[jvd]

Originally Posted by christoph

i asked over at 3dc about the proof or source of the story...

quote from leonidas from 3dc

um english please haha

[elroy]

Babelfish translation:

The source is more than directly, more directly goes it no longer. Not only the position of the source is direct, but also the kind, like it come to the information, is ultimatively direct. Inaugurated ones possibly suspect, what I mean

[Hanners]

Um, English please...

[Sxotty]

Originally Posted by martrox

Well, if that's true, - R420 not having 3.0 - and if nVidia has redone their FSAA and corrected the problems with their filtering - AND done away with the driver cheats - I guess I'll be forced to take a walk on the dark side........

And this post proves democoder is right

[Geo]

Originally Posted by elroy

Babelfish translation:

The source is more than directly, more directly goes it no longer. Not only the position of the source is direct, but also the kind, like it come to the information, is ultimatively direct. Inaugurated ones possibly suspect, what I mean

Hmm. Maybe it just isn't in the first release drivers yet, but the hardware can support it?

[Geo]

Originally Posted by geo

Hmm. Maybe it just isn't in the first release drivers yet, but the hardware can support it?

Altho, to argue against my own theory, Dave's comment awhile back about the "tug of war" over the 9.1 moniker would suddenly make sense if R420 would not qualify for that label.

[Evildeus]

Well, it depends on where the information comes from, drivers or something else.

[digitalwanderer]

Originally Posted by geo

Altho, to argue against my own theory, Dave's comment awhile back about the "tug of war" over the 9.1 moniker would suddenly make sense if R420 would not qualify for that label.

Could you expand on that thought a bit please? It's tickling something in my brain and I wanna see if I can figure out what the tickle is.

[Evildeus]

Perhaps 3DCenter and the Inq 8) have the same source

Lastly there is word on the NV40 R420 front. Neither card was shown, but several people who would be familiar with both have said Nvidia is going to come back very strong soon. The word 'own' was bandied about, as in Nvidia will own ATI. Not sure what it means, but CeBit should be a very interesting show.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=14290

[Dave Baumann]

I suspect I know who that "own" comment has come from and I also suspect that he's only dealing with half the deck.

[Evildeus]

Who? And he doesn't have Ati specs?

[Sabastian]

That would be similar to the way that nvidia didn't directly support PS1.4 in DX8 would it not? I don't recall everyone coming down hard on nvidia because they didn't support PS1.4... well not everyone there were some though. Personally I hope that all IHV support DX next methodically . Surely it would be a negative against ATi if they choose not to support it. But if sales of the R4xx are anything similar to the nv2x series derivatives then surely it will only be a small but influential group of enthusiasts looking for cutting edge technology that will be upset. Most however will be happy to see a faster DX9.0b. I would expect Hardware sites like AnandTech and THG to rail against ATi where they would not against nvidia. Personally if the technology of dx next is exciting I would be disappointed if ATi did not implement hardware support. It would however indicate a role reversal between ATi and nvidia to a degree. ATi has a better record for supporting API features that nvidia did not support.. I suppose if nvidia supports the next generation of dx9 more thoroughly then it will be a sign in some way that ATi is falling behind then? Heh, it is a never ending cycle. I would be surprised though if ATi did not support dx next comprehensively though particularly in light of the development work they are doing WRT the xbox 2.

[John Reynolds]

I'll say this: if NV40 has comparable AA to R420, similar (say within 5-10% across the board) PS 2.0 performance, and 3.0 support whereas R420 doesn't, ATI has a long, tough road ahead of them this year.

[Quitch]

Originally Posted by Sxotty

And this post proves democoder is right

All that proves is that PS 3.0 support is not top of martox's list.

I found DC's post to make some huge assumptions that my year of this board would suggest are baseless. I'd have thought DC would know better.

I would simply say that PS 3.0 support is NOT the most important thing in peoples eyes, and if nVidia work on it to the detriment of other more important things, then people will come down hard, and rightly so.

[Evildeus]

Sabastian,
Dany Lepage thinks that PS 3.0 is a huge step and the baseline for the next games.

IMHO, no PS 3.0 support by R420 is pure speculation till we get the final specs...

[PaulS]

The lack of full PS3.0 support in the R420 gives us this as a likely outcome:

- nVidia "winning" the bullet point feature set wars (the DX9.1 moniker mentioned earlier would be far too tempting, I'd say)
- nVidia being the sole PS3.0 supporting IHV
- ATi continuing to beat nVidia in DX9 benchmarks
- ATi continuing to hold the moral high ground in terms of drivers (i.e. the cheats won't disappear)
- nVidia winning the majority of OGL benchmarks

Fairly obvious stuff. Based on a couple of conversations I've had recently, it seems almost certain that nVidia won't beat ATi in DX9, despite improved performance, and that nVidia is now aware of that - even if the likes of Anand/Inq are playing with the wrong information at the moment.

