Forza 5 [XO] *large pics inside*

[Cyan]

This video from Forza shows how the car reacts to the shade.

I also noticed that the car casts shadows itself on the surface of the track, which is very visible in the bonnet view.

Maybe it's me, but I had never seen this before in a Forza game! The reason could well be that we are used to see our cars casting a shadow which is simply a box.

 

[djskribbles]

Obviously weather will have an affect on lap times and the best times will be on a dry track in ideal conditions, but I don't see what the issue is? This would not be the first time weather and night races would be in a racing simulator. It creates a whole new dynamic and gameplay experience and is something that happens in real-life racing, and this is a racing simulator after all

There's really no excuse when the competition offers such things. They can if they wanted to, but instead of adding weather and night races, they choose to focus their efforts elsewhere. In the case of Forza 5, it was probably due to a lack of time and having to have a product available for launch. I can almost guarantee you that Forza 6 will have them. Not to sound trollish, but Forza 5 to me just looks like a Forza 4.5 FullHD, which is understandable.

 

[Johnny Awesome]

Maybe so, but don't we want Forza 4.5 HD?

For launch it's fine.

 

[RudeCurve]

Wait, so first the texture is amazing and now its whos going to notice it anyway? Which is it?

It IS amazing except the repeating part that is on the backside of the mountain which you'll never see anyway...unless you're a retard driving backwards on the track at slow speed....

Regardless that should be easily fixed if necessary. They'd just have to create a new texture for the backside of the mountain that is homogenous ie tileable without recognizable patterns.

 

[DonaldDuck]

Well, the implementation of weather conditions and other effects as (for example) night races is without a doubt a desired feature for car racers, and Forza should not be an exception, but the question here is deeply technical and makes me want to have a more deep technical knowledge and more information related to the technology and performance of the game in question.

The discussion could be focused this way: You have F4, you have its level of detail for cars, assets, and its technology, you have a fixed resolution (720p) and a locked framerate (60fps). The first question is -and I take it for certain - can XBO run a 1080p upscaled version of exactly the assets, models and technologies of F4, mantaining 60 fps? I bet yes; XBO is obviously far more powerful than XTS and has enough room to host F4 upscaled.

That makes me wonder what is the best option that you, as a developer, has for releasing a launch game. Is the best just don´t increase the level of detail of assets, and instead try to improve the effects, native resolution and features? If you port F4 upscaled at1080p/60, you could choose the way of simply add postprocessing at will, dynamic lighting, etc. Night races, improved physics, day-night cicles fully dynamic, simulated rain or even snow. Go the feature way. Or, in the other hand, is better simply to rebuild assets and try to make a new version of F4, but with visual fidelity and detail upgraded in line with the new hardware capabilities, don´t making any improvement in features?

Maybe in future iterations both paths drive to the same conclussion, that is, new effects and features and better models and assets.

The problem with a new generation game conceived as a franchise is that the first iteration sets the benchmark against other versions will compare. If Turn10 reachs some degree of visual fidelity with F5, it is possible that the new assets and car models will not be compatible with an upgrade in features, and that the heavy computational cost of simulating realistic dynamic lighting and shadowing, the effects of rain in cars and scenary could make XBO crawl.

In that case, you´re pretty much fucked because mindshare is goint to put you at odds. Anything that you have to reduce to let enough space for new features will be pointed at with anger. Resolution, framerate, assets quality or density, etc. Rebuild courses will be a complicated and costly task for sure. If the hardware power doesn´t support you, the franchise could potentially be in a difficult position.

I wonder if it would be more sensible to add features with your old engine running happily and only in a second phase go the route of improving models, scenery as much as the hardware let you do so, without cutting features in the process.

I don´t know either if a particular asset could you prevent to do an upgrade in effects, lighting, postprocessing because of any particular technological reason. If that´s the case, maybe just the option of building a "feature rich, 1080p upscaled version of F4" in XBO would be simply impossible, not because of power, simply because the way assets are coded don´t let you use them. That´s something I´d like to know from the developers.

