NGGP: NextGen Garbage Pile (aka: No one reads the topics or stays on topic) *spawn*

[MrFox]

Basically if there is nothing else other than what is known from the current leaks from VGLeaks, then Orbis is going to cost significantly more.

There's much more than the main SoC in the price of the console. MS doesn't pay the same price for components because they have to source almost all of them, and they have additional licenses to pay. Not sure how much this adds up, but it's definitely not a wash for a similar product.

Sony makes their own components, including the camera sensors. They make their own bluray drive, their own lasers, passive components, batteries, many chips and communication parts. They even have their own fabs for the main chips of the PS3. They are among the creators of bluray, they have less royalties to pay to anyone.

Microsoft must pay for Kinect. They need third parties for many components, including the powerful IR light source, two sensors including one custom, batteries, they have to license the PrimeSense technology, because MS didn't invent the Kinect. They must pay for a third party bluray drive. It looks like the billions that have been invested by the proponents of HDDVD was wasted (if the goal was to cause both to fail) and MS will now have to give money to Sony for every console sold if they want a bluray drive.

(just trying to get into the mood of the title here)

 

[Rangers]

There's much more than the main SoC in the price of the console. MS doesn't pay the same price for components because they have to source almost all of them, and they have additional licenses to pay. Not sure how much this adds up, but it's definitely not a wash for a similar product.

Sony makes their own components, including the camera sensors. They make their own bluray drive, their own lasers, passive components, batteries, many chips and communication parts. They even have their own fabs for the main chips of the PS3. They are among the creators of bluray, they have less royalties to pay to anyone.

Microsoft must pay for Kinect. They need third parties for many components, including the powerful IR light source, two sensors including one custom, batteries, they have to license the PrimeSense technology, because MS didn't invent the Kinect. They must pay for a third party bluray drive. It looks like the billions that have been invested by the proponents of HDDVD was wasted (if the goal was to cause both to fail) and MS will now have to give money to Sony for every console sold if they want a bluray drive.

Just like Sony pays MS to put Windows on it's PC's?

Anyways the Blu Ray fee isn't much and goes to multiple companies, but sure you are right, Sony won, even if a dying market. Doubt MS spent much of anything supporting HDDVD though. To me their unwillingness to build it into 360's for video playback at the height of the disc format wars proved they were not willing to go all that far to support the format (and they were right imo, discs are dying). Anyways HDDVD still had a shot, it just came down to that one studio (cant even remember which) that went Blu Ray at the end.

Not sure about the cost stuff in the rest of your post. Sony doesn't have a price advantage PS3 vs 360 so I doubt it means much. Anyways when MS is charging $110 for Kinect it's only profit.

(just trying to get into the mood of the title here)

i feel ya

 

[Scott_Arm]

Salsa Mysterioso

Much better.

 

[Rangers]

Basically if there is nothing else other than what is known from the current leaks from VGLeaks, then Orbis is going to cost significantly more.

Regards,
SB

unsure.

if the gpu's are cape verde vs pitcairn, then that's a significant difference in fave cape verde. however it seems like the durango gpu is so customized at this point (and relatively more powerful than cape verde) i'm not even sure. those customizations will cost both silicon and R&D.

the ram, 4gb gddr5 is indeed much more expensive than 8gb ddr3. $30 more expensive at my guesstimate, which probably translates into a lot more of the retail price.

however a 32mb edram die could offset much or all of that 30 dollars i would assume.

orbis will still have to deal with hotter gddr5, more cooling=more expense, etc. possibly a bigger/faster/more expensive bus structure, all that bandwidth aint free.

so um yea, where once i thought durango would be significantly cheaper than orbis, now i am not quite so sure.

 

[patsu]

Ah, my sauce is telling me Sony may not use GDDR5.

 

[Rangers]

Ah, my sauce is telling me Sony may not use GDDR5.

Sure, want to bet on that?

 

[MrFox]

Ah, my sauce is telling me Sony may not use GDDR5.

interesting... my tea leaves reading skills have now confirmed this information.

 

[bkilian]

Microsoft must pay for Kinect. They need third parties for many components, including the powerful IR light source, two sensors including one custom, batteries, they have to license the PrimeSense technology, because MS didn't invent the Kinect.

Not entirely true. Kinect V1 is prime sense, yes, but MS owns a 3D camera company (using time of flight) that wasn't quite ready for mass production when Kinect was being developed. It's possible a V2 would use that Microsoft owned IP.

 

[Bagel seed]

Sony going for 8 GB.

 

[Rangers]

Sony going for 8 GB.

you wish

would be funny if ps4/720 directly switched memory topologies, to see everybody switch sides

 

[MrFox]

Not entirely true. Kinect V1 is prime sense, yes, but MS owns a 3D camera company (using time of flight) that wasn't quite ready for mass production when Kinect was being developed. It's possible a V2 would use that Microsoft owned IP.

Okay, that changes things quite a bit
Didn't think about that one, why source parts when you can buy the company that makes them...

