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Old 28-Mar-2012, 22:33   #1
dobwal
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Default News and Rumours: PS4

ModNote: Might as well have a rumours thread for this now.

Out holiday 2013.

Back compatibility removed because of x64 cpu and Southern Island gpu.

New games tied to PSN account and one has to pay an additional fee to unlock used games or be limited to a trial experience.

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2...e-accounts.ars
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Old 28-Mar-2012, 22:37   #2
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It was posted in the prediction thread, but the source was different. Might be worth having its own thread if people want to discuss the interface implications.

I personally would love to hear how many people are going to skip the ps4 if it lacks BC.
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Old 28-Mar-2012, 22:42   #3
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Is the dude describing an early devkit or the final production system ? ^_^

"No used game" sounds dangerous unless they are considering other changes like pricing.

If they build the thing from scratch, they can presumably add B/C via addition hardware (i.e., if the consumer pays more).
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Old 28-Mar-2012, 23:18   #4
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I personally would love to hear how many people are going to skip the ps4 if it lacks BC.
None.
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Old 28-Mar-2012, 23:50   #5
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Originally Posted by patsu View Post
Is the dude describing an early devkit or the final production system ? ^_^

"No used game" sounds dangerous unless they are considering other changes like pricing.

If they build the thing from scratch, they can presumably add B/C via addition hardware (i.e., if the consumer pays more).
Exactly. The publishers will be surprised how many $60 sales they lose if they implement this kind of plan.

Has the various Online Pass schemes affected used games sales? Or have they sold a lot of these online passes as a result of people buying used games?

All I see these days are that new games are discounted more quickly, even at launch with things like gift cards towards future purchases. Of course a lot of that has to do with being at the tail end of a generation and games prices not holding up as long. This happened with the previous generations too.

I wonder if someone will sue on the basis that this scheme would circumvent the First Sale doctrine.

But the other thing is, if one console has this kind of scheme and the others don't, there could be a competitive advantage, assuming equal 3rd-party publisher support.

I have to go back again to mobile devices offering an alternative, both for gaming as well as other entertainment. The way they're selling and sucking up a lot of digital entertainment spending dollars, it's amazing that the console gaming industry would risk antagonizing their customers with a scheme like this.
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Old 29-Mar-2012, 01:14   #6
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I re-read Kotaku's article. The mechanism is not anti-used game.

Quote:
If you then decide to trade that disc in, the pre-owned customer picking it up will be limited in what they can do. While our sources were unclear on how exactly the pre-owned customer side of things would work, it's believed used games will be limited to a trial mode or some other form of content restriction, with consumers having to pay a fee to unlock/register the full game.

This would allow used games to continue to be sold at outlets such as GameStop, while also appeasing major publishers who would no longer have to implement their own haphazard approaches to "online passes".
The system still allows the users to trade games. However Sony and partners now have an enforced mechanism to take a cut from used game transactions. This means that GameStop will have to adjust/reduce their used game price to appease the consumers.

If the system is fully automated, this also means that Sony and partners will effectively take a cut from eBay (or other resellers') used game trades.
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Old 29-Mar-2012, 01:20   #7
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I still can't figure out how they plan to identify that a retail game has been used, short of serializing every disc. Unless these are writable discs, and the system will actually write data back to the disc.

In which case I give it about a day before you can download a program on your PC that will blank that space out again.
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Old 29-Mar-2012, 01:27   #8
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I still can't figure out how they plan to identify that a retail game has been used, short of serializing every disc. Unless these are writable discs, and the system will actually write data back to the disc.

In which case I give it about a day before you can download a program on your PC that will blank that space out again.
I believe blu-rays are currently serialized thanks to managed copy; no hardware maker supports it but all blu-ray movie discs produced after 2009 (iirc) have to. And if they did writable discs, it'd be in an area normal drives can't read or write, and/or it'd be a material that could only be written to once (I believe Sony patented something like that prior to the PS3's launch).

But if they're doing it like Steam where retail discs are tied to an online account, they're more likely to be serialized.
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Old 29-Mar-2012, 01:40   #9
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I believe blu-rays are currently serialized thanks to managed copy; no hardware maker supports it but all blu-ray movie discs produced after 2009 (iirc) have to. And if they did writable discs, it'd be in an area normal drives can't read or write, and/or it'd be a material that could only be written to once (I believe Sony patented something like that prior to the PS3's launch).