Obviosly they have choose the option of upgrading as much as possible the "load" fo assets, their polycount, the density, and only after that have improved the postprocess part, or just they don´t have a finished, stable build yet. But if that´s the case, then they are in a hurry, because the gold phase has to be terribly near from now, just a few weeks.

 

[Gubbi]

I'd like to have support for rain, but I'd much rather have more cars on track.

I don't care for night racing. At all - it's a Mickey Mouse feature.

Cheers

 

[RudeCurve]

I think night racing is cool but I don't need it for every track. PGR did rain and night tracks really well.

 

[Averagejoe]

No, you never 'finish' an artistic creation. You just decide to stop at some point. You can always add more. When the original design for F5 was finished, lets say that was completed 6 months ago, they'd look at adding improvements, features that they originally dropped, looking for enhancements, etc. You won't find any computer game finished months before release. They are always being worked on right up until the final days, and then even after thanks to post-release patching. Forza 5 has been in development for two years according to the developers, and not thrown together in the last year in a mad rush (what would Turn 10 have been working on between Forza 4 release and F5 if not F5??). There's no way lack of time will account for any shortcomings in hardware utilisation. Lack of final hardware, or driver issues, and the ilk could be holding the game back, but not lack of time to work on it.

Dude what other game release requires you to log into the internet to download part of the game on launch.?

In fact how many Forza games did that.? One thing is to have extra DLC another is having to go online to actually add part of your game.

All games need time no matter what hardware they are on,most launch games tend to be rush,is always like that Forza 5 apparently more so,sure they are always fixing things,but there is always a line you finish in certain time,and if a bug is there a patch fix it,but downloading only god knows how big part of the game on day 1 is something you don't see.

And scream rush,i would not take the word from any one working for MS or developer over actual fact been there,is their brand if it was mine i would surely deny any rush claims,after all who like to buy rush games.

The comparison seen actually show Forza 4 doing some things better than Forza 5 which i can't believe by the way.

 

[Averagejoe]

Night racing is something I miss from the original Forza on the original Xbox. :/ Weather is also a perfect addition if they can implement it properly. And if it is dynamic all the better.

What Rockster says is interesting though. They have alternate times of day in some FM4's tracks.

But it is important to realise that variable weather changes the way people are going to play the game and it is going to affect lap times profoundly. And if the weather is dynamic then this is going to have a deeper effect on lap times.

The only way for this to work correctly is if T10 saves the lap times and splits the database and the lap times depending on the weather when a certain time was registered. Like in real life, there are drivers who would make to the top in dry conditions but have a hard time adapting to a track in rain conditions.

I am certainly disappointed by the lack of weather and such, but it is a launch game and you must understand T10 too. This was their official statement for Forza 4 on this very matter.

http://gamingbolt.com/forza-4-does-not-include-weather-effect-or-night-racing

So having day/ night and weather effects will impact performance on Forza.

 

[BadTB25]

This video from Forza shows how the car reacts to the shade.

I also noticed that the car casts shadows itself on the surface of the track, which is very visible in the bonnet view.

Maybe it's me, but I had never seen this before in a Forza game! The reason could well be that we are used to see our cars casting a shadow which is simply a box.

Noticing some bad pop-ins and glitches on that rear view camera. Overall never been a sim racing fan even though I have Forza 1, 2 and 3 (didn't buy 4), I have to admit this game does look smooth.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Dude what other game release requires you to log into the internet to download part of the game on launch.?

Many games come with day 1 patches. The advance of online this gen means more devs can take advantage of the opportunity afforded to keep working past time to submit for printing. That is proof of nothing in itself.

And scream rush,i would not take the word from any one working for MS or developer over actual fact been there,is their brand if it was mine i would surely deny any rush claims,after all who like to buy rush games.

So what is your argument? F5 is rushed because it doesn't look as good as you imagine it should look? We have a T10 spokesperson tell us they were working on F5 before F4 released. Are you saying they are lying? What do you think T10 spent their time doing between F4's release and F5's release if not working on F5? Or are you saying 2 years development is rushing it?

