[Druga Runda]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/st...183596,00.html

Going straight

Revered by the religious right and bolstered by a supposedly scientific theory, a new wave of therapist-gurus claim they can 'cure' homosexuality. Their success rate is hotly contested. Decca Aitkenhead joins a rally of would-be converts in Nashville.
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"There is no such thing as a homosexual," the chief speaker, a clinical psychologist called Dr Joseph Nicolosi, assures his audience. "Everyone is heterosexual. Some of you may have a homosexual problem. But you are still a heterosexual. 'Homosexual' is simply a description of a psychological disorder, prompted by an inner sense of emptiness. This," he reminds them, "by the way, is non-religious, non-political information. This is scientific information."

Homosexuality has not been classified as a mental illness in America for more than 30 years. It was removed from the national register of mental illnesses, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), in 1973, following pressure from gay activists. Nearly 20 years later, Nicolosi founded an organisation for psychiatrists and psychologists who still rejected that 1973 decision, and believed homosexuals could and should be cured. As president of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (Narth), Nicolosi devised a programme of reparative therapy - sometimes known as conversion or reorientation therapy - and built up an international network of therapists who provide this treatment.

It is not an insignificant network. Narth's membership includes a former president of the American Mental Health Counsellors' Association and university clinical professors of psychiatry Charles Socarides, Dean Byrd and Benjamin Kaufman. Along with Drs Jeffrey Satinover, Richard Fitzgibbons and Irving Bieber, all have published or contributed to books about reparative therapy, and claim that at least a third of all clients can be completely cured of their homosexuality.

Their views didn't enjoy a great deal of credibility in the 1990s. Sexual reorientation had traditionally been an evangelical idea found in ex-gay ministries, who preached that homosexuality could be prayed away. Most mental health organisations took the view that reparative therapy was no more clinically effective, still less appropriate, than a prayer.

Then something happened that Nicolosi and his associates could not in their wildest dreams have hoped for. To the gay activists involved in the 1973 campaign it was unimaginable, but to the families of boys such as Drew Sermon, it is news to be clung to like a life raft. The very psychiatrist who led the removal of homosexuality from the DSM in 1973 announced, in 2000, that he was going to investigate the success rate of reparative therapy. Dr Robert Spitzer, by then a senior professor of psychiatry at Columbia University, wanted to know whether it was possible for homosexuals to change. Could therapy turn gays straight? Late last year, Spitzer's study was published. And his answer was: yes.

Spitzer found 274 men and women who claimed to have changed their orientation from gay to straight, thanks to therapy, and he interviewed them. In 74 of these subjects, the only change Spitzer could identify was their decision to call themselves straight, or to stop having sex, and these he rejected from the study. He found that all of the remainder - 143 men and 57 women - had changed to some degree.

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Another spoke to me from Washington DC. When Richard Cohen first sought help in the 1970s, therapists told him to accept the fact that he was born gay. "I knew that wasn't true. I just knew it in my gut." Then a religious group told him to get married. "I was told, find the right woman and she'll straighten you out. Well, I did, and she didn't. We were both looking for the same thing - a good man." But, after therapy, Cohen "came out straight". His marriage prospered, he had three children, and "my wife certainly isn't the only woman I'm attracted to!"

How had it happened? Reparative therapy is based on a theory of a child's early rejection by the same-sex parent. It applies equally to lesbians, but the literature tends to focus on men and states that homosexuality begins when a young boy experiences his father as cold or hostile. To protect himself from the pain of rejection, he develops "defensive detachment" - he rejects his father in retaliation. But, in doing so, the boy rejects masculinity, and this leads to a gender identity disorder. The little boy, having spurned masculinity, finds he cannot be a real boy.
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Two New York psychologists carried out another study of reparative therapy at the same time as Spitzer, and reached the opposite conclusion. "We interviewed 182 people who tried very hard to change," Dr Ariel Shidlo told Newsweek. "The stakes were really high for them. Some really thought that if they didn't change, they would literally find themselves in hell... And they still failed."