But if they're doing it like Steam where retail discs are tied to an online account, they're more likely to be serialized.
Yeah... a 2006 Blu-ray related patent. Can't seem to google it.
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Old 29-Mar-2012, 01:50   #10
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Found this in an article:

"A disc ready for managed copy will essentially include a link on it directing the Blu-ray player to an authentication server. Once a user chooses the option to make a copy, the Blu-ray player connects online to an authorization server. Discs are serialized, and the authentication server will determine if a copy is allowed. "

So looks like individual discs are identifiable.
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Old 29-Mar-2012, 01:52   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by androvsky View Post
I believe blu-rays are currently serialized thanks to managed copy; no hardware maker supports it but all blu-ray movie discs produced after 2009 (iirc) have to. And if they did writable discs, it'd be in an area normal drives can't read or write, and/or it'd be a material that could only be written to once (I believe Sony patented something like that prior to the PS3's launch).

But if they're doing it like Steam where retail discs are tied to an online account, they're more likely to be serialized.
Managed what? They never allowed you to do a full rip, have they?

It's only because the DRM was compromised that people are able to rip Blu-Rays.

The other part of this rumor was support for 4k displays? If they do come out with that, they can't use the existing Blu-Ray disc, can they? Maybe they will have solid state media of some kind or a super Blu-Ray which allows these kinds of protections.


Is GameStop selling the used games with Online Passes any cheaper?
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Old 29-Mar-2012, 03:57   #12
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Managed what? They never allowed you to do a full rip, have they?

It's only because the DRM was compromised that people are able to rip Blu-Rays.
I don't think the studios have offered any Blu-ray Managed Copies. They implemented proprietary digital copy mechanisms (like the one used in AppleTV), and so-called standard UltraViolet copies.

Quote:
The other part of this rumor was support for 4k displays? If they do come out with that, they can't use the existing Blu-Ray disc, can they? Maybe they will have solid state media of some kind or a super Blu-Ray which allows these kinds of protections.
I think 4K is just a computing budget. It can mean a 4K display, or it can mean 4 x 1080p screens.

4K movies are used in digital cinema. Sony claimed that they can do it with a multi-layer BD disc.

Quote:
Is GameStop selling the used games with Online Passes any cheaper?
GameStop execs mentioned that they will adjust the price if demand drops. I don't think Online Pass is prevalent enough yet.
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Old 29-Mar-2012, 05:56   #13
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I don't think the studios have offered any Blu-ray Managed Copies. They implemented proprietary digital copy mechanisms (like the one used in AppleTV), and so-called standard UltraViolet copies.
It was mentioned a podcast with someone who authors blu-rays for a small studio complaining about how they all have to have the XML file that points to a server that may or may not exist, and there's no way to test it. I also remember reading a bunch of news stories about it too, back in the day. It's just that it's impossible to buy a piece of hardware that is licensed to do the actual managed copy (which is really strange, since it was the hardware makers pushing for it...).

Apparently it was originally late 2009, got pushed back to March 2010. I can do more digging later...
http://www.netblender.com/main/resou...-requirements/
Quote:
What this means for discs you author and replicate today:

If you are sending a Blu-ray disc for replication now, you need to do two things:

Include a Managed Copy URL in your disc (you specify this during the authoring process)
Purchase an ISAN code and insert that number into your disc (also during the authoring process).

NetBlender DoStudio, Sonic Scenarist and Sony Blu-print support these features.
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Old 29-Mar-2012, 06:42   #14
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"No used game" sounds dangerous unless they are considering other changes like pricing.
I am calling it now: Industry collusion. The major pubs basically told MS/Sony make it happen and they bilaterally agreed they would both do it if the other did as well. Sony was reported to have had been investing in tech for this when the PS3 launched and MS has recently been in the news for such.

It is going to happen.
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Old 29-Mar-2012, 07:08   #15
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So in the face of 99 cent or ad supported games, they're going to offer only new games or used games that they have to pay for twice. Which in either case costs up to 60 times as much.

Hmm, they overestimate the draw of "core" games.
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Old 29-Mar-2012, 07:53   #16
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Sounds like a completely and utterly stupid idea, the amount of bitching and whining that something like this will course is going to reach new levels. Buy a used game, take it home.. find out it doesn't work..