If we believe T10 have spent 2 years on F5, then whatever download content they have on day one isn't due to rushing, and is more likely due to technical/production difficulties during development.

If we don't believe T10 have spent 2 years working on F5, we need a plausible exlpanation of what they have been doing over that time such that they are suddenly rushing F5 out the door in a year or whatever time frame you speculate they've spent on this title.

 

[Rockster]

Dude what other game release requires you to log into the internet to download part of the game on launch?

Both GT5 and now GT6 on PS3, which is an established engine on a mature platform.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-09-18-gran-turismo-6-will-have-a-large-day-one-patch

Perception being reality doesn't ring more true anywhere as it does on our beloved internet. I'm a fan of pretty much every platform because I know some of the folks who work on this stuff, but the online beat down I continue to see is really depressing.

 

[Nesh]

Both GT5 and now GT6 on PS3, which is an established engine on a mature platform.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-09-18-gran-turismo-6-will-have-a-large-day-one-patch

Perception being reality doesn't ring more true anywhere as it does on our beloved internet. I'm a fan of pretty much every platform because I know some of the folks who work on this stuff, but the online beat down I continue to see is really depressing.

GT5 didnt require you to download a patch in order to be able to play the game.

 

[DrJay24]

Both GT5 and now GT6 on PS3, which is an established engine on a mature platform.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-09-18-gran-turismo-6-will-have-a-large-day-one-patch

Perception being reality doesn't ring more true anywhere as it does on our beloved internet. I'm a fan of pretty much every platform because I know some of the folks who work on this stuff, but the online beat down I continue to see is really depressing.

Apple's and oranges. One is a typical MP balance, bug fix type patch you see in most games these days, while FM5 has a patch that finishes the SP game. You literally cannot finish FM5 SP without DLing the rest of the game.

 

[Arwin]

I don't know of many games, save online only, that require a first day patch. Forza 5 was basically designed to be always online, and requires a day one patch to become an offline game. One of the arguments was that they can't create/train the AI in time for launch. At least, that's the theory. In practice, I'm not sure I'm fully convinced that this is something they couldn't manage to solve on disc before launch, considering how long before the release they announced this was what they were going to do. There may still be DRM-like considerations, we don't know.

The onus is now on Microsoft to not have day one owners of an Xbox One and Forza 5 find themselves unable to play the game because the servers are overloaded or there are start-up issues. I don't know that there are other new DRM issues - the Xbox One has to be one-time activated online anyway I think before use?

That said, considering how hard it is to make a day-one game, obviously there's big advantages to being able to do a day-one download, and I can certainly understand they want to go for it. But it doesn't come without risk.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

One is a typical MP balance, bug fix type patch you see in most games these days

You don't know that. Indeed, if the patch is large than it includes assets like cars and tracks.

It's also still irrelevant to citing Forza 5's day one download as proof that the game was rushed and has had little time invested in it. There are plenty of reasons for that, all of which fit better with the developer's own statement that they've been working on F5 for 2 years.

 

[SlimJim]

You don't know that. Indeed, if the patch is large than it includes assets like cars and tracks.

It's also still irrelevant to citing Forza 5's day one download as proof that the game was rushed and has had little time invested in it. There are plenty of reasons for that, all of which fit better with the developer's own statement that they've been working on F5 for 2 years.

The developer stated:

"We are not making a launch game, we are making a game. At launch."

So yeah not rushed at all because something that is not even finished cannot be rushed.

 

[Rockster]

Apple's and oranges. One is a typical MP balance, bug fix type patch you see in most games these days, while FM5 has a patch that finishes the SP game. You literally cannot finish FM5 SP without DLing the rest of the game.