"Spitzer?" Besen says. "I just don't understand the man. I told him, if there is one thing we know about these people, it is that when they say they've changed, they haven't." He shrugs, as though worn out with disbelief. "C'mon. He had John Paulk in his study, for chrissakes."

Spitzer sounds fairly worn out as well. "If I were in my 30s," he says drily, "this is not something I would advise somebody to do. It would not advance their career." He has been condemned as a bigot, and claimed as a cheerleader by the religious right. Wary of misrepresentation, he tries to clarify once again the purpose of his study, and what he believes it proved. It was very straightforward, he sighs. The received scientific wisdom was that sexual orientation never changed. He found people who said theirs had. He asked them questions designed to test their credibility, and found that for a significant number it had changed to a significant degree.

"Yes, I think change is probably extremely rare, otherwise it would not have taken so long to find the participants. And, yes, the change I found was seldom from one extreme to the other. But nevertheless, there was change. And that seems to me to be a worthwhile discovery, isn't it?"

No one has ever tested the efficacy of gay affirmative therapy, Spitzer points out. If clients told a researcher that it had worked for them, would we disbelieve them? No. When a homosexual says he was emotionally damaged by reparative therapy, gay activists do not doubt his word.

"So," Spitzer asks, patiently and deliberately, "why assume he is lying when he says it helped?"

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Is it OK? "Ex-gay" is a wholly unambiguous expression. The message at Love Won Out is unequivocal: you can be cured. The discrepancy between these promises and what reparative therapy's own chief architect has just conceded seems startling - and for the APA it is not OK at all. The APA warns that reparative therapy can be deeply harmful, because a client who is fed false promises may experience his own failure to change as a shameful personal indictment. Guilt, depression and suicide can be the disastrous consequences of unsuccessful therapy. "Those who have integrated their sexual orientation into a positive sense of themselves," it maintains, "function at a healthier psychological level than those who have not."

In a peculiar way, the debate has muddled liberal and conservative vocabulary, until everyone's role is reversed. Besen was far and away the most straight-acting man I met in Nashville, though some of the ex-lesbians at Love Won Out would give him a run for his money in the butch department. Gay activist groups such as the Human Rights Campaign want to see reparative therapy banned, but the ex-gay movement appeals to homosexuals' right to freedom of choice.

"People have a right to choose to live as a homosexual, or to come out straight," argues Cohen. "It's a matter of choice; they should have the chance. I'm not anti-anything. I'm pro-possibility, pro-choice." And ex-gays have appropriated the old gay activists' perennial plea on behalf of young homosexuals everywhere, for "the truth".

It's a really long article and above are some excerpts from it, and it has everything - a study that ex-gays can be real, it's negation, the fact that gay activist groups want to lable ex-gays as liars, the fact that it's all muddy, and the finish that a guy that has been on the 'healing' meeting said that the facts that were presented there haven't changed anything.

IMHO I can see how it can be harmfull, but what about those guys who claim that they are ex-gay... i think an official study following this elusive group of people should be conducted, and it would be interesting to see whether all ex-gay are religious too...

[John Reynolds]

Ex-gay is a misnomer, IMO. The person may by force of free will choose, for whatever reason, to no longer engage in gay sex but does that mean the individual is no longer attracted to those of the same sex?

[Druga Runda]

Originally Posted by John Reynolds

Ex-gay is a misnomer, IMO. The person may by force of free will choose, for whatever reason, to no longer engage in gay sex but does that mean the individual is no longer attracted to those of the same sex?

that is the idea that the "christian funded psychologists" seem to endorse publicly, but if you read the article, it is not really likely that this happens, despite some evidence of change in certain people... now that while proved by a study by and unbiased psychologist can be and is disputed.

So the whole ordeal is maybe, and there is certainly some gay people who say this is possible - so that's the ex-gay idea... and they are not really welcomed by normal gay activists.

