Xbox Series S [XBSS] [Release November 10 2020]

That's a lot of concern from some non-Xbox guys. Guess we will see how it all turns out.

Tommy McClain
I'm not sure about people not owning xbox but the types of concern is interesting.
People might buy it expecting their tv to do 120fps even though tv doesn't support it
Next it will be what about people expecting hdr on unsupported tvs
Atmos on non atmos audio set ups
Some of the other concern seems just as interesting to me.
 
You don't need HDMI 2.1 for 1080p @120 Hz. HDMI 1.3 can do 1080p @120 Hz as well as 2560x1440p @60 Hz. HDMI 2.0 can do 2560x1440p @120 Hz although not all TV manufacturer's support that resolution. XBSS has a max target of 2560x1440p @60 Hz, so any TV from the past 10-14 years that has support for 120 Hz should be fine.

Regards,
SB

Yes, lots of those TVs knocking about too. I'm sure that all the guys buying a Series S will have those obscure TVs. I'm not even convinced that Series S will display 120hz on anything other than a 2.1 HDMI TV.

I don't know why you're defending a console when you're likely going to be getting a Series X (the one that sounds decent).
 
I was wondering why MS didn't just go for a digital version of the Series X. That way they could have avoided all this talk about how well the Series S will theoretically perform. But at $299, I guess you can't really complain. Well, I guess you could... but it's clearly a move by MS to get people into the gamepass ecosystem by giving consumers a cheap entry point.
As they've said its getting harder and harder to price reduce consoles.
In xbox view, people should be able to get into next gen, when before it took years for the price to go down enough.
Where now they can jump in a lot sooner, some from the start as a bonus.
 
That would save $50 at most. So where do you pull out the other $150? Do you also suggest they shrink the 1TB NVME too?
Yeah NVMe storage is still quite expensive -- going from 1TB to 512GB on the Series S did seem to be the biggest contributor (amongst other things) to finally getting that $299 price tag. Eh, I'm just throwing random talking points in the air. At the end of the day, the Series S is a great console for what it is. I think MS might have something here in terms of getting their consoles to fly off the shelves.
 
Naw... that'd lead to the same split shenanigans as XSX but with even less gain. That would be 8GB @ 224GB/s + 4GB @ 112GB/s

Ideal would have been 6x2GB @ 336GB/s (192-bit), 84GB/TFLOP

Well that would certainly have been better from a performance POV, but it would require another 10%-ish on the chip, a slightly more complex and probably a larger mobo (and therefore case) and also mean you were stuck with 6 memory chips even when 4GB modules are around.

So definitely better, but I was trying to go with nothing else to increase size or BOM beyond just the cost of one more memory chip.

From what I understand, 4Pro was bandwidth limited between its 218GB/s and 4.2TF (GCN). RDNA2 may be more forgiving with the updated cache hierarchy and greater L2 sizes, but then Zen 2 is going to be hungrier than Jaguar as well. I'm not entirely convinced that consoles this gen aren't bandwidth limited all around.

PS4 was about 95GB/TF.
4Pro & OneX were about 52-54GB/TF
PS5 >44GB/TF
XSX 46GB/TF

I also think BW is going to be tight this gen. MS's unique memory arrangement speaks to how much they really felt they needed that 320-bit bus (even though they were sticking with 16 GB).

I think the PS4 GB/TF numbers stand out because it didn't have delta colour compression, which AMD reckoned increased effective BW by up to something like 40%. It will be interesting to see some of the in depth tests on PC RDNA 2 looking at BW scaling.

Regarding CPU overhead, I've found it interesting in the past to subtract some BW from console numbers to account for CPU + contention and then redo the GB / TF numbers.

I'm going with the old comments that real BW is about 85-ish % of theoretical, and then subtracting a further 25 GB/s for the overclocked Jaguars and 50 GB/s for Zen 2 (pulled out of my arse, but when life gives you lemons ... or something).

