NextGen Audio: Tempest Engine, Project Acoustics, Windows Sonic, Dolby Atmos, DTS X

[Davros]

Entropy what do you think of holophonics ?

Think of this, you don’t have any other ears than the 2 the headphones are covering,

being a star trek fan he has 3, the left ear, the right ear, and space the final front ear.....

ps:
personalized HRTF presets

 

[Gubbi]

Binaural sound does not have to be recorded at the ear drum, that just causes a lot of problems. (It is however our research heritage, from studies of auditory function). The reason is simple - if you reproduce a sound recorded in the ear canals of a dummy head using headphones, the sound will pass through two outer ears .

Exactly, binaural sound works best (only?) when using headphones where the sound is blasted directly at your eardrums. It has very little use in a multichannel surround-sound setup.

Cheers

 

[goonergaz]

As long as a person's own HRTF map is created. Which is not going to happen very often, anytime soon.

Not true, this is just to get the very best most accurate 3D performance.

Just chuck on some cheapies and try out the barbers demo.

 

[goonergaz]

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Headphones give devs absolute control over the sounds in your ears whereas amps (no matter how good the setup) do not allow the devs absolute control - there are differences in rooms that simply cannot be calculated, in maybe ways rooms are like the ears none are exactly alike!

As for bass replication, you can get those buttkickers or just have the bass running.

No ears are exactly alike is true. But all ears perceive the same sounds.

As well, things like Atmos DO give absolutely control. With Atmos a developer cannot tell the system which speaker or speakers a sound plays out of. The Atmos engine does that. Thus it has a few requirements.

• Speakers at multiple heights and multiple points around a room.
  • You want at least 7.1.4 (12 speakers) but can make do with 7.1.2 or even 5.1.2 although coverage will be worse.
  • More speakers would offer more coverage, but 7.1.4 is sufficient for good coverage and good quality.
• The Atmos system then uses those speakers to calibrate for each individual room including obstacles in the room.
  • If you skip the calibration phase like some people do then your setup won't correctly reproduce the location of the sound.
  • This also allows it to modify the audio in order to both account for reflection off of surfaces (like the floor) as well as use them to enhance the sound coverage.
• Similar to HRTF, Atmos shapes/alters the sound coming out of each speaker to similar what sounds between speakers would sound like when it gets to a person's head.

While HRTF can give a convincing 3D audio soundscape, it still can't match a good Atmos system.

OTOH, not everone has an Atmos setup or can use an Atmos setup (like mobile devices or due to cost reasons), so HRTF is getting more widespread use.

That said, because Atmos is an audio engine, it is also easily adapted to HRTF because the only thing that is important when encoding for Atmos is the location of the sound.

That actually makes it easier for developers to deploy 3D sound stages if they wish to target both home stereo systems AND HRTF headphones.

And just as HRTF support and implementations are continually being improved Atmos and things similar to it will continue to be improved.

Regards,
SB

 

[goonergaz]

No ears are exactly alike is true. But all ears perceive the same sounds.

As well, things like Atmos DO give absolutely control. With Atmos a developer cannot tell the system which speaker or speakers a sound plays out of. The Atmos engine does that. Thus it has a few requirements.

• Speakers at multiple heights and multiple points around a room.
  • You want at least 7.1.4 (12 speakers) but can make do with 7.1.2 or even 5.1.2 although coverage will be worse.
  • More speakers would offer more coverage, but 7.1.4 is sufficient for good coverage and good quality.
• The Atmos system then uses those speakers to calibrate for each individual room including obstacles in the room.
  • If you skip the calibration phase like some people do then your setup won't correctly reproduce the location of the sound.
  • This also allows it to modify the audio in order to both account for reflection off of surfaces (like the floor) as well as use them to enhance the sound coverage.
• Similar to HRTF, Atmos shapes/alters the sound coming out of each speaker to similar what sounds between speakers would sound like when it gets to a person's head.

While HRTF can give a convincing 3D audio soundscape, it still can't match a good Atmos system.

OTOH, not everone has an Atmos setup or can use an Atmos setup (like mobile devices or due to cost reasons), so HRTF is getting more widespread use.

