Nintendo Switch Technical discussion [SOC = Tegra X1]

nintendo already have tons of experience with new hardware having higher performance than launch model. So even if the new SoC is faster, i believe nintendo already have solution for devs.

if thats the case,h hopefully nintendo will still give the "turbo mode" option
 
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If it would be simply a case of having games running as docked in undocked mode on the new revision, could it not be simply done through firmware like:

if(undocked)
if(revision < 1.1)
Run Portable Settings
else
Run Docked Settings
I'd be more curious as to what the game engine sees since we can't expect every game to be patched to be aware.
 
maybe like PS4 pro? as far as old game sees, its a normal PS4. So old switch games will see the new switch the same as the old one. No new features/performance will be available
 
On average, Switch games run just as well in handheld mode as they do in docked mode anyway. Whether it's due to a lower resolution (Breath of the Wild) or clever upscaling methods (Mario Odyssey), the handheld experience generally looks just as good if not better on top of that. As far as I'm concerned, chasing after "docked performance" in hh mode would be a giant waste of resources. The big achilles heel of the system in hh mode is not performance or resolution. It's battery life. Any graphics intensive game drains the system's battery in 2.5 hours. That's slightly worse than the battery drain of the old 3DS (with 3d enabled) and considerably worse than it was with my launch day PS Vita.

What I don't see is Nintendo giving you choices in the matter. They are not Sony or MS. Take the Switch's audio settings for example. There's stereo, mono and surround. No DD5.1. No DTS/DTS MA or what have you. As far as they are concerned, it's preferable to screw a whole bunch of users out of some necessary options over confusing even one person with options they may not understand or need. Maybe some games are gonna run a bit better like they did on New3DS, but that'll be about it.

I also don't see the system shrinking as they'd (hopefully) wanna maintain compatibility with all the peripherals. Those Joycons are outrageously expensive.
 
A shrink wouldn’t surprise me as I just purchased one so of course something better is coming.

But using 20nm for the SoC always seemed odd to me since it’s not a process with a future, most customers have moved on to 16nm, so I doubt TSMC is investing in improvements and maybe even shrinking water allocations for it. It just seems like NVIDIA had all these chips already or had already paid for the wafers and Nintendo took advantage of that.
20nm with the existing Tegra design would be a cheap way to test and see if it was successful and TSMC still has orders for various nodes.
Question going forward is do they take the Tegra evolution of TX2 Pascal or just scale the 20nm Maxwell Tegra, however one also need to consider the integrated GPU core architecture and does it make sense staying with X1 or move towards the equivalent of the Jetson TX2 (Pascal but still 256 cores) that is already designed for 16nm.
If going to 16nm and still with 256 cores, then one really needs to jump to the existing Pascal design IMO.
Jetson TX2 is now being replaced with the next generation in the more lucrative mobile DL segment with Xavier (512core Volta), so that would be a point of negotiation on TX2 cost for Nintendo.

I guess it may still be a bit too early though for a Jetson TX2 Pascal designed Switch, but it makes a lot of sense in many ways depending upon costs.
 
Do you think we may see docked performance while undocked?
Fairly difficult politics there, I think. One year after launch, you get a console twice as powerful. But only this revision. Other revisions won't get any faster, just cheaper. So the first purchases get lumbered with a naffy experience versus all the other buyers - In your face, early adopters! That's fine for hardware that gets frequent iterations and upgrades, where it's known, but it's lame for a console. That much of a performance advantage should be reserved for a mid-gen refresh a few years in, by and large.
 
There's stereo, mono and surround. No DD5.1. No DTS/DTS MA or what have you.
The Switch doesn't have Dolby Digital / DTS encoding for surround?
People using ARC from their TVs are doomed to use stereo?
 