4Pro: ((218 GB/s x 0.85) -25) / 4.2 = 38 GB/TF
X1X: ((320 x 0.85) - 25) / 6 = 41
PS5: ((448 x 0.85) - 50 ) / 10.3 = > 32
XSX: ((560 x 0.85) - 50) / 12.2 = 35
XSS: ((224 x 0.85) - 50) / 4 = 35

Again, I had to pull some numbers out of the air for this, but for illustrative purposes I think it's okay. Obviously, how the numbers of channels affects things I dunno other than that more is supposedly better. X1X has 10 to 4Pros 4 IIRC. MS claim 20 for XSX, so probably 16 for PS5 and 8 for XSS.

But just looking at these numbers (that I have made up) XSS isn't looking so bad, relatively. But yeah, we'd better hope RDNA 2 has a lot of BW saving features over Polaris era AMD.
 
I find it odd that their focus during the Series S video was on 120hz gaming. The device is for people on a budget, it's unlikely that many people buying this will have a TV that's HDMI 2.1 compliant.

Series S and a 4k@120hz TV seem contradictory to me?
I think they're just taking the 120Hz / high framerate from the more powerful CPU and HDMI 2.1 output.

The SeriesS is probably better equipped to play a 1080p XBone game at 120 FPS than the One X was, despite lacking in memory bandwidth and the GPU being arguably slower or at best equivalent.
 
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Why not 4x2gb (128 bit - 224GB/s) + 1x2gb (32 bit - 56GB/s) and a discarded memory channel?

Well my thoughts are that you'd still be paying the cost on die of the full 64-bit controller. And I'm not sure if a typical memory controller will even operate unless all it's pins / channels are live. I figure it's probably something you'd have to design a controller to do, as I don't recall ever seeing a controller not be fully used on either GPU or CPU or whatever. Using or disabling parts of a bus has typically been done at the level of a controller afaik. (anyone?)

Like you, I did consider it when I first heard about the 10 GB rumours though!
 
I think they're just taking the 120Hz / high framerate from the more powerful CPU and HDMI 2.1 output.

The SeriesS is probably better equipped to play a 1080p XBone game at 120 FPS than the One X was, despite lacking in memory bandwidth and the GPU, despite having many more features, being arguably slower or at best equivalent.

Still, the people that are buying the Series S for "next gen" gaming at 120hz or 1440p won't be getting it at all. At best 120hz will be on indies or last/last-last gen games and even then only for people with a suitable TV, which won't be for many of the people buying a budget console. Know what I mean? The messaging is all wrong.

They're essentially suggesting that the Series S is capable of next gen games at 1440p and 120hz. And the reality is that it'll be only 1080p next gen games.

I'm just saying that the messaging should be realistic, otherwise folks will be disappointed.
 
Yes, lots of those TVs knocking about too. I'm sure that all the guys buying a Series S will have those obscure TVs. I'm not even convinced that Series S will display 120hz on anything other than a 2.1 HDMI TV.

I don't know why you're defending a console when you're likely going to be getting a Series X (the one that sounds decent).

I'm unlikely to get any console unless 2 things happen.
  • The ability to configure any and all titles for minimum 60 Hz rendering.
  • KB/M support in all games I'd want to play.
The first bullet point is the far more important one but the second one is important if I want to do all my "core" gaming on the machine.

Currently, I don't see myself getting either console. That said, I do find the engineering and engineering choices that go into consoles fascinating. Hence why I engage in these discussions.

It's especially fascinating when you see consoles converging with PCs. You see PC influences in consoles and you see console influences in PC.

Regards,
SB
 
Still, the people that are buying the Series S for "next gen" gaming at 120hz or 1440p won't be getting it at all. At best 120hz will be on indies or last/last-last gen games and even then only for people with a suitable TV, which won't be for many of the people buying a budget console. Know what I mean? The messaging is all wrong.

They'll be playing a bunch of XBone games at 120 FPS through BC, assuming the engine supports dynamic framerate... and assuming the gamer has a HDMI 2.1 TV with 120Hz refresh.

During the SeriesS presentation the dev from Coalition (Gears of War) said the SeriesS' GPU was "over 4x faster" than the XBone's. The CPU is also over 4x faster.
I think it's safe-ish to assume that a number of XBone games that played at 1080p30 will be playing at 4x the framerate, hence 1080p120.

As for the 1440p, I guess that's the ceiling Microsoft put on rendering resolution for games that support dynamic resolution. Take a 1080p30 XBone game and maybe you'll be able to select between 1440p60 and 1080p120. If it's a XBone 1080p60 game then the SeriesS can probably play it at 1440p120.



