Frame Rates [2019+ Edition] *spawn*

[see colon]

Your claim was that ps4 couldn't physically do 120fps through the hdmi with PSVR, and it's false.

No it wasn't. I never really made a claim, except that HDMI 1.4 doesn't support 120hz at 1080p fon non-3d content (which it doesn't), the PS4 doesn't allow you to set a refresh rate above 60 (which it doesn't) and you brought up psvr and I asked about frame packing, reprojection and the like, and asked for a list of psvr games that run at 1080p and 120 frames per second. I never made any claims about PSVR. I also specified repeatedly 1080p @ 120hz was outside of HDMI 1.4 spec.

That said, if someone can provide me some proof that any game on base hardware, VR or not, runs at 120 hz output, and produces 120 unique frames per second without reprojection or frame packing, I will gladly admit that I am wrong. The only true 120hz games I know of on PSVR are on pro.

 

[Globalisateur]

No it wasn't. I never really made a claim, except that HDMI 1.4 doesn't support 120hz at 1080p fon non-3d content (which it doesn't), the PS4 doesn't allow you to set a refresh rate above 60 (which it doesn't) and you brought up psvr and I asked about frame packing, reprojection and the like, and asked for a list of psvr games that run at 1080p and 120 frames per second. I never made any claims about PSVR. I also specified repeatedly 1080p @ 120hz was outside of HDMI 1.4 spec.

That said, if someone can provide me some proof that any game on base hardware, VR or not, runs at 120 hz output, and produces 120 unique frames per second without reprojection or frame packing, I will gladly admit that I am wrong. The only true 120hz games I know of on PSVR are on pro.

Well someone has compiled a list of PSVR games, Liabe brave at resetera. I don't think anyone has ever tested framerate on PSVR games yet.

As we know off 5 games are native 120fps on base PS4:

- Along together
- Battlezone Gold edition
- Korix
- Playroom VR
- Polybius

I think if you google those you'll see that either the developers confirmed it or sometimes the players who are used to discern re-projected fps or native 120fps recognized native 120fps on base PS4. AFAIK all games on PSVR are re-projected at 120hz, I don't think it's possible for devs not to use the feature, I read it back then, but maybe it changed.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/all-games-with-ps4-pro-enhancements.3101/

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It should be easy to detect reprojection by forcing it with unnatural movements and looking for smearing at the edges.

 

[see colon]

Well someone has compiled a list of PSVR games, Liabe brave at resetera. I don't think anyone has ever tested framerate on PSVR games yet.

As we know off 5 games are native 120fps on base PS4:

- Along together
- Battlezone Gold edition
- Korix
- Playroom VR
- Polybius

I think if you google those you'll see that either the developers confirmed it or sometimes the players who are used to discern re-projected fps or native 120fps recognized native 120fps on base PS4. AFAIK all games on PSVR are re-projected at 120hz, I don't think it's possible for devs not to use the feature, I read it back then, but maybe it changed.

https://www.resetera.com/threads/all-games-with-ps4-pro-enhancements.3101/

So, I'll accept that there is some information here, but this is a forum post. Some information, based on developer interviews and other sources, appears to be not correct. Battlezone, unless things have changed, was a 60hz title with better cockpit lighting and resolution on pro IIRC. Interesting that that forum post, and all other information online points to it being 1080p60 on pro when not played in VR, but somehow they get 1890p@120fps in VR. There are other forum posts where people are claiming it ghosts like a 60hz game. Korix, according to the developer is 120fps, and according to that forum post 1292p no less. The developer never specifies a resolution. The Playstation store page does specify 120fps, though. So does the store page for Polybius, athough that also claims 2x supersampeling on every PS4, so base PS4 wouldn't be rendering at 1080p like that forum post states. The way the store page is written leads me to believe that the 4k mode on pro for that game is non-VR, as they clearly state 2x supersample 120hz VR on every PS4. I have seen absolutely nothing about Along Together's framerates outside of that forum post. I wish there was more information on VR titles as there is no 3rd party verification for any of this. I understand that it's a difficult thing to benchmark, though.

