[Lucid_Dreamer]

Originally Posted by RedVi

IBM already 'threw it all away', including the fast in-order chip design philosophy that eventuated as power 6.

IBM, alone, never really had "it" to begin with. PCs don't have the TDP concerns that consoles do either.

[liolio]

Originally Posted by Prophecy2k

Well yeah you're probably right shifty, but i'd be intrigued to see eaxactly how much of an improvement you'd get with the currently rumoured PS4 specs.

Honestly I expect to Sony exclusive to look phenomenal with the rumored hard (/ custom Kaveri as it makes more sense).
But if they are given more they would do more.

The best current gen games look pretty phenominal, so if with only say a 6X increase in HW performance (for arguments sake), would you really be able to make your game look noticably and considerably better AND also include expected "next-gen features" like more sophisticated destruction models, animation, physics, AI and simulation features?

I'm pretty impressed too by what the devs manage to push on those old hardware.
I remember the talk about "un"optimized physx for CPU. Only with a recompile there were a clear jump in perf. Still not a nigh/day difference a lot of the code was serial and not executed on the SIMD.
There could be more optimization but one may question to which extend those calculations are SIMD friendly. Thing is those PC cpu are power of 2 more faster than say Xenon at that kind of of code.
If the devs kit includes really an A8 and the GPU is HD 6670 it would make a lot of sense for Sony to ship a custom Kaveri. Those APU should include Streamroller cores, it still not official but I expect those module to include 2 8 wide SIMD (instead of 4 wide) with only two modules the CPU should run around Xenon in every regard. I don't expect the CPU to be the more severe limitation (fillrate and plain shading power could be).
Some physics are obvious candidate for the GPU those, particles, etc. And for those stuffs GPU processing is already happening on the 360.

My gut says the HW won't be enough. So if Sony pulls a $200 box with the rumoured specs, and MS goes all guns blazing, then given the greater development emphasis on "next-gen features" like those listed above, the more expensive MS console would have the clear advantage to the point where if the Sony console can't keep up, and if those features becomes integral parts of the gameplay of those games, then the Sony console could even end up losing development support entirely down the line, especially given Xbox's proven ability to sell considerable quantities of 3rd party software.

I just think that the price of the box is only really important in terms of its relation to its competitor, given a reasonably meagre performance differential between the two. If at all there is a considerable gulf in HW performance then i truly believe that dev support, and thus consumer interest, will favour the more powerful box. This is all based on the establishement that graphics will be a less important factor (albeit still very important, however i'm accepting that we've hit a bit of a ceiling in terms of deminishing returns and dev budgets) in distinguishing games next-gen, which i believe it will.

In the end alot of graphics features can be faked, thus allowing the poorer perfoming boxes to keep up a bit, however physics and simulation will see a very noticable difference in quality given a gulf in performance between the next-gen consoles (and possibly even between console and PC). I dunno

I agree with that, Sony has no Kinect for now, may ship a less powerful hardware, etc. But they should avoid a frontal battle with MSFT. They can't keep up with MSFT subsiding power.
They should keep their online policies and evolve PSN+ into something different from Live.
They should also keep the platform opened in regard to HDD upgrade.
The system should require a HDD but they should ship one SKU without it (so costumers buy there own ?use an old existing one) so they can ship a low price SKU.
They should go out for the core gamers on a budget and do it for cheap.
Then they should take time to come with properly designed and marketed peripheral. No rushing like imho Move looked to be.

Sony has to reclaim core gamers in Europe and Japan and take its chance in US (for those on a budget).

[BoardBonobo]

Looking at all the rumours about Sony's move towards using off the shelf PC hardware to create the PS4, and the fact that the Xbox has always been a PC at heart, I was struck by the realisation that Alienware has already beaten them to it.

The new X51 is basically a slightly more open spec console. If it had either a Sony or MS badge on it they could probably pass it off as the 'next' gen.!? Though it's slightly over priced. If the hardware was more tightly integrated with a fast linux kernel and the CPU and RAM dialled back some to reduce the cost? Could this be the benchmark to compare the next gen to?

[mrcorbo]

Originally Posted by BoardBonobo

Looking at all the rumours about Sony's move towards using off the shelf PC hardware to create the PS4, and the fact that the Xbox has always been a PC at heart, I was struck by the realisation that Alienware has already beaten them to it.