Of course it's not the same?! MP balance? Seriously? There wasn't any functional online mode at all without the patch. And I actually couldn't finish GT5 SP career until about 5 patches later and had to start over twice due to upgrade issues and save bugs. You don't even know what's in the GT6 patch. So it's ok to fix "typical" bugs which prevent you from enjoying or completing a game, but not ok to add content to enable the same. Maybe they should have spun it and said there would be free day one DLC, which added cars, tracks, and expanded career mode. LOL!

Oh how beautiful the world must be through those sky colored glasses. Patches provided/required for basic or improved functionality are completely different depending on who is releasing them. Thanks for helping me make a point. Apples and apples.

 

[Cyan]

So having day/ night and weather effects will impact performance on Forza.

I think they shouldn't impact performance in any meaningful way, especially the weather effects. Night racing though is an entirely different matter.

In my opinion, even the most powerful PC in the world couldn't run a game that tries to match the shadows cars cast in real life during the night. Every object occluding the light from the cars cast different shadows, and they are always moving. I wonder if we will ever see a racing game casting shadows correctly in a night race. Perhaps not in my lifetime, who knows, they seem to impact performance so hard.

News:

Forza 5 has the "robot" advantage, according to Dan Greenawalt:

http://www.techradar.com/news/gamin...-ve-got-the-microsoft-robot-advantage-1185343

 

[Cyan]

I don't know of many games, save online only, that require a first day patch. Forza 5 was basically designed to be always online, and requires a day one patch to become an offline game. One of the arguments was that they can't create/train the AI in time for launch. At least, that's the theory. In practice, I'm not sure I'm fully convinced that this is something they couldn't manage to solve on disc before launch, considering how long before the release they announced this was what they were going to do. There may still be DRM-like considerations, we don't know.

The onus is now on Microsoft to not have day one owners of an Xbox One and Forza 5 find themselves unable to play the game because the servers are overloaded or there are start-up issues. I don't know that there are other new DRM issues - the Xbox One has to be one-time activated online anyway I think before use?

That said, considering how hard it is to make a day-one game, obviously there's big advantages to being able to do a day-one download, and I can certainly understand they want to go for it. But it doesn't come without risk.

They admitted this hours ago, the changes the console is going through affected certain decisions and features of the game.

http://www.techradar.com/news/gamin...changes-for-forza-5-confirms-director-1185435

After the failed take-off of Microsoft's always-on Xbox One proposal, it felt like people just weren't ready for completely cloud-reliant future. It also made us wonder how it would affect the games already well into development at the time.

Forza 5 is one of the big titles that will be launching with the Xbox One, so we asked creative director Dan Greenawalt: did Turn 10 have to make some big changes?

"Yes but not architecturally," said Greenawalt. "It's not like it was going to be connected every millisecond because people's internet connections simply aren't that way. People's internet connections drop and don't drop based on Wi-Fi and what have you. There are lots of interruptions."

"So we already knew that the game was going to be unconnected for some amount of time," he added. "Yes of course it meant changes. We had to test for boundary cases, we had to test for different amounts of security.
Defending the cloud

According to Greenawalt, the cloud has been getting a lot of bad rap of late but isn't as much of a terrifying prospect for gaming as many people seem to think.

"I think people have been misjudging what the cloud is good for, and if they just gave it two more thought they would understand what it would be good for," he said.

"If you think the cloud is for synchronous computation, the infrastructure of the world isn't prepared for that yet. We don't have enough broadband to all of our houses that's fast enough that you could count on synchronous cloud power.

"That's no the way you use the cloud. The way you use the cloud is by having it bring to bear a massive amount of computation information every second or every half second. But asynchronously is what is comes down to."

This is demonstrated in Forza 5's Drivatar feature, which lets you race against other people even if they're not online at the time. It's all based on their style of driving. But these sorts of ideas are still in their infancy.
"The idea behind Drivatar could apply to any game, a first person shooter. It's big data," said Greenawalt. "It is correlating masses and masses of data from millions"

"But here's the thing – it's an undiscovered country. It's a new place, and when you bring to bear the most creative minds in the industry into that space, they're going to out-think me of course."