Console Maker's OS

[3dilettante]

It's 500 MB more than what the Xbox One reserves. It's not that bad for the first wave of software, much of which was likely developed in tighter confines.

Maybe they'll budge when Microsoft does, just in case some really good idea comes along that requires 2.8 GB of memory and neither platform wants to be the one that committed itself out of a matching checkbox.

Everything else this gen has been a dribbling tit for tat, so why not this?

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Maybe they'll budge when Microsoft does, just in case some really good idea comes along that requires 2.8 GB of memory and neither platform wants to be the one that committed itself out of a matching checkbox.

I was going to mention this. I think there is a high stakes game of 'chicken' going on with regards to OS RAM reservations and how much RAM might be needed x years down the line. I think if one company drops the RAM reservation back, the other will too. But nobody wants to go first. In case the other company has something in mind.

 

[Deleted member 86764]

Ok, "tombstoning" is Microsoft parlance for saving certain states of an application's runtime condition. I've not read anything (or observed anything in the PS4's actual behaviour) that suggests OrbisOS does this so why worry about something that may not exist. Even if it does, the states preserved are tiny compared the entire RAM footprint of the app that was running.

We're descending into lunacy and nonsense territory.

So tombstoning wasn't the correct terminology, I apologise for that. I refer to saving lots of RAM for apps that aren't even available.

I hardly think Sony and Microsoft are playing chicken with their memory reservations. I'd hazard a guess that Microsoft are making better use of their non-gaming memory, at least they've got that functionality available to some extent now. Whether or not that functionality is being used that much, only Microsoft know for sure.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

But expecting Sony to be as experienced in OS and application design as Microsoft is as unrealistic as expecting Microsoft to be as experienced in hardware design and manufacture as Sony.

They don't have to be experienced in OS to know what gaming features their online service should have. They had MS to copy. Any new product should be starting from what everyone else has done plus a little creative thinking to gauge what'll be new. For example, Sony created a games console with no prior experience, trumping those with over a decade's experience. OSes are complicated, but Sony were successful with PS1 and PS2 and did a good job with PS3 apart from the awkward online aspects. How do we reconcile their successes with claiming PS3 doesn't have enough RAM for voice chat after reducing the RAM reservation despite people calling out for voice chat? It's not inability to code an efficient OS and services (although reported reservations for various features like trophies were pretty mind-boggling), but an inability to understand their audience and plan ahead IMO. This 3.5 GB smacks of that. They aren't at all sure what they're doing, so they're playing it ludicrously safe. Heck, they knew the OS ahead of schedule anyhow as they're using FreeBSD. They'd know what the OS takes for their requirement, can build up a few apps, and a get a feel for long term needs well before they had hardware to worry about. Heck, we know PS4's OS and services were going to run in a 4GB console, so they must have been aiming for something like 512 MB, 1 GB tops! 8GB becomes an option and they just leave it sitting there unused.

 

[tuna]

Microsoft developed DOS from CP/M, Windows 2-3 (WIN16), Windows 95-98-XP-Vista-7-8 (WIN32), Windows NT (on x86, Solaris, DEC Alpha), PocketPC / HandheldPC (x86, MIPS, SH-3, ARM architectures) and developed applications on their own operating systems and other peoples. They are, without argument, the single most experienced operating system company in the world.

Yeah, but Sony has more experience doing games os.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

They don't have to be experienced in OS to know what gaming features their online service should have.

There's a huge disconnect between identifying a problem (the requirement) and the actual code (memory/cpu) and memory footprint required to execute the solution. Talent is important, creativity too, but experience is huge. Microsoft has unparalleled levels of experience from their OS and applications development, from basic UI to complicated client/server solutions.

They had MS to copy. Any new product should be starting from what everyone else has done plus a little creative thinking to gauge what'll be new.

You're focussing on features and not software engineering and the two are very different. Bullet-pointing essential features for a games console is something that I would expect many B3D users could do competently. Actually delivering OS-level solutions for those features is something else.

They'd know what the OS takes for their requirement, can build up a few apps, and a get a feel for long term needs well before they had hardware to worry about. Heck, we know PS4's OS and services were going to run in a 4GB console, so they must have been aiming for something like 512 MB, 1 GB tops! 8GB becomes an option and they just leave it sitting there unused.

I think we're talking about fundamentally different things. As someone who writes a lot of code, I'm looking at the challenges Sony face as a software engineer. Unless Sony have got some top tier OS and application developers (and based on my use of their products, they don't), you can not expect Sony to be in the same league in delivering software solutions as Microsoft. I would always expect their solutions to be less optimal than Microsoft. Less optimal on processor resources and memory.

To be clear, this is very different to writing a low-level API for game developers - something Sony appear very good at. There are very few margins of error in an efficient operating system, which is why there are very few widely-used operating systems.

 

[3dilettante]

They had MS to copy.

Actually, I think it can be argued they still do, and they did.

For example, Sony created a games console with no prior experience, trumping those with over a decade's experience. OSes are complicated, but Sony were successful with PS1 and PS2 and did a good job with PS3 apart from the awkward online aspects.

