News & Rumors: Xbox One (codename Durango)

[Cyan]

The jury is still out on whether hindsight is going to say Microsoft made a bad bet.
We won't know until devs really get into exploiting the next gen platforms and the tools and general knowledge mature.

The decision to forego a GDDR5 bus might have given them 10-20 Watts of power they didn't need to dissipate, were free to dedicate to other things, or some additional leeway in how the chip clocks or yields.
Conversely, having that kind of power hanging around your neck might make some choices less tenable.




I think using that particular urban legend is more informative about the person using it than what they applied it to.
It's frequently a sign of a "I personally don't know the reasons for X, so it must not be necessary" thought process.

Microsoft are pretty confident about the Xbox One and their hardware choices. More fuel to the fire....

Major Nelson mentioned a few things on Reddit supporting Albert Penello's theory about the capabilities of Xbox One hardware. He wished the truth to come out in the future.

As I said above, Albert is one of the most amazing people I work with - that's why I invited him on my podcast a few weeks ago.I jab him a bit about posting on 'GAF (fact: they would not approve my account of there) but he's smart and driven. He's also right: We have some of smartest programmers in the world working on Xbox One. I am very much looking forward to the next few months (and beyond) as the truth comes out.

Read more at -it has some other replies from Hryb-:

http://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/comments/1lt48f/albert_penello_there_is_no_way_were_giving_up_a/cc2nezu

 

[Cyan]

It can't be on top: the chip is labelled as being diffused in Taiwan. They'd have to sneak their alleged 22nm IBM SOI GPU under it, unless we want to add international trade dispute to our rumored Durango feature set.


I knew that MS Paint looked familiar.

:smile: You made me laugh with your Paint comment. Maybe part of the power of the Xbox One is hidden in the dark side of the moon....

Other than that, it's not the first time I hear about Microsoft being under NDA for the time being til October and November. According to this news they are keeping some secrets under wraps. I consider you one of the geniuses here so any information could help to know what is going on.

Further explanation on how the hardware works might explain where are the rest of those 47MB of cache -Gipsel :smile2:exposed some pretty interesting information in that regard too, but it can also be sheer technical (something I know he loves) conjecture on his part 'cos maybe they aren't accounting for audio caches and stuff-. So perhaps we'll have to wait and see.

Microsoft apparently still has some secrets up its sleeves. We won’t know all of the details about the hardware until November, so we can only take Penello on his word for now.

http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/165918-the-xbox-one-will-feel-more-powerful-in-practice-than-it-seems-on-paper?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ziffdavis%2Fextremetech+%28Extremetech%29

 

[Rangers]

You don't need a GMail account to use an Android phone or tablet. You need one to access content on Google's store, but not to use the device. Just as you don't need an Xbox Live/Messenger/Skype account to use Windows. You also don't need to use Google's or MS's development environments for their respective platforms; there are third party tools to choose from. You just select the best fit from the options available. DX inclusion in Windows means little because you could distribute OGL with your game. Ergo the reasons DX overtook OGL are numerous and tied to functionality, dev tools, marketing, yada yada. Certainly DX wasn't forced on anyone.

This is old (and OT) now but I seem to recall being forced to input a google account when you boot up an android phone for the first time. You have no choice.

Which doesn't bother me that much I suppose, all the big players MS/Apple/Google try to tie you into one account and I'm sure it even has consumer benefits. More annoying to me is the way Google handles youtube accounts now. Forcing you to make a Google+ page to get a YT account.

It's also annoying when you have 2 YT accounts and may want to upload a vid from your phone to the YT account not NOT tied to your phone (a YT account shouldn't be permanently tied to your phone anyway, but since it's all under a google account umbrella, it is). Maybe there's an easy way to handle this but I dont know of it.

 

[Rangers]

Isn't it incredibly fascinating that the two competitors have completely switched designs this coming generation from the last two? The Xbox and even the 360 (although less so) were essentially off the shelf components while Sony had their custom solutions in the emotion engine and cell. Now, it looks as if MS took a basic SoC and then customized the hell out of it while Sony essentially took a basic SoC and just slapped on a superior memory controller to utilize faster GDDR5 memory.