And i can see consumer protections groups getting ready to sue everyone to hell and back for doing something this shitty. And while i am using the stupid word, the article itself has a good reason for this being bullshit.

Quote:
.A 2010 study found that 22 percent of PS3 users in the US had not connected their system to the Internet
Lets take away customers from our platforms because we are stupid.

I really hope greed will crush them all.
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Old 29-Mar-2012, 09:26   #17
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In which case I give it about a day before you can download a program on your PC that will blank that space out again.
There are certianly ways to introduce write-once systems that can't be (ordinarily) be reversed.
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Old 29-Mar-2012, 09:47   #18
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Sounds like a completely and utterly stupid idea, the amount of bitching and whining that something like this will course is going to reach new levels. Buy a used game, take it home.. find out it doesn't work..

And i can see consumer protections groups getting ready to sue everyone to hell and back for doing something this shitty. And while i am using the stupid word, the article itself has a good reason for this being bullshit.

Lets take away customers from our platforms because we are stupid.

I really hope greed will crush them all.
Whilst i think you're grossly overestimating the reaction to a system like this (especially if both MS and Sony implement it - which is very very likely), I do agree that the fact that the proposed system requires the console to connected to the internet is clear proof that this rumour is bogus... or at least a misunderstood/mistranslated description of an actual system that might be present in next gen consoles.

I think the main point with pre-owned games is that games bought new will still have re-sale value with a system like the one decribed. This is as far as I understand the main concern with gamers that take advantage of the used games industry. Buying used games has never been the issue, as even now, months after a games release gamers can either buy a game deeply discounted new or for a little less pre-owned. From the gamers perspective they will always have the choice to buy the game new for cheap or pre-owned for cheap but with an added fee to unlock it. Obviously, it benefits the platform holders and publishers as it makes older games bought new more attractive than the pre-owned versions, but for someone like me who's never needed to buy a pre-owned game this gen, as games prices sink so fast these days i'll just carry on buying new at deep discount and supporting the industry by it.

I think the big thing to bear in mind is that game have always followed a pricing curve. With or without the used games industry, publishers desire to maximise the investment in their products. They understand that they cannot justify trying to flog a game at full price months after its release when gamers will be all eyes on those hyped up new releases. Therefore older games will always be discounted. There's no reason to fear that this will change. A system like this will only attempt to shift the distribution of dollars from the pre-owned industry out of retailers pockets and into the game's creators. It's fair and probably the most painless system we've heard described so far. Gamers can still sell their old games, using them to offset the cost of new games. This won't change. Those price-conscious conmsumers that buy pre-owned games exclusively however (thus not contributing dollars to the industry at all), will now have more reason to pick up titles new for a similar price. The only thing to change will be the buying habits of this consumer as they will either have to fork out a little more for the newer games new, buy pre-owned and pay the fee, or wait a little while as the game they want comes down its price curve and pick it up later for cheap. This consumer will have to be a little more patient, but it's a patience that would benefit the entire console industry overall.

The only problem I can see with this system is that it may hurt new games re-sale value, and more importantly it will mean that gamers who play exclusively off-line will be limited to buying new everytime (doesn't have to be at launch though, so won't always be $60).
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Old 29-Mar-2012, 09:59   #19
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Sounds like a completely and utterly stupid idea, the amount of bitching and whining that something like this will course is going to reach new levels. Buy a used game, take it home.. find out it doesn't work..
I agree. It would be impossible to implement.

What constitutes a used game ? Do you tie the disc-ID to the console or to the account? Either way it will cause an uproar, imagine:

Play a game in your living room and find out you can't play it in your bedroom.
Or play it on one console, then have your kid take it to his room, log on with a different online ID and find that he can't play it.

The only way to curb the used games market is DD.

Cheers
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Old 29-Mar-2012, 10:20   #20
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This is exactly what some of us have been talking about in the Alternative Distribution thread.

Only problem is alienating offline only gamers. Using flash or write-once disks you could even have used games "recharged" by customers or retailers (with a cut to pubs) so both online and offline gamers are accommodated.

On Xbox I believe a DD game is tied to the console it's downloaded on and the account you buy it with. Multiple people in the same house can play it and you can take the game round a friend's house so long as you log onto Live. So much better than a scabby-as-fuck one-user-only system. No reason you can't do the same thing through a physically distributed game.
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Old 29-Mar-2012, 10:44   #21
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I agree. It would be impossible to implement.