IMHO why should be impossible? This indicates that it might not be impossible. (to change attraction to different sex) Who knows humans are weird...

[digitalwanderer]

<sigh>

You can brainwash anyone into believing they are damn near anything with enough time and effort, the question should be about if it is RIGHT to change someone against their will.

I've not met or encountered all that many homosexuals who wanted to be cured, or even that there was something wrong with them in the first place.

[arjan de lumens]

More indiscriminate quoting from the article:

It had taken Spitzer more than 18 months to find just 200 or so people willing to describe themselves as successfully converted. He found his interviewees by advertising through ex-gay organisations. Almost half were recruited through ex-gay ministries, and nearly a quarter by Narth. Religion was "extremely" or "very" important to 93% of them. One in five was a mental health professional (Cohen, for example, is a high-profile reparative therapist) or director of an ex-gay ministry, and more than three-quarters had previously lobbied for sexual reorientation. These are people who get paid to say that therapy works.

For many critics, this alone was enough to discredit the exercise. An article in the APA's Psychiatric News likened it to testing a drug on people recruited by the pharmaceutical company. But in addition, many of the participants appeared to have been not so much altered from gay to straight, as bisexual all along. Ten per cent of the men had never had gay sex before therapy, whereas half had already slept with a woman. Only a third of the women and half the men said that before therapy they were "extremely" bothered by homosexual feelings. How gay were they?

[Druga Runda]

well overall it might be dangerous if some politico like Dubya states all gays have to go to hospital... but this is unlikely, and is not good for kids from not supportive parents either... but for some people who would rather be straight... well maybe it can help??? Some seem to think so... so why deny them, I guess abuse of this 'therapy' should be controlled, and if this whole thing is made legal maybe some organisation should be created to help those who are coerced into taking the therapy by their relatives/environment whatever...

if it's by free will, than well it's up to the people who take it... all in all it's a thinker, hopefully it won't spur suicide rates of homosexuals...

[Druga Runda]

Originally Posted by arjan de lumens

More indiscriminate quoting from the article:

umph... yes haven't read that proper... 93% religious...
that means coercion...

[MfA]

Psychiatry, 95% a money making scheme 5% good intentions and 0% science.

[Tagrineth]

How had it happened? Reparative therapy is based on a theory of a child's early rejection by the same-sex parent. It applies equally to lesbians, but the literature tends to focus on men and states that homosexuality begins when a young boy experiences his father as cold or hostile. To protect himself from the pain of rejection, he develops "defensive detachment" - he rejects his father in retaliation. But, in doing so, the boy rejects masculinity, and this leads to a gender identity disorder. The little boy, having spurned masculinity, finds he cannot be a real boy.

Oh, yes. All gay men must certainly be GID. Or at least, very highly feminine.

I believe Natoma should have a few great 'choice words' for that statement.

And I wonder... if you took the methods employed to "turn homosexuals heterosexual again" and switched them around a little... could you turn a straight guy into a fag?

[digitalwanderer]

I was gonna say that I'm sort of surprised that Natoma ain't added his opinion into the mix already.

[The549]

If there wasn't the stigma on homosexuality, I'm positive you could "convert" straight people the other way around. If people thought that being gay was politically/morally correct, how many gay people would ther be? And I'm also pretty sure that scientists have found a part in peoples' brains that pretty much decides how gay someone is.
A study like this is ridiculous while not being that surprising.

[nelg]

So long as you cannot use this type of retraining to cure (sic) chocolate addiction I will be fine.

[Vince]

Originally Posted by Tagrineth

Oh, yes. All gay men must certainly be GID. Or at least, very highly feminine.

I believe Natoma should have a few great 'choice words' for that statement.

And I wonder... if you took the methods employed to "turn homosexuals heterosexual again" and switched them around a little... could you turn a straight guy into a fag?