Personally, I think this is because as Lighthaven stated, MS had goals and plans that went beyond gaming so they needed a more customized architecture while Sony is primarily focused on building a gaming machine.

Oh, and I think Penello's latest interviews and statements firmly support Blakjedi's frequent comments. That the blow back from forum warriors forced MS to completely change their strategy and fundamentally effected how the console would work and that is causing launch problems as they try to reconfigure everything to work with disc based non DRM'd content.

XBO design though is a lot like 360 design, which was the "simple" one last gen. Now it's just been out-simpled.

Both designs use SOC's based on Jag cores, they're really not that different, unless these 15 co-processors are a real differentiation point.

I guess XBO can be more complex than 360 because the ESRAM is so much more flexible, you may be essentially required to do more complex programming to it.

 

[Rangers]

Microsoft apparently still has some secrets up its sleeves. We won’t know all of the details about the hardware until November, so we can only take Penello on his word for now.

So at least two articles reference this. This one and the venturebreat one. So, evidently it's an actual thing MS said. Hmmm...

That's weird because the venturebeat article worded it as "MS didn't want the competition to know how well designed it's system was". What could it hurt now? It's not like Sony can redesign the PS4, can they? Is MS really worried about next next gen?

Weird. Probably reading too much into it. I wonder if we will even get any new details in November.

Maybe it makes sense if it performs much better than expected due to these unknown things, and they didn't want Sony to upclock in response? Pretty much the only possible way it makes sense.

 

[Jay]

Or maybe they mean in November when it's released, people will be able to tell for themselves by playing and comparing actual games.
I guess I need to dig further to see what other people do.

 

[Cyan]

So at least two articles reference this. This one and the venturebreat one. So, evidently it's an actual thing MS said. Hmmm...

That's weird because the venturebeat article worded it as "MS didn't want the competition to know how well designed it's system was". What could it hurt now? It's not like Sony can redesign the PS4, can they? Is MS really worried about next next gen?

Weird. Probably reading too much into it. I wonder if we will even get any new details in November.

Maybe it makes sense if it performs much better than expected due to these unknown things, and they didn't want Sony to upclock in response? Pretty much the only possible way it makes sense.

The fact that Larry Hryb, aka Major Nelson, says he is looking forward to the next months and years also says it all! They are so undaunted and upbeat about the hardware.... I always fancied the design of the console regardless, and his "as the truth to come out" got me thinking.

Somehow, I have a feeling that the Xbox One is one monster machine at efficiency.

 

[Jwm]

The drivers are called mono right? So what are the stereo drivers? Lol

Something is fishy for sure, the recent MS comments seem oddly timed after known production has started. I don't want to wear a tinfoil hat!!

***
But here it is, my best wild guesses. Oculus Rift gets bought by MS, stereo driver enables it. CliffyB is in charge of Black Tusk, and Carmack lead the silicon team behind the scenes. Or maybe just the APIs.

Maybe there is some truth to controlled leaks, purposeful but never fully complete.
***

Back on topic, where is there more info on the audio steering based on where Kinect sees you along with controller ir detection. Would love more details on that.

 

[DopeyFish]

If it's anything they are hiding, it's dedicated GPGPU cores (with no texture units) bound directly with the ESRAM... For a 2-3 billion transistor investment, they have done less talking about it compared to EDRAM

I am also constantly bothered by the dev docs referring to the CUs as strictly shader cores

Just my 2 cents

 

[rokkerkory]

So at least two articles reference this. This one and the venturebreat one. So, evidently it's an actual thing MS said. Hmmm...

That's weird because the venturebeat article worded it as "MS didn't want the competition to know how well designed it's system was". What could it hurt now? It's not like Sony can redesign the PS4, can they? Is MS really worried about next next gen?

Weird. Probably reading too much into it. I wonder if we will even get any new details in November.

Maybe it makes sense if it performs much better than expected due to these unknown things, and they didn't want Sony to upclock in response? Pretty much the only possible way it makes sense.

It makes no sense to keep things secret at this time? If there is, they should be marketing the heck out of it because the market believes PS4 is more powerful?

I highly doubt there is anything else, getting GPU and CPU upclocks are pretty good already.

 

[DopeyFish]

It makes no sense to keep things secret at this time? If there is, they should be marketing the heck out of it because the market believes PS4 is more powerful?

