[K.I.L.E.R]

They just bombed a British bank in Instanbul, it's insane.

Are they aiming for the British or the Turkish as well?

This is insane. Al-Quada is doing more damage in 1 bombing than the damage caused in the Iraq war.

[ByteMe]

I would say because they are too chicken to fight. They had a chance to fight when we went into Iraq. I can't imagine anyone being stupid enough to support them.

[pax]

AQ is making crucial mistakes in assuming these attacks tho nominaly on western targets will be accepted by most muslims as they are in fact killing and hurting a lot more muslims than anyone else... These actions will help to cut short the war on terror I think...

[K.I.L.E.R]

The war on terror will never end as long as different ideologies clash. Since we are humans I don't see people ever getting along nor the war on terror ending.

It's like saying wars will cease to exist. It will never happen. Things can only get worse from where we are, they can never get better.

[pax]

Bit pessimistic killer... Things I think are better than 50 years ago... back then dictators on both sides of the ideological ailse proliferated over the planet. I wasnt sure democracy was a sure thing wtho ww2 had been won.

Things arent fun either right now but Ill take a few hundred dead a year from low level acts of terrorism to any of the wars or world wars of the past century.

[epicstruggle]

Originally Posted by pax

I wasnt sure democracy was a sure thing wtho ww2 had been won.

right after ww2, the us,british and their allies were quite a bit stronger than the russians. Was it McArthur or Patton who wanted a few divisions to take out Stalin. If my history isnt too of, we were allies with even china's last emperor.

later,
epic

[jb]

Originally Posted by epicstruggle

Was it McArthur or Patton who wanted a few divisions to take out Stalin.

Patton was your man who keep opening his mouth about taking on the Russians back then. Cost him his career. But he was one hell of a commander!

[viscount]

Turkey was attacked because it is the utter annathema to Fundamentalist Islam. A secular, democratic, state who does not have an official state-religion, but the majority is Muslim.

Turkey aligned itself with the west 80 years ago with Ataturk's reforms. These attacks will only serve to strengthen the country's resolve.

[epicstruggle]

Originally Posted by viscount

Turkey was attacked because it is the utter annathema to Fundamentalist Islam. A secular, democratic, state who does not have an official state-religion, but the majority is Muslim.

Turkey aligned itself with the west 80 years ago with Ataturk's reforms. These attacks will only serve to strengthen the country's resolve.

very true. seems like the military is one of the main reasons why the govermnent is so secular.

later,
epic

[CosmoKramer]

I wish people would stop describing Turkey as a democratic state. Turkey is an ugly military dictatorship masquerading as a democracy. Luckily such second rate nations will never be part of the EU.

Let's call a spade a spade.

[John Reynolds]

Originally Posted by CosmoKramer

I wish people would stop describing Turkey as a democratic state. Turkey is an ugly military dictatorship masquerading as a democracy. Luckily such second rate nations will never be part of the EU.

Let's call a spade a spade.

I'm tempted to call you a euro-elitist but that would be hypocritical since during our vacation last year I told my wife the only portion of the trip during which I was concerned for our safety at all was while we were in Vienna, and that concern was due only to the city's Turk population.

[london-boy]

Originally Posted by CosmoKramer

I wish people would stop describing Turkey as a democratic state. Turkey is an ugly military dictatorship masquerading as a democracy. Luckily such second rate nations will never be part of the EU.

Let's call a spade a spade.

Oh THANK YOU.... At least someone in their right mind around here....

As long as there are Kurds in Turkey that are tortured for the fact that they're Kurds, the country will never be fit to enter Europe.

[CosmoKramer]

Originally Posted by John Reynolds

I'm tempted to call you a euro-elitist but that would be hypocritical since during our vacation last year I told my wife the only portion of the trip during which I was concerned for our safety at all was while we were in Vienna, and that concern was due only to the city's Turk population.

Instead of just talking nonsense perhaps you should shut up and read up. Turkey has what they call a "national security council" which is led by the military. This "council" has absolute power to overrule the civil government's decisions. If that's a western democracy then I'm happy to be called a euro-elitist by the likes of you.

[london-boy]

Originally Posted by CosmoKramer

Instead of just talking nonsense perhaps you should shut up and read up. Turkey has what they call a "national security council" which is led by the military. This "council" has absolute power to overrule the civil government's decisions. If that's a western democracy then I'm happy to be called a euro-elitist by the likes of you.

the thing is, even if it was an official Democracy (Which it isn't), the south-eastern part (VERY far from Instanbul, but still "Turkey") of the country is still at Iraq levels of civilization and especially "control"....

[viscount]

I'm getting sick and tired of ignorant kids slandering how Turkey is governed.

Have you ever been to Turkey? Have you ever actually researched how the country is run? Until then, quit reading your world affairs from your Leeds Tabloid.