Most likely, sure. Apart from this specific article, which I don't necessarily agree with, If you start early enough in a humans life and influence their hormonal levels, neurotransmitters and enviroment. But, why stick to actual facts about evolution and the clever mechanisms and dynamics nature has created to basically mold a living entity's growth down a certain pathway without explicit information guiding it - ohh, no - but lets listen to Natoma and his few "choice words" because he'll sure as shit know what's going down. Just like asking a drunk or OCD patient - because let me tell you - they know what's really going on.... Gotta love how that whole 'PC' mentality can totally close any potential avenue of thought, belief, or reseach just because some powerful lobbies with total assholes running them doen't approve.

*shakes head and walks away from thread*

[digitalwanderer]

Originally Posted by Vince

*shakes head and walks away from thread*

Mebbe you should have done that before sharing your insight into the matter with us.

[Vince]

Originally Posted by digitalwanderer

Mebbe you should have done that before sharing your insight into the matter with us.

Why, so we can listen to more of your 7th grade drivel which enfuriates me... you can "brainwash anybody" - Uhh, no. Someone's Will"? Gotta love the 17th century and Cartesian Dualism. And whose talking about "brainwashing"? The problem with these topics are people like you who look at it as nothing but a totally surperficial, generally political, opinion without any actual concept of the dynamics behind it.

How about you go read up on some biology, neurology and finish it off with some theoretical reading on self-organizing systems and how they work. And then comment on brainwashing and how Homosexuality could, possibly, be a condition which isn't intrinsic; meaning it's not genetic. And when you come to the obvious conclusion that it's not genetic and that many aspects of a higher organism aren't defined by the information it's built from... you can go look into those self-organizing systems and see how the enviroment could influence it. And then tell me what it is....

Unless you can tell me how I'm wrong and where I can find the non-enviromental, genetic, information which makes you Gay. Lay it on me DigitalWander, just blow me away with your insight in "Brainwashing" and finding someone's "will"... let me guess... it's a block down, just to the right of their soul.

Oh yeah, before I forget,

[Sabastian]

Well I was hesitant to wiegh in on this. However, I once before posted this info below.

Homosexuality has not been classified as a mental illness in America for more than 30 years. It was removed from the national register of mental illnesses, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), in 1973, following pressure from gay activists. Nearly 20 years later, Nicolosi founded an organisation for psychiatrists and psychologists who still rejected that 1973 decision, and believed homosexuals could and should be cured.

Or at least articulated the fact before. I am not going to get into this debate again but I did find your question (in bold) worth making mention of.

Originally Posted by Druga Runda

well overall it might be dangerous if some politico like Dubya states all gays have to go to hospital... but this is unlikely, and is not good for kids from not supportive parents either... but for some people who would rather be straight... well maybe it can help??? Some seem to think so... so why deny them, I guess abuse of this 'therapy' should be controlled, and if this whole thing is made legal maybe some organisation should be created to help those who are coerced into taking the therapy by their relatives/environment whatever...

if it's by free will, than well it's up to the people who take it... all in all it's a thinker, hopefully it won't spur suicide rates of homosexuals...

The thing is that they don't want to talk about that idea at all.. because it suggest that indeed it is a matter of choice. The answer is yes it might help but that is a very politically incorrect stance. Certainly if the person in question really does not like being "homosexual" and would like to be "straight" then doctors ought to help to remedy the problem or at least try. The prescription is that they must stay gay for their own good for some reason. You see they must be victims of something beyond their control to avoid discrimination.

If it is a matter of choice then they ought to be allowed to choose heterosexuality or at least try to. Surely choice is a factor but inherent hard wired biological reproductive features are impossible to ignore. Somehow/someway the whole matter is a bit of both nature and nurture making discovering the "cure" difficult let alone understanding the phenomena.

Anyhow I do not want to get into yet another debate on the matter I just thought that I would give my 2 cents regarding your maybe it can help? Yes it might and if it does not then some other method might.

[Fred]

The problem is that legit scientific psychology is still in its infancy, so this question is going to be absurd no matter which way you look at it.

Consider the converse, ask yourselves, what is the specific change in function in the brain when one converts a heterosexual into a homosexual.