That said, because Atmos is an audio engine, it is also easily adapted to HRTF because the only thing that is important when encoding for Atmos is the location of the sound.

That actually makes it easier for developers to deploy 3D sound stages if they wish to target both home stereo systems AND HRTF headphones.

And just as HRTF support and implementations are continually being improved Atmos and things similar to it will continue to be improved.

Regards,
SB

You’re talking about a setup for one chair in a room which never changes - this setup is extremely rare I would say...and personally I don’t think it would have the pinpoint precision the headphones allow - I guess I need to experience it and compare.

 

[Lalaland]

A proper surround set up is incredible also expensive and difficult to set up without a dedicated home cinema room. For most folks headphones are going to get 90% of the effect for a similar discount on the cost. I would love Sony to support both perhaps I'm naieve but at some point the system is deciding which HRTF to apply to the sound source above me and it doesn't seem too hard to send to channel X instead.

 

[Deleted member 13524]

You’re talking about a setup for one chair in a room which never changes - this setup is extremely rare I would say..

I'm sad to say that >90% of the time I play alone in my living room when I'm playing console games. I do the automatic speaker calibration for my seating position.

For most folks headphones are going to get 90% of the effect for a similar discount on the cost.

Maybe, if you believe the low frequencies account for 10% of the effect.

Not true, this is just to get the very best most accurate 3D performance.

Just chuck on some cheapies and try out the barbers demo.

I've heard the barber's demo several times throughout the years, both with cheap and not-that-cheap earphones and headphones.
It's overrated IMO.

 

[xz321zx]

Red herring #1
Headphones price is no indicator of binaural performance, especially of those with dynamic drivers can suffer in presence of low frequency tones (and should because equal loudness contour demands increasing amplitude swing ) , as coil misalignment and what not guarantees different intermodulation and compression products between sides, doesnt show up on freq plots
Red herring #2
HRTF performance not only gained by more detailed measurement but also by adaptation, this leads back to #1 as you cannot adapt to perturbed drivers and there are multiple sources of perturbations, presumably in one extreme it is quicker to adapt the other downright impossible
Red herring #3 (4-5-6-7?)
Maybe if I have time

 

[goonergaz]

I'm sad to say that >90% of the time I play alone in my living room when I'm playing console games. I do the automatic speaker calibration for my seating position.



Maybe, if you believe the low frequencies account for 10% of the effect.



I've heard the barber's demo several times throughout the years, both with cheap and not-that-cheap earphones and headphones.
It's overrated IMO.

Nothing sad about it, I’m simply saying it’s an outliner in the scheme of things.

Regarding the barber demo, did you try the one I posted? I’m interested to know if a speaker setup can replicate the pinpoint accuracy of where objects are like that demo with headphones.

 

[Quadbitnomial]

Nothing sad about it, I’m simply saying it’s an outliner in the scheme of things.

Regarding the barber demo, did you try the one I posted? I’m interested to know if a speaker setup can replicate the pinpoint accuracy of where objects are like that demo with headphones.

There is this specific part of that demo that i think speakers will never be able to replicate. When he put a plastic bag over your head, i felt it over my head. it was creepy but i loved it.

 

[pjbliverpool]

There is this specific part of that demo that i think speakers will never be able to replicate. When he put a plastic bag over your head, i felt it over my head. it was creepy but i loved it.

Yes completely agree.

 

[xz321zx]

Importance of reverberation time (that's inevitably mangled outside wavefield synthesis / holophony and wearable scenario):

... it can be shown that RT is the underlying acoustical parameter governing 4 out of the 5 important listener aspects. Besides, if any acoustician where allowed to ask for only one single number in order to obtain information about the acoustics of a concert hall, that would most likely be the mid-frequency RT. Rather than having become an obsolete physical quantity, the reverberation time may turn out to be more significant than ever, defending its position as the mother of all room acoustical parameters.

https://www.akutek.info/Papers/MS_reverberationtime_BNAM2010.pdf

 

[mrcorbo]

I prefer to not game with headphones for the same reason VR never really grabbed me. I find headphones/headsets to become uncomfortable to wear over long sessions and I don't like to completely isolate myself from the outside world for extended periods of time. I appreciate the increased immersion both of those interfaces provide, but I also find the experience of using either more fatiguing and I'm more inclined to punch out quicker than when I'm playing using speakers and a watching a screen.