 

[Averagejoe]

From the hardware cost perspective and hence BOM and hence sacrifices needed to be made for performance within budget, it is the same.

Rumor - Orbis will come with: 1x Dualshock, 1x Move Controller, 2x Cameras. Out of the box.
Rumor - Durango will come with: 1x Xbox controller, 1x Kinect device. Out of the box.


Regards,
SB

But that is the problem i never read that move or the dual camera would be build in,it was say that those were controller available for the dev kit which is different..

The 720 is say to use 3GB of ram because of Kinect and other apps,you haven't hear that about the PS4,in fact the OS foot print is say to be 512mb,we are talking about sony who had an OS as big as 96MB on 2006 vs the 360 32MB one,to hear something like that is quite shocking,is clear MS is aiming at something else.

 

[Averagejoe]

Basically if there is nothing else other than what is known from the current leaks from VGLeaks, then Orbis is going to cost significantly more.

Regards,
SB

I don't think so,the PS3 was $100 more than a premium 360 back on 2006,while having blu-ray,the PS3 has go down in price $300 dollars from its original price the xbox 360 just $100.

Sony been a hardware company at heart,can beat MS not only in production but also in cost they can pack more expensive hardware and still deliver a cheaper price than MS without over kill.

The PS3 was just and extreme example it was more expensive and better build that the 360 in almost every aspect,if the PS3 would have DVD from launch,the PS3 would be now $149 tops if not less.

MS is better than sony OS wise,sony is better than MS dealing with hardware,the PS3 is a testament to that is on its 3rd model,while arriving 1 year after the 360 MS is on its second.

 

[Acert93]

Has anyone bothered to take what we have of the rumors and then ran it past the rendering pipeline and then also considered what parts visually benefit the most from improved performance?

e.g. having 30x more triangle throughput may be nice on paper if your competition only has 10x, but what impact does that have on the final image.

I will toss this out: post processing seems to be an area where major, major wins can be had on game visuals imo. More so than the incremental differences in texture resolution, poly budgets, etc that are being discussed. Just my opinion.

Ps- It is also my opinion we don't know enough about the *final* specs and the architecture to say much as this point. A lot of you are arguing over details secured on shifting sand.

 

[Rangers]

I don't think so,the PS3 was $100 more than a premium 360 back on 2006,while having blu-ray,the PS3 has go down in price $300 dollars from its original price the xbox 360 just $100.

Sony been a hardware company at heart,can beat MS not only in production but also in cost they can pack more expensive hardware and still deliver a cheaper price than MS without over kill.

The PS3 was just and extreme example it was more expensive and better build that the 360 in almost every aspect,if the PS3 would have DVD from launch,the PS3 would be now $149 tops if not less.

MS is better than sony OS wise,sony is better than MS dealing with hardware,the PS3 is a testament to that is on its 3rd model,while arriving 1 year after the 360 MS is on its second.

but now both machines have standardized on about the same price.

when sony didn't drop the price with the super slim, it was pretty telling. that was a great chance for them to get in a blow, pass 360 worldwide, and they passed it up.

 

[Scott_Arm]

but now both machines have standardized on about the same price.

when sony didn't drop the price with the super slim, it was pretty telling. that was a great chance for them to get in a blow, pass 360 worldwide, and they passed it up.

Passing your competitor in worldwide sales isn't a great idea if you're cutting your profits. Gamers sit at home counting consoles. Companies sit at work counting dollars.

 

[MrFox]

Has anyone bothered to take what we have of the rumors and then ran it past the rendering pipeline and then also considered what parts visually benefit the most from improved performance?

e.g. having 30x more triangle throughput may be nice on paper if your competition only has 10x, but what impact does that have on the final image.

I will toss this out: post processing seems to be an area where major, major wins can be had on game visuals imo. More so than the incremental differences in texture resolution, poly budgets, etc that are being discussed. Just my opinion.

Someone recently talked about the possibility of a bokeh engine in hardware for depth of field. If MS have that it could be a major win depending on the style of the game. It's one of the biggest visual impact for a cinematic look, so is good motion blur which seems difficult to do well. I'm wondering about the Sony first parties though, they did some great things with the cell, so if they had ideas for post processing surely they passed it on to Sony and they considered them for the PS4. Maybe the additional CU is all that's needed without too much investment.

 

[B Real]

Passing your competitor in worldwide sales isn't a great idea if you're cutting your profits. Gamers sit at home counting consoles. Companies sit at work counting dollars.

That's a very good point. I'm looking forward to the 20th, looks like Feb is turning out to be a good month for me I'm hoping to get a grant to go back to school and my meeting is on the 19th

 

[Rangers]

Passing your competitor in worldwide sales isn't a great idea if you're cutting your profits. Gamers sit at home counting consoles. Companies sit at work counting dollars.

did you even understand the context of my post?

what you say is true but tangential at best.

 

[B Real]

did you even understand the context of my post?

what you say is true but tangential at best.

I would wager they're only a couple of million behind and they've been selling at a better pace than the Xbox WW since release. Profit is probably more important that being in second at this point.