The new X51 is basically a slightly more open spec console. If it had either a Sony or MS badge on it they could probably pass it off as the 'next' gen.!? Though it's slightly over priced. If the hardware was more tightly integrated with a fast linux kernel and the CPU and RAM dialled back some to reduce the cost? Could this be the benchmark to compare the next gen to?

The PC platform is restricted from peak efficiency by the need to maintain compatibility, both software and hardware-wise. I think there is more than enough of an advantage to using PC-derived parts that are tweaked for efficiency/performance as part of a custom design over using a straight PC-based design to justify the additional expense.

[novcze]

Originally Posted by BoardBonobo

Looking at all the rumours about Sony's move towards using off the shelf PC hardware to create the PS4

I heard rumour about x86 and AMD, not off-the-shelf PC hardware ... that is big difference in my opinion

[BoardBonobo]

Originally Posted by novcze

I heard rumour about x86 and AMD, not off-the-shelf PC hardware ... that is big difference in my opinion

I though it was AMD APU and AMD GPU even with minor modifications they are still off the shelf components. And considering Sonys financial situation and the Vita design (being off the shelf components) I highly doubt they will risk hundreds of millions this time round looking at highly customised parts.

Besides this time round they already have a hardcore gaming fanbase. Now they need to reach out to the casual gamer and beyond to users who don't game but are looking for media boxes that do lots of things that can either add these features to their TV's or can enhance their current experience. It's going to be all about the software and services and Sony are on the back foot to MS in this regard. I would hazard a guess that creating a competitive software platform is where they will be spending the money, not on exotic hardware.

[-tkf-]

Originally Posted by BoardBonobo

I though it was AMD APU and AMD GPU even with minor modifications they are still off the shelf components. And considering Sonys financial situation and the Vita design (being off the shelf components) I highly doubt they will risk hundreds of millions this time round looking at highly customised parts.

Besides this time round they already have a hardcore gaming fanbase. Now they need to reach out to the casual gamer and beyond to users who don't game but are looking for media boxes that do lots of things that can either add these features to their TV's or can enhance their current experience. It's going to be all about the software and services and Sony are on the back foot to MS in this regard. I would hazard a guess that creating a competitive software platform is where they will be spending the money, not on exotic hardware.

The services on the 360, what are those exactly? Yes i am serious, i finally have a 360 and i would like to know what i am missing..

The PS4... it's all about being on time, and being able to communicate in a modern fashion via the internet, a competitive price and hardware that delivers from day one. If the rumours are true then the hardware may be based on PC components as in bigger or smalle "fragments" from GPUS and CPUS, but not anything that you can put in a pc today, it's still going to be custom designed and made just for the consoles. The difference is that it's not a CPU made from the ground up just to be in a console.

The reason we keep on using CPU's and GPU's as of today as reference is that we know what can be done today, with that in mind we can at least expect the same performance in the next gen but more likely more. This is all imho of course.

[BoardBonobo]

Originally Posted by -tkf-

The services on the 360, what are those exactly? Yes i am serious, i finally have a 360 and i would like to know what i am missing..

I was generalising in this regard. My PS3 primarily gets used for Netflix, iPlayer, Lovefilm etc by the family (90% of the time) and sometimes for games (me 10%). In terms of the services it delivers they are adequate for our expectations of it now. Obviously the 360 has Sky etc. And MS are working very hard at getting more and more media services ready for the 360 and onwards.

But since I got this gen of consoles I've also bought a iPad 2, iPad 3 , Kindle, Transformer Prime, and the Vita. Now the whole family have different expectations about what hardware can deliver in terms of services. And this is where, in general, Sony is weaker than MS; not through inability but through experience. MS is already having to fight the always on, socially networked, access everything fight with Windows 8, they've got a head start on Sony already.

Sony has never been a great software developer. They were always too interested in trying to lock you into particular hardware choices. I often think they should hand the entire of the interface design to a studio like Media Molecule. Little Big Desktop!

If Sony, as a whole, good leverage all it's media assets onto the SEN that would be a great start. Imagine being able to watch a movie on the day it was released but without having to queue up or miss out because you couldn't make it for some reason.

The Vita is the shining beacon of Sony's weakness. It's an absolutely amazing piece of kit but it's being completely let down by Sony and a complete drought of decent software and games.

The PS4... it's all about being on time, and being able to communicate in a modern fashion via the internet, a competitive price and hardware that delivers from day one. If the rumours are true then the hardware may be based on PC components as in bigger or smalle "fragments" from GPUS and CPUS, but not anything that you can put in a pc today, it's still going to be custom designed and made just for the consoles. The difference is that it's not a CPU made from the ground up just to be in a console.