I'm sure most people will agree that it is possible, at least in principle.

So statistically speaking, what would the difference be between one procedure and the opposite.

One could look for something like the following:

Maybe in one case it was 'relatively painless' and a 'smooth transition', whereas in the other it was not.

or

In one case the final neurological state was unstable relative to the other. (you could identify that as living a lie, or as a procedure that wouldn't last).

You could also look for telltale signs about the precise brain functions when members of the two sexes are shown in revealing situations.

Either way, one might ask... 'whats the point?', other than adapting to social morals.

[Natoma]

I've been doing better things today, like celebrating my mom's 50th birthday. But it's nice to know that I'm pined after when I'm not around.

But as to the topic at hand, I'll keep this short and to the point. Anyone who would willingly put up with the bullshit, and in some cases threats to their very lives, that gay men and women have to put up with day in and day out from the time we realize our sexuality in our early youth would have to be certifiable, or at least gets off when receiving punishment.

The lives of gay men and women would be at least 10x easier overall if we were straight. Of course, we're not the problem. It's people like Vince who have no issue making homosexuality comparisons to alcoholism or drug abuse, or Joe, who's timeless comparisons between homosexuality and beastiality live on in eternal infamous stupidity, that are the problem.

And of course those that go out and decide to beat the living crap out of someone because they're gay, or evict someone because they're gay, or fire someone because they're gay, or expel qualified service members from the armed forces because they're gay, or kill someone because they're gay, or make snide comments because they're gay, or kick them out of their homes because they're gay, or deny them custody of their own children because they're gay, or deny them children all together because they're gay, etc etc etc, are the problem as well.

[jvd]

Now if only they can teach the homosexuals how to be nice to strait people .


No more heterophobics .


That is what we need to work on . THe abuse from the homosexuals is just to much.

I'm a person and I should have equal rights and shouldn't be bashed.

[Natoma]

It's not our fault you straight men can't dress yourselves and need carson kressley. :P

[jvd]

Originally Posted by Natoma

It's not our fault you straight men can't dress yourselves and need carson kressley. :P

I dress myself fine.

I start by putting on my green lantern tighty whiteys . Then i put my socks on.

Then I put my pants on and then I put a shirt on.

Nothing wrong with that you heterophob

[kkevin666]

Homosexuals are genetic dead ends.

[K.I.L.E.R]

Good! Maybe we can curb our high population from becoming too high.

I'm going to start my "Be gay for a day" fund rasing campaign to turn straight guys into gay guys using various methods like electric shock therapy and hypnotism.

[John Reynolds]

Originally Posted by kkevin666

Homosexuals are genetic dead ends.

If my wife hadn't wanted children so badly and badgered me about it for years I would've been a heterosexual genetic dead end. And homosexuals can adopt, and lesbians can be artificially inseminated, so it's not like they can't help foster or produce children. Though, yes, I'm sure there are people that, for whatever reason, would rather see a child bounced from foster to foster or remain a ward of the state than be placed with a gay couple who might just love and take good care of the child.

[epicstruggle]

Originally Posted by Natoma

And of course those that go out and decide to beat the living crap out of someone because they're gay, or evict someone because they're gay, or fire someone because they're gay, or expel qualified service members from the armed forces because they're gay, or kill someone because they're gay, or make snide comments because they're gay, or kick them out of their homes because they're gay, or deny them custody of their own children because they're gay, or deny them children all together because they're gay, etc etc etc, are the problem as well.

One of dumbest things youve posted. I should know ive posted some reall dumb comments over the years.

Take your paragraph above and we can _generally_ switch gay with:
-black
-white
-asian
-hindu
-muslim
-women
-dumb
-ugly
-fat
-handicapped
-etc

Please dont make it like only gays have it hard. Ugly/Fat people have had it far worse than any gay person for alot longer. Look at any school yard, the ugly/fat children can be separated alot easier than gay children, so they are the bigger target.

later,
epic