Know what I mean? The messaging is all wrong.
The messaging isn't wrong per se. It's just.. pivoted.
Looking at the numbers I think they're obviously talking about XBone BC or at least XBone-class games that will be playing at 1440p120. Like Halo Infinite, for example.
 
Still, the people that are buying the Series S for "next gen" gaming at 120hz or 1440p won't be getting it at all. At best 120hz will be on indies or last/last-last gen games and even then only for people with a suitable TV, which won't be for many of the people buying a budget console. Know what I mean? The messaging is all wrong.

They're essentially suggesting that the Series S is capable of next gen games at 1440p and 120hz. And the reality is that it'll be only 1080p next gen games.

I'm just saying that the messaging should be realistic, otherwise folks will be disappointed.

Something I feel isn't brought up enough in regards to the whole HDMI 2.1, 120hz, 1440p, etc. etc. etc: and peoples potential dissapointment.

(This is in reference to your post, but I don't want it to come off as a poke at you. Any use of "you" is really for all of us here to consider. Not an attack of some sort. In case tone gets lost in text.)

How many people have no clue and no frame of reference? Whether it is us here, Resetera or reddit members, I think we get a really skewed picture of what this means for most people.

Quick non-fictional example. A friend works, has 2 small children to help raise, games whenever he can. Tech head who has built his own PC's for as long as I have (going back to around the 386sx days) and has had a console every generation. He doesn't know anything we are talking about here. Nothing. He doesn't know when they release. He has seen none of the "showcases". Only knows about GamePass because I informed him of it. He couldn't tell you anything about HDMI 2.1 other than he knows it represents some industry standard. Even then, it would probably never occur to him that he needs a new HDMI cable to manage the bandwidth. The port is the same, he knows enough that a lot of expensive cables are complete scams, he would just assume - plug it in and go. 3 years ago, I selected his parts and built his PC for him to help out and save him countless hours of research. He bought a 2017 TCL 4 series a few years back. On sale, around the holidays. He got it because it was cheap and served its purpose. He is very happy with it. Looking at a game in motion, he couldn't tell you the difference between 30hz, 60hz and 120hz gameplay. Maybe between 30 and 60 if you set them side-by-side. Which is a comparison he will not have available even if he was looking for it.

What chance do most of the customers have with all of this? How many people will be reliant upon others for information on all of this? If they even bother to look. The best you can hope for on some of this is that they will probably look at the "star" rating on a website before buying.

How many sets will have fake HDMI 2.1? The usual - HDMI 2.1!, 4K!, 120hz!, HDR, UHD, buzzword, buzzword, buzzword - plastered all over the ads and the box. And then the reality - it is a 60hz panel with "motion smoothing" turned on by default and its color range and contrast are terrible. How many get their set sight unseen from Amazon? Or picked up because they were notified of a sale at Walmart and didn't even bother to go look at the display model in the back, just grabbed the box with $399 written on the sign next to it and headed for the door?

I don't think that many people are going to be disappointed at all. People will go home and plug in their new console and, maybe, their new tv and go "Wow. That's awesome!" New games, virtually non-existent loading times and a bright 65" tv they paid $500 bucks for. The price and the size being the key elements in that decision. (I just checked Best Buy, Amazon is giving me issues, they list a 65" TCL for 4-series $447 . A TV with a 4.7 out of 5 star rating on BesBuy's website. It will have every buzzword but 120hz on the box.) The closest to a problem I can really see is the AD models of both not clicking in the heads of some. They could buy a game at the store along with the console and go home to find that there is no OD. Yeah, at Gamestop, you would have a decent chance of someone saying something. The electronics section of Walmart or Target? Amazon certainly isn't going to say anything. Best Buy? Maybe 50/50 if you are lucky and it is not a holiday season madhouse? Costco or Sams? Good luck. You are more likely to be molested by someone wanting to sell you a new cell phone.

I just don't think we consider what this means to most people and how they will experience it when looking at "problems". People will go home and be ecstatic with their new setup. They might even splurge on a sound bar....
 
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This post is so true I wish I could like it twice. :)

The reality is that people don't even have 1440p or 120hz sets. It's bullet points on a box.
 
