PlayStation 4 (codename Orbis) technical hardware investigation (news and rumours)

[Strange]

For Ustreaming a Gaikai (or RemotePlay) session, the easiest way is to push the responsibility to the client since the Ustream UI also shows a player video chat window -- assuming the network is robust and the client is powerful enough.

Yes, my expectation is at launch, we will "only" get a subset of what's announced. The OS may not multitask everything pre-emptively and freely. Perhaps like Vita, there will be some restrictions for various reasons.

I don't think ustream will be able to handle multiviewer with remoteplay. Latencies and ustream server requirements are too much unless it's a game that allows for more than one second of input lag.
Gaikai works under a complete different infrastructure and is supposed to optimize for latencies so I cannot comment on.

As a streamer, most streaming sites introduce somewhere between 5~10 seconds of lag. Point to point is the way to go.

I don't expect the remote play upload to be gigantic.
Somewhere along the lines of 5~8Mbps would probably be fine so most people that have decent internet connections in decent areas should be ok.
Many streamers get away with 500kbps ~ 1mbps and are still "watchable".

(however I have seen stuff from ~15 years ago that allowed people to phone in and play a game on broadcast TV with their phone lines and touchtones.)

 

[patsu]

I was just answering Love_in_Rio's hypothetical question.

People like me would use RemotePlay in bed, or may be in the restroom

I am unlikely to Ustream from these spots.

It's an interesting question nonetheless, as thinking through the answer can help separate the system in a modular fashion.

 

[Love_In_Rio]

Good article on the subject of cloud-gaming on next-gen consoles:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-the-cloud-is-coming-home

 

[Averagejoe]

Good article on the subject of cloud-gaming on next-gen consoles:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-the-cloud-is-coming-home

What if the PS4 use the hardware at hand for the first 4 or 5 years,and then they try to move people to Gaikai service so that sony doesn't need to change the hardware to be able to deliver better graphics.?

Would that be possible without having to actually buy anything else.?

 

[Brad Grenz]

Gaikai WAN peer streaming is interesting but the experience may not be consistent as you mentioned. It would imply 1 spectator and 1 player by default, which is more consuming than straight RemotePlay -- unless the host can't watch his helper play. Has it been done before ? I need to rewatch their presentation to see what I have missed.

To hand off a game session, it would be like transfarring, or "resume PS3 game on Vita". The game saved states (a save point) are transferred to another machine (with the game) to play. A Gaikai server sounds robust enough.

The host player is still just watching the direct output from his console to his TV. It isn't an additional stream. Handing over control only requires the game to switch from using the inputs of a local controller to a virtual one sent over IP just like Remote Play uses.

Sony described three distinct streaming scenarios:

Gaikai - cloud hosted games used for instant demos and potentially backwards compatibility with the entire PlayStation back catalog eventually.

Peer streaming - games rendered on a players own PS4 with real time video compression used to enable Remote Play to a Vita, spectating by PSN friends, including the ability to grant remote control of your local game to another user.

Video sharing - using third party services you video stream of local gameplay can be retransmitted with a slight delay via Ustream or other similar services. The last 15 minutes of game play video is also always being cached locally so you can instantly trim, edit and save clips for posterity or upload to a site like Facebook.

 

[London Geezer]

I was just answering Love_in_Rio's hypothetical question.

People like me would use RemotePlay in bed, or may be in the restroom

I am unlikely to Ustream from these spots.

It's an interesting question nonetheless, as thinking through the answer can help separate the system in a modular fashion.

Jesus, don't you guys take breaks? would you really play on your big TV for hours, and the times you need to go to the bathroom would you need to keep playing on the Vita?
That's like a Wall-e kind of scenario where people are glued to the screen 24/7 and just get fat fat fat

 

[Arwin]

More likely the TV wouldn't be available or we would only have time to play in bed for a bit, or prefer to sit in the garden in the shade, whatever.

 

[Lalaland]

Jesus, don't you guys take breaks? would you really play on your big TV for hours, and the times you need to go to the bathroom would you need to keep playing on the Vita?
That's like a Wall-e kind of scenario where people are glued to the screen 24/7 and just get fat fat fat

I'd say we're more intrigued by those times we'd rather gouge our own eyes out than watch another minute of 'reality' tv. The kids/wife/partner can continue contributing to the downfall of western civilisation by watching that while I happily numb myself with PS4 like gaming on my Vita (now all I need is a Vita....). As for gaming 'on the throne' as the most peaceful, contemplative spot in my entire house I can hardly think of a better spot for some quiet gaming time ;D

 

[Love_In_Rio]

I'd say we're more intrigued by those times we'd rather gouge our own eyes out than watch another minute of 'reality' tv. The kids/wife/partner can continue contributing to the downfall of western civilisation by watching that while I happily numb myself with PS4 like gaming on my Vita (now all I need is a Vita....). As for gaming 'on the throne' as the most peaceful, contemplative spot in my entire house I can hardly think of a better spot for some quiet gaming time ;D

LOL. Good points there. Playing "Flower" or "Journey" "on the throne" must be some very contemplative exprience in fact.

 

[Bagel seed]

Jesus, don't you guys take breaks? would you really play on your big TV for hours, and the times you need to go to the bathroom would you need to keep playing on the Vita?
That's like a Wall-e kind of scenario where people are glued to the screen 24/7 and just get fat fat fat

Bathroom.. eh. Think of all the shit particles floating around!

By the deck, by the pool, would be much nicer

 

[Love_In_Rio]

Bathroom.. eh. Think of all the shit particles floating around!