The National Security Council in Turkey CANNOT overrule the government's decisions, what kind of idiot are you to proclaim that it is otherwise? What is your proof?

Turkey (currently) is a model democracy which is NOT ruled by the military. The most substantial proof for this is the fact that there is an Islamist government in power. The military has been utterly neutral whatsoever about this right wing movement in Turkish politics.

The southeast is NOT akin to Iraq. Southeastern Turkey holds some heavily industrialized and modern cities such as Diyarbakir, and Urfa. Not to mention the most prolific series of hydroelectric development regions in the entire world.

Either do your research properly Mr. London, or quit bull****ting.

P.S. Turkish civilians are currently dying, for British and American policies (not to mention interests), frankly, Europe better embrace Turkey, or soon Nelson's statue on Trafalgar will be as soot and cinder covered as the HSBC bank in Istanbul.


--Viscount

[Mariner]

One point: HSBC = "Hong Kong Shanghai Banking Corporation".

It's owned by the Chinese so I'm not quite sure how it is seen as an attack on Britain.

[nutball]

Originally Posted by Mariner

One point: HSBC = "Hong Kong Shanghai Banking Corporation".

It's owned by the Chinese so I'm not quite sure how it is seen as an attack on Britain.

Believe it or not, the British once owned both Hong Kong and Shanghai. This may be news to you, or maybe not.

The Hong Kong & Shanghai Banking Corp was one of the bastions of trade between Britain and SEA during the British Empire.

It is a multi-national corporation, HQ'd in London. It's difficult at the best of time to assign a national ownership to any multinational, but the one thing that HSBC isn't is "owned by the Chinese".

[Mariner]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the actual owners of the HSBC are some of the very old and very large Chinese banks. Could have been in some conspiracy rag somewhere, I suppose.

I don't think you could say that Britain has had a great deal of influence in Shanghai for some time now, however!

[Tahir2]

Originally Posted by viscount

Turkey was attacked because it is the utter annathema to Fundamentalist Islam. A secular, democratic, state who does not have an official state-religion, but the majority is Muslim.

Turkey aligned itself with the west 80 years ago with Ataturk's reforms. These attacks will only serve to strengthen the country's resolve.

Whilst I agree with you to an extent there is another reason Turkey was attacked and that was its support during the Iraq conflict earlier this year. Even though Turkey did not let the US use its bases it was the closest Muslim state ally the US had apart from Kuwait. This is probably the biggest factor.

Oh and I agree the Turkish government as it stands now has to go. They are actually repressive against muslims as well not on basis of creed, race but religion. The reforms by Ataturk went too far, i.e. turkish girls are not allowed to go to school with a head scarf on even if they want to.

Another reason for attacks against Turkey and not say Kuwait or Britain directly is that Turkey is a soft target. And for the first time I have heard all attacks were carried out and planned by Turkish nationals, rather than outside influences. This is surprising and very bad news in the long run.

The fight against terror is going to be a very difficult one. Military force alone wont solve it. In fact I think it will make it worse and give AQ et al more followers. After Afghanistan and Iraq I believe a 1000 new O.B. Laden's were created. How utterly sad and unfortunate for the world.

[nutball]

Originally Posted by Mariner

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the actual owners of the HSBC are some of the very old and very large Chinese banks. Could have been in some conspiracy rag somewhere, I suppose.

Probably a conspiracy rag. The owners of HSBC were indeed banks based in parts of China, however the parts of China were owned by Britain at the time.

I don't think you could say that Britain has had a great deal of influence in Shanghai for some time now, however!

Which may explain why HSBC has relocated.

[Heathen]

Was it McArthur or Patton who wanted a few divisions to take out Stalin

If Patton had got his way the Russians would have walked all over the allied armies.

[Tahir2]

Wasn't there a movie about Patton a while back?
Was he the General who forgot to thank the Russians at a Women's Function in England where he was 'undercover' following his escapades in Sicily?

[pax]

Ya god only knows why Patton thought he could take stalin out with a few divisions... Probly thought theyd roll over like they initially did when the nazi operation barbarossa started. I think the russians wouldve taken france and italy had that happened tho... at least until the nukes started flying east...

[Willmeister]

Just to put my $0.02 in, remember that Kamal Ataturk really went after religon when he came to power in his modernization drive, just as Congress did in India, though Ataturk was quite a bit more 'adamant'. The rise of Islamic parties, or the BJP in India, and both groups linked to ethnic and religous violence isn't exactly suprising.

[Natoma]

Originally Posted by pax

Ya god only knows why Patton thought he could take stalin out with a few divisions... Probly thought theyd roll over like they initially did when the nazi operation barbarossa started. I think the russians wouldve taken france and italy had that happened tho... at least until the nukes started flying east...

Uh, the Russians didn't have the A-bomb until 1949, and then the H-bomb in 1953. Would have been awhile after WWII ended in 1945.