Supposedly all their media was put onto a Microsoft site that was publicly accessible if you knew where to look kast Monday, thats how the Lockhart details and video got out early. This was probably there too.

I'm watching this now. This seems such a odd format for the press who generally just want the headline information followed by the details. This rehearsed conversation style actually seems better suited to something they intended to release to the public.

edit: too long, I bailed half-way through part 4.
 
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Something I feel isn't brought up enough in regards to the whole HDMI 2.1, 120hz, 1440p, etc. etc. etc: and peoples potential dissapointment.

(This is in reference to your post, but I don't want it to come off as a poke at you. Any use of "you" is really for all of us here to consider. Not an attack of some sort. In case tone gets lost in text.)

How many people have no clue and no frame of reference? Whether it is us here, Resetera or reddit members, I think we get a really skewed picture of what this means for most people.

Quick non-fictional example. A friend works, has 2 small children to help raise, games whenever he can. Tech head who has built his own PC's for as long as I have (going back to around the 386sx days) and has had a console every generation. He doesn't know anything we are talking about here. Nothing. He doesn't know when they release. He has seen none of the "showcases". Only knows about GamePass because I informed him of it. He couldn't tell you anything about HDMI 2.1 other than he knows it represents some industry standard. Even then, it would probably never occur to him that he needs a new HDMI cable to manage the bandwidth. The port is the same, he knows enough that a lot of expensive cables are complete scams, he would just assume - plug it in and go. 3 years ago, I selected his parts and built his PC for him to help out and save him countless hours of research. He bought a 2017 TCL 4 series a few years back. On sale, around the holidays. He got it because it was cheap and served its purpose. He is very happy with it. Looking at a game in motion, he couldn't tell you the difference between 30hz, 60hz and 120hz gameplay. Maybe between 30 and 60 if you set them side-by-side. Which is a comparison he will not have available even if he was looking for it.

What chance do most of the customers have with all of this? How many people will be reliant upon others for information on all of this? If they even bother to look. The best you can hope for on some of this is that they will probably look at the "star" rating on a website before buying.

How many sets will have fake HDMI 2.1? The usual - HDMI 2.1!, 4K!, 120hz!, HDR, UHD, buzzword, buzzword, buzzword - plastered all over the ads and the box. And then the reality - it is a 60hz panel with "motion smoothing" turned on by default and its color range and contrast are terrible. How many get their set sight unseen from Amazon? Or picked up because they were notified of a sale at Walmart and didn't even bother to go look at the display model in the back, just grabbed the box with $399 written on the sign next to it and headed for the door?

I don't think that many people are going to be disappointed at all. People will go home and plug in their new console and, maybe, their new tv and go "Wow. That's awesome!" New games, virtually non-existent loading times and a bright 65" tv they paid $500 bucks for. The price and the size being the key elements in that decision. (I just checked Best Buy, Amazon is giving me issues, they list a 65" TCL for 4-series $447 . A TV with a 4.7 out of 5 star rating on BesBuy's website. It will have every buzzword but 120hz on the box.) The closest to a problem I can really see is the AD models of both not clicking in the heads of some. They could buy a game at the store along with the console and go home to find that there is no OD. Yeah, at Gamestop, you would have a decent chance of someone saying something. The electronics section of Walmart or Target? Amazon certainly isn't going to say anything. Best Buy? Maybe 50/50 if you are lucky and it is not a holiday season madhouse? Costco or Sams? Good luck. You are more likely to be molested by someone wanting to sell you a new cell phone.

I just don't think we consider what this means to most people and how they will experience it when looking at "problems". People will go home and be ecstatic with their new setup. They might even splurge on a sound bar....

Are you suggesting that the average Joe can't tell the difference between 1080p and 4k and therefore it doesn't matter how to market these machines? If that were the case why bother with the Xbox One X or the Xbox Series X?

My 10yo understands the concept of resolution and framerate. I think you're doing people a disservice.

I guess we'll come to see over the next year or so what people think to the Series S. There are lots of Xbox fans that think it's great, but not because they're intending on buying one, they're interested because they feel it might sell more Xboxes.

We'll see how the thing sells and that will be the best indicator of true interest.