No idea what ARC means to be honest. I just bought a new tv and one of its HDMI ports is labeled ARC, though. I'm not sure how exactly the Switch outputs multi channel surround. It certainly does it, but only via PCM. No straight DD/DTS bitstream. Sucks for me because I have an older decoder/receiver (much older to be perfectly honest) which cannot handle it. Since literally ever other device I've ever owned thus far can send out just about any signal I want, I haven't felt the need to replace it. Not doing that for the Switch either.
 
Fairly difficult politics there, I think. One year after launch, you get a console twice as powerful. But only this revision. Other revisions won't get any faster, just cheaper. So the first purchases get lumbered with a naffy experience versus all the other buyers - In your face, early adopters! That's fine for hardware that gets frequent iterations and upgrades, where it's known, but it's lame for a console. That much of a performance advantage should be reserved for a mid-gen refresh a few years in, by and large.

Yeah, true. Better battery life and screen would probably be the best, pain free upgrade Nintendo should offer.
 
20nm with the existing Tegra design would be a cheap way to test and see if it was successful and TSMC still has orders for various nodes.
Question going forward is do they take the Tegra evolution of TX2 Pascal or just scale the 20nm Maxwell Tegra, however one also need to consider the integrated GPU core architecture and does it make sense staying with X1 or move towards the equivalent of the Jetson TX2 (Pascal but still 256 cores) that is already designed for 16nm.
If going to 16nm and still with 256 cores, then one really needs to jump to the existing Pascal design IMO.
Jetson TX2 is now being replaced with the next generation in the more lucrative mobile DL segment with Xavier (512core Volta), so that would be a point of negotiation on TX2 cost for Nintendo.

I guess it may still be a bit too early though for a Jetson TX2 Pascal designed Switch, but it makes a lot of sense in many ways depending upon costs.
20nm and 16nmFF is similar in density and 20nm is cheaper per finished wafer. Can’t really see 16nm being a very desireable option from Nintendos perspective. 7nm gives, at high volume, the option of both drastically reducing die area while simultaneously improving performance and performance/W. That process is entering volume production pretty much now, and since the Switch is selling well, it may be a decent option to actually produce a custom SoC. If they do, performance predictions are difficult.
 
I think if there is a 16nm shrink, Nintendo won't improve performance or battery life. They'll maintain the battery file, but cut it's size and try to reduce any associate components they can. The first revision will be about reducing cost so they can hit a lower price point by the end of the year.
 
20nm and 16nmFF is similar in density and 20nm is cheaper per finished wafer. Can’t really see 16nm being a very desireable option from Nintendos perspective. 7nm gives, at high volume, the option of both drastically reducing die area while simultaneously improving performance and performance/W. That process is entering volume production pretty much now, and since the Switch is selling well, it may be a decent option to actually produce a custom SoC. If they do, performance predictions are difficult.
I assume you are talking quite a long time in future though, at least 2 years.
Costs would still be undesirable to jump to 7nm for quite awhile in context of Nintendo, just look at what the Switch is and what Nintendo went with, with 7nm not only the high costs per wafer but also a totally new Tegra-GPU type design would be needed, this would not be anytime soon.
Why did Nvidia jump from 20nm to 16nm for the TX2 with same CUDA core number?
It would be a reason for Nintendo as well, has double the bandwidth and quite a larger performance/efficiency for starters and importantly would be an existing replaced design Nintendo could jump on just like they did with the TX1 - keeps costs down.
TX2 gives up to 2x efficiency or 2x performance designed with dual operating roles compared to TX1 (in reality lets say 50-75% performance or efficiency gain with double the bandwidth), which fits the requirements of Switch without at this stage making a radical difference in design - context software solutions and game compatibility between Switch 1 and say a Switch 2 with some kind of TX2.
Sort of like the 2.5 upgrade we saw from Sony and Microsoft for the consoles, but the costs need to be right for Nintendo to do this and you could be right.

A post Pascal version (may not even be 7nm) at some point would be when they cease Switch 1 equivalent development compatibility, IMO anyway.
 