So I think Korix and Polybius are 120fps games on base PS4, maybe some games in the Playroom, not convinced on Along Together, and I think Battlezone isn't. I'm still not sure that they aren't using the same techniques used for traditional 3D in the HDMI 1.4 spec. But I admit there are at lease 2 games that run at 120 fps on base PS4. Strange that they never enabled 120hz for non-VR, non 3D content.

 

[Globalisateur]

@see colon thanks for clearing this up !

 

[tuna]

If you have an older TV you get either 30 or 60 FPS target from devs.

No, you can get 40 fps today, you just get uneven frame time. With VRR displays you get even frame time.

 

[turkey]

I'm still not sure that they aren't using the same techniques used for traditional 3D in the HDMI 1.4 spec. But I admit there are at lease 2 games that run at 120 fps on base PS4. Strange that they never enabled 120hz for non-VR, non 3D content.

I was going to post earlier on this as I thought reprojection was on the PS4 GPU and the breakout box only did the unwarp for second display, even 60fps (rendered) games that are reprojeced to 120fps FPS go over the hdmi cable so not really different to 120fps native. Could be wrong but I am fairly sure this was confirmed as done on the PS4

Also worth saying it's not really HDMI 1.4 spec as it also does HDR. Sony really did well I think here, very forward looking.

Is the PS4 not display port at the GPU side that's converted to hdmi with some other arm chip handling hdcp. If it's going to the breakout box then it can negotiate any arbitrary standard I guess as long as there is the raw bandwidth on the cable, only the connection from the breakout to the TV would need to be compliant hdmi in that scenario I guess.

 

[PSman1700]

native 120fps on base PS4

Why would that surprise anyone though, even the PS2 could run simple titles (for the time) @ 120FPS if wanted.

 

[BRiT]

Why would that surprise anyone though, even the PS2 could run simple titles (for the time) @ 120FPS if wanted.

Because this is more about the HDMI output circuitry than the raw console power.

 

[PSman1700]

Didn't Sony do a firmware update to the HDMI controller for the PS3 also, to update it to newer standards for it's blu ray playback?

 

[see colon]

I was going to post earlier on this as I thought reprojection was on the PS4 GPU and the breakout box only did the unwarp for second display, even 60fps (rendered) games that are reprojeced to 120fps FPS go over the hdmi cable so not really different to 120fps native. Could be wrong but I am fairly sure this was confirmed as done on the PS4

Also worth saying it's not really HDMI 1.4 spec as it also does HDR. Sony really did well I think here, very forward looking.

Is the PS4 not display port at the GPU side that's converted to hdmi with some other arm chip handling hdcp. If it's going to the breakout box then it can negotiate any arbitrary standard I guess as long as there is the raw bandwidth on the cable, only the connection from the breakout to the TV would need to be compliant hdmi in that scenario I guess.

The way reprojection works is, as far as I understand it, similar to the way 3d content is handled, which involves some tricks to get it to actually work and isn't the same as a true 120hz signal. If HDMI can handle 3d content at a faux 120hz, I see no reason why it couldn't handle psvr the same way.

My initial assurtion about PS4 not having 120fps games was completely based on the fact that PS4 is limited to 60hz output in 2d content. Psvr never really crossed my mind until it was brought up.

 

[MrFox]

Well it's already 3D packed (technically side-by-side 3D, 960x1080) so that would be real 120hz, and faux 240hz because there are 240 images per seconds? What's a faux frame rate? The PSVR frame clock is either 90Hz or 120Hz with the low latency that goes with these frame rates. Normal 3D packed formats would have 60Hz latency and wouldn't work for VR if you need to wait for the entire packed data.

There's also a 90fps VR mode allowing a second screen output to the TV. That one is even more interesting, two streams go through the ps4 hdmi, one native 1080p/90 for the VR and another 1080p/30 for the TV which can be a completely different frame buffer from the game engine. Some party games use this for a second camera or to involve other players.

 

[MistaPi]

I think there will be many 60FPS games in the beginning with cross platform games. But if 30FPS where to become dominant I really hope we will se a PS5 Pro and NextBox X for the main purpose of 60+FPS, but I fear that would be much harder to sell than 4K.