I was thinking about PS5 gamers that potentially buy it as a second console, the multiplatform third-party games will then sell significantly better on PS5, as there's no way these people will choose the same priced Series S game over the significantly enhanced PS5 version.

I realise I'm in the minority with these views on the forum, so I'll leave it there. I just think this is the least interesting Xbox they've ever produced, I'd sooner buy the One X.

It'll be an interesting year, even if I'm proven wrong :)
 
Are you suggesting that the average Joe can't tell the difference between 1080p and 4k and therefore it doesn't matter how to market these machines? If that were the case why bother with the Xbox One X or the Xbox Series X?

My 10yo understands the concept of resolution and framerate. I think you're doing people a disservice.

Understanding what it is and being able to see the difference in a blind test are very different. A test so blind they do not even know it's a test is the scenario proposed.

I would say most people would fail to tell the difference (myself included) , this is more true now with aa solutions that remove jaggies effectively.

There was a good video on this, a blind test for the participants (all gaming journalists) to pick the Xbox version, PS4 version and PC version. Pc was running significantly better resolution and frame rate I believe.
The result was not much better than guesswork, I cannot find the video, I will update if I find it.

In this test people knew the game they also knew what differences there could be. Now back to the idea of a customer turning it on without other information, they will just be happy. I cannot see someone saying ohh this looks like 1080p instead of 4k. Likewise given the qty of 30fps games a 120fps.game playing back at 60fps will feel smooth and impressive, I really think it would only be the John Linneman's and die hard PC players who notice un prompted.

Prior history had this with many folk happy with their 360 with the AV cable set to SD not HD.
 
I'm unlikely to get any console unless 2 things happen.
  • The ability to configure any and all titles for minimum 60 Hz rendering.
  • KB/M support in all games I'd want to play.
The first bullet point is the far more important one but the second one is important if I want to do all my "core" gaming on the machine.

Currently, I don't see myself getting either console. That said, I do find the engineering and engineering choices that go into consoles fascinating. Hence why I engage in these discussions.

It's especially fascinating when you see consoles converging with PCs. You see PC influences in consoles and you see console influences in PC.

Regards,
SB

Exactly like me then, other then that i want 144hz for only MP games like CS, BF etc. I also want the best graphics possible at that, so it will always be pc. The playstation is there for its exclusives/games that only appear on the platform.
And yes same here, with the pc it's 'easy' to achieve monster performance ahead of anything else, price, heat and size are no problems (Nvidia..... :p). In consoles they need to think of those terms, curious to see how sony managed the SSD/io solution, audio etc.

Think the PC space is at least as intresting with Ampere, RDNA2, Zen3, new intel cpus and intel GPUs.
 
Are you suggesting that the average Joe can't tell the difference between 1080p and 4k and therefore it doesn't matter how to market these machines? If that were the case why bother with the Xbox One X or the Xbox Series X?

My 10yo understands the concept of resolution and framerate. I think you're doing people a disservice.

I guess we'll come to see over the next year or so what people think to the Series S. There are lots of Xbox fans that think it's great, but not because they're intending on buying one, they're interested because they feel it might sell more Xboxes.

We'll see how the thing sells and that will be the best indicator of true interest.

I was thinking about PS5 gamers that potentially buy it as a second console, the multiplatform third-party games will then sell significantly better on PS5, as there's no way these people will choose the same priced Series S game over the significantly enhanced PS5 version.

I realise I'm in the minority with these views on the forum, so I'll leave it there. I just think this is the least interesting Xbox they've ever produced, I'd sooner buy the One X.

It'll be an interesting year, even if I'm proven wrong :)

I believe my examples were about frame rates, but it would somewhat apply to resolution as well. Bluntly put, yes, I expect a lot of people would have trouble discerning the difference, especially on some of the sets they own. 55 or 65" from 12-15'? The difference between a 1080p to 1440p upscaled image and a native 4K? Yeah, I expect a lot of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Or at least, not enough of a difference. In my experience, they often cannot. Once again, they have no frame of reference.