The reason we keep on using CPU's and GPU's as of today as reference is that we know what can be done today, with that in mind we can at least expect the same performance in the next gen but more likely more. This is all imho of course.

I think it's going to be a little more generic than esoteric. No more CELL or Emotion Engine etc. But more RSX done properly. Sony simply hasn't got the finances or support to extend themselves like they did with the PS3. This whole generation is just going to be a lot safer and simpler.

[stofcri]

Hi,
You really think that SONY is gonna dump all their works in the CELL and RSX and collaborate with AMD (who is not,by far, the best of the known CPU manufacturers these days)?What about their contracts with IBM and N'Vidia??
I'm really sceptical about that rumours .It implies billions dollars in R&D dumped ,just like that...Sounds like a nonsense ,financially ...

[BRiT]

And exactly how much work did Sony put into RSX?

As far as contracts with IBM and Nvidia, Sony is not being forced to produce any particular amount for any particular time duration.

[-tkf-]

Originally Posted by BoardBonobo

I was generalising in this regard. My PS3 primarily gets used for Netflix, iPlayer, Lovefilm etc by the family (90% of the time) and sometimes for games (me 10%). In terms of the services it delivers they are adequate for our expectations of it now. Obviously the 360 has Sky etc. And MS are working very hard at getting more and more media services ready for the 360 and onwards.

But since I got this gen of consoles I've also bought a iPad 2, iPad 3 , Kindle, Transformer Prime, and the Vita. Now the whole family have different expectations about what hardware can deliver in terms of services. And this is where, in general, Sony is weaker than MS; not through inability but through experience. MS is already having to fight the always on, socially networked, access everything fight with Windows 8, they've got a head start on Sony already.

Sony has never been a great software developer. They were always too interested in trying to lock you into particular hardware choices. I often think they should hand the entire of the interface design to a studio like Media Molecule. Little Big Desktop!

If Sony, as a whole, good leverage all it's media assets onto the SEN that would be a great start. Imagine being able to watch a movie on the day it was released but without having to queue up or miss out because you couldn't make it for some reason.

The Vita is the shining beacon of Sony's weakness. It's an absolutely amazing piece of kit but it's being completely let down by Sony and a complete drought of decent software and games.

I think it's going to be a little more generic than esoteric. No more CELL or Emotion Engine etc. But more RSX done properly. Sony simply hasn't got the finances or support to extend themselves like they did with the PS3. This whole generation is just going to be a lot safer and simpler.

I think we had a discussion about Sony's incredible lack of vision and desire to always do things wrong in another thread, the short story, i agree with you that Sony have everything to win, problem is they arent trying to win. I don't agree with the software part, they can and should be able to create the needed software to bind everything together. And if needed they could find the needed partners/partner if they lack Cloud experience. If i was Sony i would do the following..

Call larry page and sergey brin and ask for a cloud
Sync every device they make from here and onwards with a cloud service, for free.
Use their significant strength in music and movie to push every device they make.
Open up everything they can about their products to 3rd party developers.
Be very open about every god damn standard there is in the world when it comes to streaming music/movies and share data. MKV? but of course!

In Microsofts case i still think that they like their little garden of theirs to much, they are like Apple focused on their own solutions, but unlike Apple Microsoft just makes some stuff that is piss poorly executed eventhough they should be able to make some great stuff.

They wonder why their media center isn't used by more people.. well, how about looking at the software?
I use it to record some stuff for the kids, then i jump through loops, downloads 3rd party apps and in general enjoy myself cutting my wrists on the file format that only microsoft uses, for no apparent reason other than they are being Microsoft Just because i want to see those files on something that isn't a Windows Media PC. Media Player? should be renamed to Microsoft Format Player with the worst UI since DOS.

As you might have guessed i am not to sure about Microsoft's ability to create a better experience with Windows 8

[Shifty Geezer]

Originally Posted by -tkf-

As you might have guessed i am not to sure about Microsoft's ability to create a better experience with Windows 8

They should be able to. Microsoft excel at copying good ideas from other companies. there's nothing anyone else can do that MS couldn't implement and could be expected to do so if they go that route. Sony OTOH have terrible software and no proven track record of copying the best ideas invented by others, so I find it much harder to believe that Sony will offer a cohesive, easy, welcoming software platform from them.