By the deck, by the pool, would be much nicer

Thinking in particles and CU physics in your vita...

 

[patsu]

The host player is still just watching the direct output from his console to his TV. It isn't an additional stream. Handing over control only requires the game to switch from using the inputs of a local controller to a virtual one sent over IP just like Remote Play uses.

My bad. In that scenario, it should/will be less demanding than say... Watching BR and RemotePlaying in the background.

Handing control over to another WAN peer player is the tricky part. The lag would be terrible. If they simply implement WAN RemotePlay "as is", then it may be plagued by usability issues.

What may be more useful is their "Director" concept. As a spectator, you can drop health potions, items and guide your friend out of a level.

Sony described three distinct streaming scenarios:

Gaikai - cloud hosted games used for instant demos and potentially backwards compatibility with the entire PlayStation back catalog eventually.

Peer streaming - games rendered on a players own PS4 with real time video compression used to enable Remote Play to a Vita, spectating by PSN friends, including the ability to grant remote control of your local game to another user.

Video sharing - using third party services you video stream of local gameplay can be retransmitted with a slight delay via Ustream or other similar services. The last 15 minutes of game play video is also always being cached locally so you can instantly trim, edit and save clips for posterity or upload to a site like Facebook.

In the presentation, spectating and directing are lumped under Sharing.

RemotePlay is essentially purely peer-to-peer Gaikai to Vita (at this point). LAN RemotePlay is doable. It's hard to take peer-to-peer WAN Gaikai seriously though.

 

[patsu]

Jesus, don't you guys take breaks? would you really play on your big TV for hours, and the times you need to go to the bathroom would you need to keep playing on the Vita?
That's like a Wall-e kind of scenario where people are glued to the screen 24/7 and just get fat fat fat

Take a break from work or from gaming ?

I do in-bed gaming all the time. "Super Bowl" gaming is not my eh... cup of tea but I do know people do it sometimes. I believe in the articles that claim X% of the population use iPad in the toilet.

Poolside gaming, by-the-garden gaming is fine too, unfortunately I haven't seen any numbers on them. If I were at a pool, it is highly unlikely for me to just look at Vita you know. Toilet time is private time; if Sony release Dark/Demon's Souls on Vita, then yes, you can expect me to play from my throne.

 

[onQ]

I have a question about the ring buffers.

if the ring buffers are being created in the memory by the CPU for the GPU & CPU shared memory address space would that include the CPU's 4MB L2 cache?

 

[3dilettante]

There's a coherent bus between the GPU and the CPU section of an APU, so the answer is likely that they can be, but given the capacity of the cache and how little we know about the usage model and how quickly the buffers can be filled/emptied, some or all of them could spill to memory or deliberately stream out.

 

[ShadowRunner]

....Toilet time is private time; if Sony release Dark/Demon's Souls on Vita, then yes, you can expect me to play from my throne.

Because the game is scary enough to make you crap yourself?

About remote play, do we think it may be possible to support on mobile devices with low latency?

This got me thinking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n1nr9C6JMk

If they could get remote play on PS4 streaming to smartphones they could just release a cheep universal mount accessory like this and have VR available for everyone. Streaming would allow for far better graphics than just the mobile and with 1080p phones like Xperia Z out this year would be high enough resolution as well. Only potential issue i see would be latency but with Vita remote play being integral to PS4 surely they will have reduced it to a minimum already.

 

[Bagel seed]

If they could get remote play on PS4 streaming to smartphones they could just release a cheep universal mount accessory like this and have VR available for everyone. Streaming would allow for far better graphics than just the mobile and with 1080p phones like Xperia Z out this year would be high enough resolution as well. Only potential issue i see would be latency but with Vita remote play being integral to PS4 surely they will have reduced it to a minimum already.

Quite a novel idea, but not very immersive I'd imagine. The screen would be so small and the aspect ratio is all messed up.

Sony just needs to do their own Oculus Rift, but with 720p screens. Just a matter of time I think, like by 2015.

 

[Cyan]

Some news...

Someone carried out a survey about what Japanese think about the PS4:

http://kotaku.com/5989103/heres-what-japanese-people-are-saying-about-the-ps4

NVidia aren't powering a next gen console but their physics software, PhysX & APEX, will be present in PlayStation 4 games. The company announced its support for the PS4 with the introduction of new PhysX and APEX SDKs for developers.

http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2013/03/07/nvidia-announces-physx-and-apex-support-for-ps4/

The news comes alongside other news regarding development support announcements for the PS4, including game lighting software maker Geomerics, and in game AI tools called xaitment. Geomerics are used in Battlefield 3 for instance.

 

[Grall]

Is Nvidia angling to win more PC marketshare by hoping console game devs ingrain physx deeply into their games, whilst still holding physx exclusive to their own cards in PC market space?

I wouldn't count it beyond them to do something like that. Proprietary was only a bad thing when it was 3dfx who was trying to corner the gaming market...

 

[ShadowRunner]

Quite a novel idea, but not very immersive I'd imagine. The screen would be so small and the aspect ratio is all messed up.

Sony just needs to do their own Oculus Rift, but with 720p screens. Just a matter of time I think, like by 2015.

The optics provide a 100 degree fov, not sure why you would think it would look tiny. This is pretty much exactly the same as the Oculus Rift, just allowing you to use your own screen to make it cheep. The Rift actually uses the same screens found in mobiles with the same aspect ratio, its just integrated into the device itself. With a 1080p screen it would hold up well against 2x720p displays