Your 10yo may understand the concepts just fine. I will be happy to take your word on that. Just like you, my examples are going to be heavily anecdotal. Of the about 40 people that are part of my local family - kids, parents and singles - kids from 2 to 16yo, parents -mostly early 30's but some into their early 40's, I would expect 3 of them to know, care and research about this stuff. Those 3 are my brother (ex-Ti engineer, currently at Garmin) and his 2 teenage boys. I would expect no one else on that list to have much of an idea and would completely lack the motivation to find out. Most people have been trained to know 4K = better image. That is about all they know. How many people do you think will buy a good set, know they need a new cable, and actually setup their tv? Especially the price conscious people who will be buying an S. (early adopters and PS5 people buying a 2nd console I mention below)

Are you the person your friends and family rely on for tech help? I would imagine most of us on here are. Parents, Grand Parents, kids, friends our own age, in-laws. If you are that person, how much do they know before talking to you? How many actually speak with you about something like a new TV? Kids and the retired have time and, maybe, the interest. I just think you are vastly over-estimating peoples eyes, knowledge, and willingness to research. You know how long it took me to find the info on the LG CX and its ability to handle a PC at 120hz 4K 4:4:4? It was about a week ago that I finally came across a Forbes article and HDTVTest posted a video about Nvidia supporting the output and the LG CX being good with the 40Gbps. Now granted, I have not been truly diligent trying to find that out, and I could have just written LG, but I don't have the time to go through the avsforum megathread. The bandwidth was always there, but whether or not it was a supported signal took me ages to find out.

Your example was PS5 buyers who get an S, presumably just for GamePass or some exclusives. We are talking about early adopters then. If they know all about resolution, HDMI 2.1, display setup, etc. - then I would fully expect them to know they are buying a lower end box the marketing for which explicitly states it is a lower resolution machine and meant for 1080p-1440p to be upscaled to 4K if your TV supports it.

I don't know how popular or unpopular either your opinion or the Series S is/ will be. Plenty of people seem to be against its very existence. Probably not that unpopular a take. Hell, I could be wrong as hell and tons of people buy, get annoyed, and return it followed by getting something else. Maybe it gets panned in the mainstream press and completely tanks. Seen plenty of posters here, and elsewhere, saying they will grab one for a bedroom, a kid, or so they have access to the games on the cheap while primarily going with the PS5.

Not only do I plan to get one, I am wondering if I am going to have to preorder from 2 different places because their will be limits that are termed "1 Xbox per customer" which would not differentiate based on model. I was even wondering if I could find the cash to send one to a friend for the holiday's. For me, I am getting an X barring some earth shattering news from Sony. I am getting an S for the bedroom and my wife. There was a debate held, I didn't want her to feel like a 2nd class citizen and thought that maybe the OD was worth it - Redbox videos and the library. While gaming on her Switch, she just told me that she wants to play Grounded with me, asked me if Viva Pinata was on GamePass and said get the S. She would rather save the $200. I

Our examples are just anecdotal. Maybe expanded a bit beyond that by forums and twitter. I look at that price point and the people I know and think they will leap at it. At that price, it won't just be early adopters getting it, but all those price sensitive people that may have waited for years. If they have decent credit, and want GamePass, they can even get the thing cheaper than $300.

edit: And hell yeah this is going to be interesting to watch unfold. I cannot remember a time that presented visions this different. (Unless you want to argue the Xbox One and TV, TV, TV was a different vision... hard to argue with that. Ugh.) Love that they will push each other on price and services. Better for all of us.
 
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I love the device for what it does - it achieves efficiency by sacrificing needless (for a lot of people) pixel-pushing, while maintaining enough horsepower to make each pixel pretty.

I want one but I’m struggling to find a fit for it in my life. It won’t replace my PC. It won’t replace my main living room console (PS4). It won’t replace my switch.

It could have replaced my aging 360 as a bedroom console and been an awesome BC machine if it had a disc slot, but it doesn’t. If every PC game were Xbox play anywhere that would have easily sealed the deal too.
 
Well my thoughts are that you'd still be paying the cost on die of the full 64-bit controller. And I'm not sure if a typical memory controller will even operate unless all it's pins / channels are live. I figure it's probably something you'd have to design a controller to do, as I don't recall ever seeing a controller not be fully used on either GPU or CPU or whatever. Using or disabling parts of a bus has typically been done at the level of a controller afaik. (anyone?)

Like you, I did consider it when I first heard about the 10 GB rumours though!

Now that I noticed that XSX has one controller per chip, it should be 5 in XSS

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