Vastly different levels of functionality and complexity would be one thing.
What was demanded of what was formerly an entertainment appliance changed with the introduction of general storage and device functionality that didn't start and end with the insertion/ejection of a cartridge or disc.
Sony's PS3 software improvement curve was slow, and Xbox One's update rate is blistering compared to the PS4. Even if we were to assume the Xbox One's system software started from a lower point, which I don't think we can, Sony is plodding along with updates like "added support for a headset".

8GB becomes an option and they just leave it sitting there unused.

It's probably better to not commit the final gigabytes until later. If they're going to be burned by some unexpected killer function that requires memory they've already un-reserved, best do it with a few years left in a generation instead of 8.

 

[Deleted member 86764]

Sony probably have followed Microsoft's software to an extent. The 360 was a damn good machine. Luckily for Sony they weren't able to imitate Microsoft's Xbox One strategy - it's worked out quite well for them.

 

[DrJay24]

Also, the fact that Sony has been using BSD based OS for two generations now says something.

That they are smart and don't re-invent the wheel?

 

[betan]

That they are smart and don't re-invent the wheel?

Yes, because they don't have their own OS or kernel to build upon.

 

[(((interference)))]

Those 2-3GB are probably reserved for the devkit debugging tools, 12GB PS4 devkits don't exist yet.

I assume when they'll release 12GB PS4 devkits, games could have at least 7GB of usable ram. Maybe even 7.5GB.

From what I was told last year about the reservation, there were two modes available, standard which is the 5GB of physical memory. And large which has 6GB of physical memory, but this is only available to developers for development purposes (You can't release a game that uses 6GB)

As to why all that memory was needed, that was a bit of a mystery.

But a suggestion was that besides the obvious browser and apps, VShell (which seems to be the internal name for the OS) is pretty expensive memory wise and uses a lot of embedded dynamic HTML5 content

It was also suggested, that there were concerns that they wouldn't be able to match MS on potential features (that would be popular with the userbase) if they started off with a smaller reservation. As the small PS3 reserve really hamstrung them during its life.

And we know that XB1 had at least 1GB of the 3GB being completely unused (merely reserved for potential future usage) at launch.

So I think it's almost like a kind of a stand off between MS and Sony with both waiting on the other to reduce the system reservation, so they can follow suit.
Or alternatively, so they can then release their ram-gobbling, killer feature that the competition has no hopes of matching (now they've given RAM back to devs)

 

[Rangers]

So I think it's almost like a kind of a stand off between MS and Sony with both waiting on the other to reduce the system reservation, so they can follow suit.
Or alternatively, then release their ram-gobbling, killer feature that the competition has no hopes of matching now they've given RAM back to devs

Heh, nice summation

I'd also say, these consoles have so much RAM, I wonder how much more can really be used to improve visuals and such. For example. X1 reserves 3/8 37.5%. A similar percentage reservation on X360 would have been 192 MB! That would have been a massive handicap. But somehow, I dont feel like 37.5% is acting as such a handicap this time around, or that there is some massive pressure to lift it. These consoles are very roomy, maybe you could even argue overspecced, regards the RAM. If they had 4GB, they would have been squeezed.

Sort of like how you're not going to see an AMD HD7770 or 7850 with 6 or 8GB of RAM in the PC space, because it would just be silly. Those amounts are reserved for the very powerful cards to match.

 

[Deleted member 86764]

Or alternatively, so they can then release their ram-gobbling, killer feature that the competition has no hopes of matching

Well, I'm looking forward to see a feature on a games machine that justifies anything like 2-3GB reservation and needs to run concurrently with games. I shall wait with bated breath.

 

[Lalaland]

<wild speculation>Perhaps some of that RAM is for holding another framebuffer for 3D?</wild speculation>

 

[TheWretched]

For the moment... I couldn't really care, to be honest. I'd rather have them reserve more than needed now, instead of not getting a cool feature in the future.

And... show me a game that would've given you a better experience with a gigabyte of RAM more than now...

 

[Deleted member 86764]

I wonder if both manufacturers are analysing usage patterns of people, like which applications are opened/used while in a game, does the game continue to be played afterwards, etc. Then they're able to adjust at a later date.

Seems to a little more logical to measure this stuff than to simply wait and see what the other is going to do with their RAM.

Wasn't it suggested a while back that some of the extra memory was used to store the last 15mins of gameplay?

 

[tuna]

Yes, because they don't have their own OS or kernel to build upon.

Is this something negative?

 

[tuna]

Also, regarding the cross game chat on PS3, I think it was impossible to implement this because the game "owns" the sound output. To engineer around that would be a massive headache (see pulseaudio in linux/bsd for example).

 

[tuna]

Also, MS' super experienced OS developers created security holes like this: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/...ne-security-hole-discovered-by-five-year-old/

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Also, regarding the cross game chat on PS3, I think it was impossible to implement this because the game "owns" the sound output. To engineer around that would be a massive headache (see pulseaudio in linux/bsd for example).

Some OS notifications make a sound, trophies for example.