What constitutes a used game ? Do you tie the disc-ID to the console or to the account? Either way it will cause an uproar, imagine:

Play a game in your living room and find out you can't play it in your bedroom.
Or play it on one console, then have your kid take it to his room, log on with a different online ID and find that he can't play it.
There are probably a few ways to do it. XBL assigns 1 user key and 1 system key for each protected title. In PSN, a user can activate up to 2 home consoles and 2 portable consoles for gaming.

Presumably the game developers can also implement their own rules. e.g., The GT5 DLC track is tied to a PSN account. However, it can be played by the owner together with other PSN users in the same network session even if they did not buy the track.

Cars in the DLC are also tied to the PSN account. As a result, other PSN accounts on the same PS3 could not use the cars. Polyphony patched the game so that we can transfer the DLC cars to the in-game dealership. Now everyone on that PS3 can purchase cars from the local dealership.
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Old 29-Mar-2012, 11:08   #22
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There's some sense to unifying the DRM on DD and physical game copies. Then physical copies just become another conduit for exactly the same experience but with some flexibility to operate offline.

The Xbox system should transfer quite well. Apart from upsetting lots of people at first, that is.
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Old 29-Mar-2012, 11:35   #23
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I agree. It would be impossible to implement.

What constitutes a used game ? Do you tie the disc-ID to the console or to the account? Either way it will cause an uproar, imagine:

Play a game in your living room and find out you can't play it in your bedroom.
Or play it on one console, then have your kid take it to his room, log on with a different online ID and find that he can't play it.

The only way to curb the used games market is DD.

Cheers
Well considering the cornerstone to all this is that all games will be tied to a PSN account (or XBox Live account), it would be relatively easy to manage.

Similar to PC gaming, physical retail games can just come with a serial code which is registered on the system and henceforth the game is associated with that user. Steam enabled games have been doing this for over 5 years now so the mechanism is mature and well understood.

The only difference is that if there is going to be a tradeable used games market. That serial code likely won't allow you to access a DD copy of the same game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by function View Post
Only problem is alienating offline only gamers. Using flash or write-once disks you could even have used games "recharged" by customers or retailers (with a cut to pubs) so both online and offline gamers are accommodated.
But that minority is growing smaller and smaller by the day. The new smartphone craze is getting people used to being online all the time. As I mentioned in one of the threads in the PC forum, it won't be long until almost all people in their 20's won't even know what the world was like before you had always on internet connectivity. At least those in developed nations.

How much you want to bet that there's a fairly likely chance that Playstation next and Xbox next will include a cellular SIM card slot? Or have the option for a cellular modem? Suddenly everyone with a smartphone or cellular wireless data plan has instant access through their console.

Regards,
SB
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Old 29-Mar-2012, 11:45   #24
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I am calling it now: Industry collusion. The major pubs basically told MS/Sony make it happen and they bilaterally agreed they would both do it if the other did as well. Sony was reported to have had been investing in tech for this when the PS3 launched and MS has recently been in the news for such.

It is going to happen.
It seems likely. Certainly, it would be silly at this point for console designers not to build a system that is capable of working this way at least. You can always decide if you're going to use it for all titles, or only for certain publishers, regions, etc.

Personally it would be a step forwards for me mostly as it would mean you can buy a game on or offline, and if the disc brakes, or you just want the DD version on your harddrive and not have to put in the disc, that's all facilitated no matter where you buy it. However not being able to install a game once server side / account support is gone remains an issue. I hope journalists will ask serious questions about these ...

Games as a service, means that service can be suspended.
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Old 29-Mar-2012, 11:59   #25
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How much you want to bet that there's a fairly likely chance that Playstation next and Xbox next will include a cellular SIM card slot? Or have the option for a cellular modem? Suddenly everyone with a smartphone or cellular wireless data plan has instant access through their console.

Regards,
SB
This is a very interesting suggestion actually. Perhaps a negotiated deal with the cellular networks for a free very low data rate service, constrained to doing authentication of games and other low bandwidth tasks only could be the answer. Think the Amazon Kindle.

That way gamers could benefit from being able to see their trophies/achievments/userdata uploaded/downloaded real-time without a home broadband connection. As well as granting the consoles a means to authenticate discs remotely without the user needing to manually connect the console to a home broadband service.
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