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I assume you are talking quite a long time in future though, at least 2 years.
Costs would still be undesirable to jump to 7nm for quite awhile in context of Nintendo, just look at what the Switch is and what Nintendo went with, with 7nm not only the high costs per wafer but also a totally new Tegra-GPU type design would be needed, this would not be anytime soon.
Why did Nvidia jump from 20nm to 16nm for the TX2 with same CUDA core number?
It would be a reason for Nintendo as well, has double the bandwidth and quite a larger performance/efficiency for starters and importantly would be an existing replaced design Nintendo could jump on just like they did with the TX1 - keeps costs down.
TX2 gives up to 2x efficiency or 2x performance designed with dual operating roles compared to TX1 (in reality lets say 50-75% performance or efficiency gain with double the bandwidth), which fits the requirements of Switch without at this stage making a radical difference in design - context software solutions and game compatibility between Switch 1 and say a Switch 2 with some kind of TX2.
Sort of like the 2.5 upgrade we saw from Sony and Microsoft for the consoles, but the costs need to be right for Nintendo to do this and you could be right.

A post Pascal version (may not even be 7nm) at some point would be when they cease Switch 1 equivalent development compatibility, IMO anyway.
You are quite correct. It’s not that there wouldn’t be technical benefits to moving to 16nmFF, it’s that it doesn’t seem to make much economic sense. It would simply cost more per chip, and even if Nintendo could save a bit on the construction due to lower power draw, that’s not enough to help them drop prices. I don’t think adding a bit of performance (and adding SKUs and associated issues) is a priority for them. Once there is a lithographic node that lets them tick more boxes, or substantially change the capabilities of the device. A mid-life kicker is a possibility of course, but I’d estimate that at least three years after launch, or 2020. At that point TSMC is likely to be very comfortable with 7nm, and Apple will be shifting their new chips to 5nm freeing up fab capacity.
 
How many companies are still ordering 20nm chips from TSMC?

In a recent DigitalFoundry video that discusses the possibility of Switch mid-gen upgrade, Richard Leadbetter suggests TSMC might want to end their 20nm waffer production.
That would eventually force Nintendo to order a new chip based on one of the newer processes.
Looking at TSMC's roadmap, I'd say this means planar 22nm or 16FFC at best.
 
It definitely was not popular and more niche than the other technology solutions they offer and would also influence pricing/ possibly library characterisation support/etc.
Looking back TSMC split it mostly as;
High end mobile chips; 28HP/28HPM, 20SoC, 16nm FF+, 10nm FF, 7nm FF/FF+
Below that; 28LP, 28HPL, 28HPC, 28HPC+, 22ULP, 16FFC, 12FFC
Car related; 40nm, 28nm, 16nm, 7nm.
IoT; 55nm, 40nm, 28nm, 16nm, 12nm

Edit:
Re-reading added FF+ to the 7nm high perf tech.
 
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It definitely was not popular and more niche than the other technology solutions they offer and would also influence pricing/ possibly library characterisation support/etc.
Looking back TSMC split it mostly as;
High end mobile chips; 28HP/28HPM, 20SoC, 16nm FF+, 10nm FF, 7nm FF/FF+
Below that; 28LP, 28HPL, 28HPC, 28HPC+, 22ULP, 16FFC, 12FFC
Car related; 40nm, 28nm, 16nm, 7nm.
IoT; 55nm, 40nm, 28nm, 16nm, 12nm

Edit:
Re-reading added FF+ to the 7nm high perf tech.
Although these things aren’t trivial, 20SoC probably wouldn’t be picked for a new design, something like 16FFC would probably be picked instead. However, for an existing design, staying on a (cheap) process can make a lot of sense. It saves on design expense, respins, wafer cost. Again, it’s not that a new process wouldn’t bring benefits technically, the question is whether a change in process can bring sufficient benefits in the marketplace to more than offset the costs involved, improving profitability over staying put.
I doubt it, until a process like 7nmFF+ (EUV reducing process steps required) has reached some maturity.
 
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