I highly doubt there is anything else, getting GPU and CPU upclocks are pretty good already.

Thing is... What will be more impressive? A bunch more shading power or a ton of GPGPU power? I say GPGPU because it's going to be what completely changes the game. Art assets are stupid hard to do but GPGPU stuff is easier and can be far more impressive. Far more organic, far more "real" looking

These are launch games we are seeing and note the one thing you don't see a lot of is GPGPU

So essentially if they DID hide that, I think it was a pretty safe bet. I really don't want to start presuming though... It would be AWESOME if they buried a secret like that, but I will just assume what was announced is what we are getting.

 

[AzBat]

Ah, I forgot to mention that it has been confirmed by Eurogamer that Phil Spencer is going to give a developers conference on the Xbox One, September 26th -JUST after the NDA is lifted-.

I think you meant Phil Harrison. Would have been weird to see Phil Spencer talk about game development. LOL

Microsoft corporate vice president Phil Harrison will present an exclusive Xbox One presentation, kicking off the Eurogamer Expo developer session schedule at 12pm BST on Thursday 26th September. The session will also be streamed online on the Eurogamer YouTube channel.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-09-05-xbox-one-and-games-playable-at-eurogamer-expo-2013

Sounds like you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

Tommy McClain

 

[Cyan]

I think you meant Phil Harrison. Would have been weird to see Phil Spencer talk about game development. LOL



http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-09-05-xbox-one-and-games-playable-at-eurogamer-expo-2013

Sounds like you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

Tommy McClain

We can expect massive suicides. I mean, if the rumours are true. Oddly enough it is a developers conference, and developers talk about hardware. If you think about it, Microsoft paid 3 billion dollars to AMD for the Xbox One. Where is that money?

He he, thanks for the correction Tommy. I was confused as to whether write Phil Spencer or Phil Harrison.

bagsofsuck, the GCN 2.0 comment was pretty nifty and witty.

 

[Jwm]

Ok I had seen the $3 billion, but not in article form. Massive sum of money, but MS owns the ip? Maybe why?

 

[bagofsuck]

i wish we could know more about these 15 co processors and if they are going to be a game changer.

 

[McHuj]

I believe the $3B is not what MS paid to AMD, but what the X1 is worth to AMD over the lifetime of the product so it probably includes all development and future royalties.

 

[DopeyFish]

Ok I had seen the $3 billion, but not in article form. Massive sum of money, but MS owns the ip? Maybe why?

$3 billion is the estimated value over the life of the console cycle, not the R&D budget.

Microsoft licenses the IP from AMD (so they can take to fab themselves, pay AMD royalty (time descending) and able to maintain cost control) and owns portions of the IP in use (such as DMEs)

How dense is an ESRAM array, anyways? Sometimes we forget they have added redundancy for failure, too.

Can anyone else confirm that the die is a lot bigger than expected?

 

[Jwm]

Or if they include DME, SHAPE, etc. But that only accounts for 7 of 15?

 

[Rockster]

All Larry means when he says "the truth comes out" is that the games will tell the story, and NOT that there is any more or different hardware than what's been described already. I think they are pretty convinced that, (and perhaps rightly so), the rendering advantages the PS4 has aren't so great that it will result in some clearly better experience to the majority of gamers.

It takes "orders of magnitude" (look it up if you don't know what that means) more processing power to yield easily distinguishable improvements in visual fidelity. The 30-50% delta, depending on who you talk to, just isn't big enough to be noticeable to the masses. Videophiles and we here measuring native rendering resolutions, specific lighting techniques, and frame rate fluctuations will be able to pick out the nuanced differences. But fundamentally they will provide similar experiences, so it will come down who executes best in providing the content, features, and price that consumers find most appealing. As it always does. And so in this case the specs are more or less a wash in the greater context of sales and hence mostly irrelevant.

That's all that statement means. So give up any dreams you have of hidden processor, megaton news bombs waiting to be dropped at the last second. Please.

 

[astrograd]

Or if they include DME, SHAPE, etc. But that only accounts for 7 of 15?

They are specifically there to offload processing from the GPU/CPU. OF course they include those things. The display planes, DME's, all the audio processors should most certainly account for a pretty big chunk of those co-processors.