[BoardBonobo]

Originally Posted by stofcri

Hi,
You really think that SONY is gonna dump all their works in the CELL and RSX and collaborate with AMD (who is not,by far, the best of the known CPU manufacturers these days)?What about their contracts with IBM and N'Vidia??
I'm really sceptical about that rumours .It implies billions dollars in R&D dumped ,just like that...Sounds like a nonsense ,financially ...

Sounds like a $5.7 billion loss to me Though obviously not all that is lost R&D, just a whole lot of mistakes and poor marketing.

RSX isn't worth keeping as it stands and there isn't an awful lot of headroom to improve it. The best improvement would be to replace it with something else entirely. Which is what they are doing.

CELL is a favourite of mine and I kind of hoped Sony would continue with it for the PS4. Especially now that there are such mature libraries for it. But I think they want third party studios to hit the ground running and not rely on first party outings like they have for the PS3.

[mrcorbo]

Originally Posted by -tkf-

I use it to record some stuff for the kids, then i jump through loops, downloads 3rd party apps and in general enjoy myself cutting my wrists on the file format that only microsoft uses, for no apparent reason other than they are being Microsoft Just because i want to see those files on something that isn't a Windows Media PC. Media Player? should be renamed to Microsoft Format Player with the worst UI since DOS.

As you might have guessed i am not to sure about Microsoft's ability to create a better experience with Windows 8

I'm surprised to see you post this. I would expect you to know better. DRM is the reason you have to deal with a custom file format for WMC recordings and it's also the reason that Sony embracing Matroska is a pipe dream. I'm unaware of a non-proprietary file format that supports the necessary DRM for content owners to allow for recording and sharing of recordings.

As an aside, I recently added a SSD to my desktop and it's incredible how snappy WMC is now. As good as any CE device I've used.

[mrcorbo]

Originally Posted by BoardBonobo

CELL is a favourite of mine and I kind of hoped Sony would continue with it for the PS4.

What is it that you liked so much about Cell?

[Grall]

Originally Posted by mrcorbo

What is it that you liked so much about Cell?

For me, the brute peak performance specs. Massive on- and off-chip bandwidth and float performance. The latter hasn't been approached, much less matched by any other CPU until quite recently AFAIK.

It was a wild, reckless leap, a cutting edge silicon engineering effort. The geek in me really geeks out at stuff like that. Then the harsh reality comes crashing down of course, it wasn't the most ideal solution for a lot of problems, but it was a bold try to reach very high performance all the same. I will always applaud that.

[BoardBonobo]

Originally Posted by mrcorbo

What is it that you liked so much about Cell?

From my perspective, AI programming\research, the accessible parallel architecture made it a perfect fit, doesn't matter how screwy it is. You get used to bending your head around exotic architectures, it's an occupational hazard.

So you can blame Turing for that one! I still have some Transputer boards knocking around somewhere and I was so tempted when Danny Hillis was selling off the Thinking Machines kit, if I'd had the space...

But I just like CELL for it's parallelism; as GPUs move towards CPU, the CELL was the only CPU moving towards GPU. It was a bold move in conservative market where old rope is exceedingly expensive.

[mrcorbo]

Originally Posted by Grall

For me, the brute peak performance specs. Massive on- and off-chip bandwidth and float performance. The latter hasn't been approached, much less matched by any other CPU until quite recently AFAIK.

It was a wild, reckless leap, a cutting edge silicon engineering effort. The geek in me really geeks out at stuff like that. Then the harsh reality comes crashing down of course, it wasn't the most ideal solution for a lot of problems, but it was a bold try to reach very high performance all the same. I will always applaud that.

Originally Posted by BoardBonobo

From my perspective, AI programming\research, the accessible parallel architecture made it a perfect fit, doesn't matter how screwy it is. You get used to bending your head around exotic architectures, it's an occupational hazard.

So you can blame Turing for that one! I still have some Transputer boards knocking around somewhere and I was so tempted when Danny Hillis was selling off the Thinking Machines kit, if I'd had the space...

But I just like CELL for it's parallelism; as GPUs move towards CPU, the CELL was the only CPU moving towards GPU. It was a bold move in conservative market where old rope is exceedingly expensive.

AMD's APU roadmap as they implement their HSA initiatives looks an awful lot like a better implementation of the paradigm Cell was based on to me. I don't understand why people who were enthusiastic about Cell would be unimpressed by the direction AMD will be evolving their APU concept over the next 2 years.