Given this, I won't benefit from headphone-only 3d sound much and it's not really a draw for me.

 

[turkey]

I prefer to not game with headphones for the same reason VR never really grabbed me. I find headphones/headsets to become uncomfortable to wear over long sessions and I don't like to completely isolate myself from the outside world for extended periods of time. I appreciate the increased immersion both of those interfaces provide, but I also find the experience of using either more fatiguing and I'm more inclined to punch out quicker than when I'm playing using speakers and a watching a screen.

Given this, I won't benefit from headphone-only 3d sound much and it's not really a draw for me.

Missing out on good audio would be a shame but everyone is different, I can recommend good noise cancelling headphones which whilst sounding like hell may actually help if you wanted to use headphones.

I have some AKG ones although I think all the more premium brands are similar, basically things better than the £50 Amazon specials. Mine feature an outside aware mode which instead of isolating the outside it uses the external mics to actually dynamically bring the outside in. It's wired but you can hear everything around you as well as the audio.

Comfort is a whole other thing but better headphones feel better, I cannot wear my cheap ANC headphones now without ear ache after a very short time. No idea why as they fit about the same but was the main reason I upgraded.

Anyhow just a fyi rather than some headphone crusade

 

[goonergaz]

I prefer to not game with headphones for the same reason VR never really grabbed me. I find headphones/headsets to become uncomfortable to wear over long sessions and I don't like to completely isolate myself from the outside world for extended periods of time. I appreciate the increased immersion both of those interfaces provide, but I also find the experience of using either more fatiguing and I'm more inclined to punch out quicker than when I'm playing using speakers and a watching a screen.

Given this, I won't benefit from headphone-only 3d sound much and it's not really a draw for me.

A decent pair of headphones can literally melt on your head - I’ve not play any long sessions yet, but the Arctis 7x are extremely comfortable.

 

[Nisaaru]

I prefer to not game with headphones for the same reason VR never really grabbed me. I find headphones/headsets to become uncomfortable to wear over long sessions and I don't like to completely isolate myself from the outside world for extended periods of time. I appreciate the increased immersion both of those interfaces provide, but I also find the experience of using either more fatiguing and I'm more inclined to punch out quicker than when I'm playing using speakers and a watching a screen.

Instead of a "gaming" headset get a "high end" open-can design by actual *real* headphone companies which have decades of experience in designing them than reselling relabelled cheap china design stuff.

I've used a Beyerdynamics t70 and now an Amiron. Both have excellent wear quality which never got uncomfortable. The t70 got some time getting used to treble wise but the Amiron never got exhausting over long hours playing.

You can also still listen to stuff outside(in my case iPad background videos) I have positioned next to my seat.

The only real issues are that you have to find your own solution for mics if you need them during gaming and sweat during the summer.

P.S. With headphones you should also never play too loud.

 

[xz321zx]

Earphones can be put inside a silicone sleeve, so you dont buy >0.3grand personal earphones rather insert new ones into a personal sleeve. As of yet this is rare because all kinds of iem with nonstandard shape and more and more drivers taking up space. You can clean it daily with isopropyl alcohol IMO far preferable to headphones.
Example:
https://www.sensaphonics.com/products/shure-sleeves

"Soft silicone sleeves to convert this universal-fit product to custom-fit, providing greater isolation, comfort, and fit."

 

[mrcorbo]

I have some AKG ones although I think all the more premium brands are similar, basically things better than the £50 Amazon specials. Mine feature an outside aware mode which instead of isolating the outside it uses the external mics to actually dynamically bring the outside in. It's wired but you can hear everything around you as well as the audio.

Wouldn't modifying the inbound sound in this way break the carefully constructed 3d soundfield?

 

[mrcorbo]

Why are so many of you assuming I have only used cheap headphones? It's precisely that I won't settle for cheap that makes me reluctant to purchase what I would consider "adequate“ headphones for gaming given that my experience so far with headphones purchased for private gaming/movie/music listening has led me to believe they would end up sitting in a drawer.