 

[Globalisateur]

I was going to post earlier on this as I thought reprojection was on the PS4 GPU and the breakout box only did the unwarp for second display, even 60fps (rendered) games that are reprojeced to 120fps FPS go over the hdmi cable so not really different to 120fps native. Could be wrong but I am fairly sure this was confirmed as done on the PS4

Also worth saying it's not really HDMI 1.4 spec as it also does HDR. Sony really did well I think here, very forward looking.

Is the PS4 not display port at the GPU side that's converted to hdmi with some other arm chip handling hdcp. If it's going to the breakout box then it can negotiate any arbitrary standard I guess as long as there is the raw bandwidth on the cable, only the connection from the breakout to the TV would need to be compliant hdmi in that scenario I guess.

Such an underrated post. It's a very good point. Yes, even without native (true uncompressed etc.) 120fps games, all 60fps games on PS4 actually output 120 fps in the headset via HDMI because of the mandatory re-projection.

Something like: "You realize you will see every game at 120fps as your output right ?*" stuff.

@see colon

*Except when games are 90fps.

 

[Scott_Arm]

120 fps or bust.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Something I don't see mentioned here, but HDMI 1.4 does support 120 Hz output. From Wikipedia.

HDMI 1.4 was released on June 5, 2009, and first came to market after Q2 of 2009.[62][98][99] HDMI 1.4 added support for 4096 × 2160 at 24 Hz, 3840 × 2160 at 24, 25, and 30 Hz, and 1920 × 1080 at 120 Hz.

Shouldn't come as a surprise as I believe some PC Gaming monitors back in that era used HDMI 1.4 connectors and supported anywhere from 72-120 hz over HDMI 1.4 at 1080p.

Regards,
SB​

 

[see colon]

Well it's already 3D packed (technically side-by-side 3D, 960x1080) so that would be real 120hz, and faux 240hz because there are 240 images per seconds? What's a faux frame rate? The PSVR frame clock is either 90Hz or 120Hz with the low latency that goes with these frame rates. Normal 3D packed formats would have 60Hz latency and wouldn't work for VR if you need to wait for the entire packed data.

Are we measuring the refresh rate of the display per eye now? How would it be 240?

Such an underrated post. It's a very good point. Yes, even without native (true uncompressed etc.) 120fps games, all 60fps games on PS4 actually output 120 fps in the headset via HDMI because of the mandatory re-projection.

Something like: "You realize you will see every game at 120fps as your output right ?*" stuff.

@see colon

*Except when games are 90fps.

True, but that's not the game running at a true 120hz update, but more the viewpoint being updated at 120hz. Actually, does the head tracking update that fast? Regardless, this would be at best like playing a muliplayer game that's frame synced at a 60hz tick rate on a 120hz monitor (locked framerate) without client side interpolation. You can turn the camera at 8ms intervals but the updates only come every 16ms.

Something I don't see mentioned here, but HDMI 1.4 does support 120 Hz output. From Wikipedia.



Shouldn't come as a surprise as I believe some PC Gaming monitors back in that era used HDMI 1.4 connectors and supported anywhere from 72-120 hz over HDMI 1.4 at 1080p.

Regards,
SB​

120hz modes are for 3D content. 1080p 2D is limited to 60, or maybe 75.

 

[BRiT]

If you wear glasses, does 60fps become 240fps, cause you know "four eyes"?

 

[MrFox]

Are we measuring the refresh rate of the display per eye now? How would it be 240?

You said 3d frame packing is faux 120, it's not, it's 60fps with two frames interleaved per 1/60 time. That's my point.

Why do you call 3d faux 120?

 

[see colon]

Because the display still updates 120 times a second. On a traditional 3D display, a frame packed 3D signal you get 60 unique images per eye that exist on their own screen refresh (120hz), but it's not the same as a true 120hz update. Hence the "faux 120hz". It's technically 120hz because the screen updates 120 times a second. The entire single screen updates at 120hz on PSVR, so you aren't getting 240hz. 120 would be the max.