And the comment of "only dealing with half the deck" reinforces that, in my mind. I doubt the "own" comment came from nVidia, given that they apparently now know what they're talking about re: R420.

EDIT: Changed the "maybe" nature of the introduction

[Sabastian]

Originally Posted by Evildeus

Sabastian,
Dany Lepage thinks that PS 3.0 is a huge step and the baseline for the next games.

IMHO, no PS 3.0 support by R420 is pure speculation till we get the final specs...

Like I said I would be surprised if ATi were not to support dx next broadly, particularly if you keep in mind the work they are doing with MS with regards to the xbox2.

[whql]

Originally Posted by Evildeus

Dany Lepage thinks that PS 3.0 is a huge step and the baseline for the next games.

Well, if NV are touting it to developers then I wouldn't expect Dany to say much else seeing as he writes titles on the TWIMTBP program and is ex-NV.

[Miksu]

Didn't David Nalasco say in a recent interview that R420's focus is performance, not the features? So this would go hand on hand with the possible lack of PS3.0 support.

[Evildeus]

Originally Posted by whql

Well, if NV are touting it to developers then I wouldn't expect Dany to say much else seeing as he writes titles on the TWIMTBP program and is ex-NV.

Well, TWIMTBP is just marketing and has never mean more performance contrary to what Dany is saying about PS 3.0 . But i'm not a programmer, so who knows

[THe_KELRaTH]

..........And the latest News from the PR Nvidia camp is that the R420 won't even support DX9 at all but will concentrate on offering a whole 10% speed increase for DX8.1......

[digitalwanderer]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Assuming the lack of PS3.0 in R420 turns out to be correct (and it's not a given at this point, i guess), I imagine it'll end up being:

- nVidia "winning" the bullet point feature set wars (the DX9.1 moniker mentioned earlier would be far too tempting, I'd say)
- nVidia being the sole PS3.0 supporting IHV
- ATi continuing to beat nVidia in DX9 benchmarks
- ATi continuing to hold the moral high ground in terms of drivers (i.e. the cheats won't disappear)
- nVidia winning the majority of OGL benchmarks

Fairly obvious stuff. Based on a couple of conversations I've had recently, it seems almost certain that nVidia won't beat ATi in DX9, despite improved performance, and that nVidia is now aware of that - even if the likes of Anand/Inq are playing with the wrong information at the moment.

And the comment of "only dealing with half the deck" reinforces that, in my mind. I doubt the "own" comment came from nVidia, given that they apparently now know what they're talking about re: R420.

Thanks Paul, this is a great little summary post!

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

Originally Posted by Miksu

Didn't David Nalasco say in a recent interview that R420's focus is performance, not the features? So this would go hand on hand with the possible lack of PS3.0 support.

I thought PS3 was currently part of DX9? All the recent discussions on whether there would be a DX9.1 pretty much were finished because MS said there was no need for DX9.1, as PS 3.0 is covered in the current DX9 spec. This means IMO that PS 3.0 could easily be considerd to be within the current DX9 spec.

I wouldn't be surprised if this all this is simply the start of Nvidia's ususal campaign of FUD, disinformation, and spoliers against their competitors that they always indulge in during the runup to any major product launches. We saw the same kind of unattributed rumours spring up before R300, NV30 and NV35, and the fan boys carried that onwards in a cry of how Nvidia would "own" ATI - and we saw how that all turned out.

Personally, I think Nvidia will have to do more than just support PS 3.0. Look at how they "supported" PS 2.0. They plugged it as "extended" and able to to extra long shaders, but not at any useful speed. What if Nvidia crow about their PS 3.0 support, only for us to find it is just another marketing tickbox for an unusable feature?

I think we have to see the hardware before we can start listening to unattributed rumours about ATI products that have the style of coming from pro-Nvidia sources via the usual backdoors.

[Dave Baumann]

I think we have to see the hardware before we can start listening to unattributed rumours about ATI products that have the style of coming from pro-Nvidia sources via the usual backdoors.

Errr, the discussion in this case stems from the support withing ATI's own developer tools.

[Ante P]

Apart from the obvious battle of the power point slides with specifications what real matter will it make?
Ie. will many (10+ during 2004) game titles use PS/VS 3.0 (to a larger extent than just novelty support as we saw in GunMetal)? If so will it make a difference in Performance and/or Quality?

From my quite limited understanding PS/VS 3.0 won't really bring much to the table in terms of improved image quality. (ie no higher precision for example) ATi are going to be damned fast at PS2.0 but won't support 3.0, nVidia onm the other hand isa little bitslower at PS.20 but support 3.0 which makes their boards a bit faster than in 2.0 mode.. thus it might all amount to a big nothing.

But then again, personally I think there's much more interesting things. Things that directly impact all games. FSAA and Aniso algorithms for an example.
I'd take 8x "ATi-like" FSAA on NV40 over PS3.0 any day o' the weak.