the moment doesn't mean it won't be viable in the future. It's more relevant for many to consider these things from todays perspective rather than some arbitrary date in the uncertain future.
Of course RT will become bigger and bigger thing in the future, but that's the future. Current hardware and software on is still relatively in it's infancy and for many the performance hit simply isn't worth it.
As for DLSS and the like, I expect every solution to degrade image quality due artifacts just like DLSS does, and I hope games won't ever be developed (on PC anyway) aiming at everyone using some "AI"-scalers, CP2077 looks almost as if it was. I want the devs to have full control on rendering, which you don't have with DLSS (and probably won't have on equivalent competing technologies either)

Did HUB test "Deliver us the Moon"? Did he think that the reflections are not noticeable?!

I have been playing the game since the patch and Raytracing is noticeable from the first minute.
Haven't checked what games they've reviewed, shouldn't you be the one checking these things since you're the one making claims about HUB?
And just because reflections are there it doesn't mean they're necessarily noticeable to every gamer (as in, they're not something everyone necessarily notices unless they specifically look for it)
 
Just because something is questionable at the moment doesn't mean it won't be viable in the future. It's more relevant for many to consider these things from todays perspective rather than some arbitrary date in the uncertain future.
Of course RT will become bigger and bigger thing in the future, but that's the future. Current hardware and software on is still relatively in it's infancy and for many the performance hit simply isn't worth it.

Yes, im not saying or disagreeing if its worth the impact on performance or not, since that seems subjective. I think its worth it, another doesnt. Thats why you have choices, even on console.
What i mean is, if we like it or not, ray tracing is on every piece of hardware today for gaming (Ampere, RDNA2, next gen consoles), and all have software/games on them with the option for ray tracing. Its kinda in its infancy yes, but everyone is on the same boat.....
You could have a point if consoles didnt have hardware ray tracing, cause then the baseline is kinda.... ye, then it could be a problem. But now ALL are in it. And its going to see usage.
I just cant see it happening that ray tracing, in special on consoles, is going to get unused in some years. Devs will find ways to implement it, even if its lower quaility/subtle like reflections in spiderman, it still looks better then without.

Its the same for reconstruction, its kinda a must, or do we want 1440p native for the rest of the generation on consoles?

Edit:


See DFs video, they like the raytracing and reconstruction tech in this one. For good reasons, because those enhance graphics and performance.
 
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Yes, im not saying or disagreeing if its worth the impact on performance or not, since that seems subjective. I think its worth it, another doesnt. Thats why you have choices, even on console.
What i mean is, if we like it or not, ray tracing is on every piece of hardware today for gaming (Ampere, RDNA2, next gen consoles), and all have software/games on them with the option for ray tracing. Its kinda in its infancy yes, but everyone is on the same boat.....
You could have a point if consoles didnt have hardware ray tracing, cause then the baseline is kinda.... ye, then it could be a problem. But now ALL are in it. And its going to see usage.
I just cant see it happening that ray tracing, in special on consoles, is going to get unused in some years. Devs will find ways to implement it, even if its lower quaility/subtle like reflections in spiderman, it still looks better then without.
Yes, "everything" supports RT now. Except vast majority of gaming machines out there. It will be years before you can ignore pre-RT PC hardware and last gen consoles (even if it's easier on consoles).
We're all in the same boat, but that doesn't mean everyone expects the boat to sail to the same port, at least not at the same time. It's entirely possible that current generation RT hardware won't ever cut it for many gamers for RT, unless there's some revolution on software side that allows them to do a lot more with a lot less. It's not just about better, it's about better at reasonable performance hit, which again is of course subjective.
But I'm not sure how any of that has anything to do with HUB and their point that currently it's not a major selling point and are questionable features unless you happen to play exactly those few titles.

Its the same for reconstruction, its kinda a must, or do we want 1440p native for the rest of the generation on consoles?
Consoles have always made compromises on pretty much everything, including resolution, they don't need to affect PC side of things.
 
Some final thoughts before I archive this topic.

Steve's digs at Nvidia aside (which are amusing and on point), it's a comprehensive piece on DLSS in Cyberpunk specifically that really shows both its strengths and weaknesses, where overall in most scenarios its definitely beneficial, even for those focused on rendering accuracy IMO. It highlights some definite issues like motion blurring and flickering, AO weirdness and artifacts with lights but also some amazing things it can do with detail reconstruction. But since it's no longer kosher here to criticize anything Nvidia does without the promoter crew bearing down on you, DLSS is perfect!

Yes, absolutely this.
We had the “AMD Defence Force” for a few years, trying their best to defend Phenom, Bulldozer, Mantle, Vega, Zen 1 and so on, and now we have to deal with the “Nvidia Defence Force.” It just gets tiring and stupid, and the discussion just isn’t worthy to be on a place like Beyond3D. That level of scarecrowing and shilling deserves to stay on reddit forums, not here.

It is possible to be a fan of ray tracing and ML-based filtering techniques, but not a fan of the contemporary implementations of these technologies.

For example, I love big, power-hungry GPUs; but that doesn’t mean I have to be a fan of chips like R600, Fermi, Fiji, Kepler, Vega, and Ampere.

Another youtuber? Maybe it makes more sense to link to somebody who is a game developer. Here is a interview from nVidia with a chinese company who has focused on the integration of DLSS and Raytracing:
https://news.developer.nvidia.com/refreshing-a-live-service-game/

Gamersnexus and co are not only critizing nVidia they go against every developer who wants to push graphics. Thats the problem. When HUB is calling Raytracing in "Deliver us the Moon" worthless it is an attack on the developers. Is this acceptable from a neutral reviewer?

This is probably one of the worst takes in this entire thread, and a fine example of what I’m talking about.


Anyway, it’ll be interesting to see how or what AMD has up their sleeves in terms of a competitor to DLSS. It should be interesting, and I kind of realised that DLSS would probably benefit (in relative terms) Navi 2nd gen more than it would Ampere.

It’s pretty obvious, even when we just focus on rasterisation performance, that Navi 2nd gen struggles to scale performance up as resolution increases. Navi, even at a lower power budget, can outperform Ampere at 1080p and 1440p, but concedes performance (at a pretty noticeable margin) at 4K. If Navi 2nd gen could do DLSS, then it should address whatever bottlenecks the uarch is running into at 4K — with all things being equal (not sure if this can hold, but we’ll see).
 
HWUB spends quite a bit of time on RT in their latest Q&A. They’re obviously very cagey about the topic now after the episode with nvidia.

 
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