[Grall]

I've no idea where AMD will take their APUs, I haven't bothered with checking out any roadmaps or nuttin because APUs are permanently relegated towards the lower end of the market so hence uninteresting to me (the antithesis of Cell), and also, AMD has disappointed repeatedly on CPU performance for years now and is bleeding money like crazy, so who knows if they'll even be around to make good on those plans.

[mrcorbo]

Originally Posted by Grall

I've no idea where AMD will take their APUs, I haven't bothered with checking out any roadmaps or nuttin because APUs are permanently relegated towards the lower end of the market so hence uninteresting to me (the antithesis of Cell), and also, AMD has disappointed repeatedly on CPU performance for years now and is bleeding money like crazy, so who knows if they'll even be around to make good on those plans.

You should, unless your OK with dismissing something from a position of ignorance.

[BoardBonobo]

Originally Posted by mrcorbo

AMD's APU roadmap as they implement their HSA initiatives looks an awful lot like a better implementation of the paradigm Cell was based on to me. I don't understand why people who were enthusiastic about Cell would be unimpressed by the direction AMD will be evolving their APU concept over the next 2 years.

They have a fairly interesting future roadmap but I am more interested in the kit you can get today. I'm, currently, looking at Xilinix, Freescale, and Tilera hardware but my next project is based on something a whole lot smaller.

Moons ago I built a Beowulf cluster from 486DX100's (IBM's blue lightening!) which was quite a beast at the time! Now I want to build myself a cluster using Raspberry Pi's. That's why I'm liking the route that ARM are taking more than AMD.

[steviep]

Originally Posted by stofcri

Hi,
You really think that SONY is gonna dump all their works in the CELL and RSX and collaborate with AMD

Yes. Yes I do

Originally Posted by Grall

I've no idea where AMD will take their APUs, I haven't bothered with checking out any roadmaps or nuttin because APUs are permanently relegated towards the lower end of the market so hence uninteresting to me (the antithesis of Cell), and also, AMD has disappointed repeatedly on CPU performance for years now and is bleeding money like crazy, so who knows if they'll even be around to make good on those plans.

How would you feel if one of these APUs (fully supporting HSA) ends up in the PS4? (and maybe even a different next gen console)

[mrcorbo]

Originally Posted by BoardBonobo

They have a fairly interesting future roadmap but I am more interested in the kit you can get today. I'm, currently, looking at Xilinix, Freescale, and Tilera hardware but my next project is based on something a whole lot smaller.

Moons ago I built a Beowulf cluster from 486DX100's (IBM's blue lightening!) which was quite a beast at the time! Now I want to build myself a cluster using Raspberry Pi's. That's why I'm liking the route that ARM are taking more than AMD.

I don't follow. You said you liked Cell because it had an accessible parallel architecture. HSA is an effort to create a more accessible parallel architecture and ARM have nothing comparable to the stream processors AMD are putting on their APUs now, never mind what's coming in 2013 and 2014. I'm beginning to think you like are attracted to unique architectures for the sake of their uniqueness, not because they have any real advantages.

[-tkf-]

Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer

They should be able to. Microsoft excel at copying good ideas from other companies. there's nothing anyone else can do that MS couldn't implement and could be expected to do so if they go that route. Sony OTOH have terrible software and no proven track record of copying the best ideas invented by others, so I find it much harder to believe that Sony will offer a cohesive, easy, welcoming software platform from them.

Sony have themselves to thank for the mess they are in, on the other hand they have everything, and i really mean everything to win by cleaning up their mess. But sadly it's very unlikely

Microsoft have all the needed resources and experience to pull everything off, and a history of not doing it, they should have introduced Steam, they should have had the mobile player market, every TV should support windows media center, etc etc.

Originally Posted by mrcorbo

I'm surprised to see you post this. I would expect you to know better. DRM is the reason you have to deal with a custom file format for WMC recordings and it's also the reason that Sony embracing Matroska is a pipe dream. I'm unaware of a non-proprietary file format that supports the necessary DRM for content owners to allow for recording and sharing of recordings.

These files are not DRM protected, and i love pipedreams

[mrcorbo]

Originally Posted by -tkf-

These files are not DRM protected, and i love pipedreams

It doesn't really make sense, though, for them to use one file format for DRM-requiring content and a different one for DRM-free content. It makes more sense to use one that allows for both.