[function]

Originally Posted by bgassassin

pj/function - Everything I had seen awhile back indicated the G5 used as the alpha kit had an x800 (XT). Reviewing you "nitpickiness" pj, what I'm proposing is similar.

I know X800/850 based cards were used in pre-final, G5 based 360 development kits, but I had thought there were 9800 based kits before that. There's some indication from the likes of The Inquirer that they did exist (they were talking about G5 and 9800 based dev kits some months before the x800 was released).

BRiT - I tell you about your "base power strictly by size" viewpoint. It's flawed IMO, yet you continue to run with it (on GAF as well for those who don't know). I don't think the size is that relevant since first I'm not saying it's going to have something equivalent to a 150W+ GPU. Using VLIW4 would also help reduce transistors (I focused on 640 by the way). With the current case design it's bigger than the Wii, the second vent is bigger and two smaller ones were added. It isn't compensating for an internal HD. The optical drive is more than likely not bulky like Wii's.

The Intake vents and fan are about same size on the Wuu case as they were on the GC. Unless that fan is spinning a lot faster than on the GC and/or the heatsink is more expensive/sophisticated so as to be better at transferring heat from the chip(s?) to the air, then you're looking at similar heat output from the chips.

I don't think Nintendo would want much (if any) more fan noise, so aside from small airflow improvements from better fan design that leaves you with only more expensive cooling to fall back on. I don't know how much extra mileage you could get from that, but I don't think Nintendo would want to spend a lot on it.

The Wu looks really interesting, but I'm not expecting a large step up from the PS360.

[AlStrong]

Originally Posted by function

The Wu looks really interesting, but I'm not expecting a large step up from the PS360.

Define "large".

[BRiT]

Originally Posted by bgassassin

BRiT - I tell you about your "base power strictly by size" viewpoint. It's flawed IMO, yet you continue to run with it (on GAF as well for those who don't know).

Surely you are confused. I do not post on GAF (nor would I ever).

[bgassassin]

Originally Posted by function

I know X800/850 based cards were used in pre-final, G5 based 360 development kits, but I had thought there were 9800 based kits before that. There's some indication from the likes of The Inquirer that they did exist (they were talking about G5 and 9800 based dev kits some months before the x800 was released).



The Intake vents and fan are about same size on the Wuu case as they were on the GC. Unless that fan is spinning a lot faster than on the GC and/or the heatsink is more expensive/sophisticated so as to be better at transferring heat from the chip(s?) to the air, then you're looking at similar heat output from the chips.

I don't think Nintendo would want much (if any) more fan noise, so aside from small airflow improvements from better fan design that leaves you with only more expensive cooling to fall back on. I don't know how much extra mileage you could get from that, but I don't think Nintendo would want to spend a lot on it.

The Wu looks really interesting, but I'm not expecting a large step up from the PS360.

I did see a couple of mentions about the 9800 a week or so ago when I first looked at all this, but went with the x800 due to more references. So if you're saying that also I would believe there is merit to that.

The thing about that comparison is that we don't know the threshold of what the GC or Wii could handle. Wii's TDP is comparable to some tablets and it clearly has more space to work with. And like I mentioned they added (so far) a couple of smaller vents.

Originally Posted by BRiT

Surely you are confused. I do not post on GAF (nor would I ever).

I'll take your word for it. There was a Mr. Brit who would say that also. My apologies.

[MDX]

Originally Posted by bgassassin

With the current case design it's bigger than the Wii, the second vent is bigger and two smaller ones were added. It isn't compensating for an internal HD. The optical drive is more than likely not bulky just like Wii's.

Also to add that this system is designed to lay flat and not vertical.
I can only guess they didnt allow for the other option, like the Wii, to control
the flow of heat.

[function]

Originally Posted by AlStrong

Define "large".

That's a tough one. It can handle Crysis?

Erm, I know, here's my new benchmark: my mum wouldn't need digital foundry to see it looked better!

Originally Posted by bgassassin

The thing about that comparison is that we don't know the threshold of what the GC or Wii could handle. Wii's TDP is comparable to some tablets and it clearly has more space to work with. And like I mentioned they added (so far) a couple of smaller vents.

The GC had vents too. Looking the inside of the Wii and the GC, I'm guessing that the Wuu is supposed to draw air across an aluminium heatsink like the Wii, only a larger one than in the Wii. Maybe they can increase cooling efficiency over the GC by making the fins higher, closer, thinner and using a wider sink as in the Wii, but it'll still have to be quite a lot shorter. The position of the intakes relative to the exhaust looks strange, as air won't be drawn directly and evenly across the heatsink as in the GC and Wii. Maybe it's a temporary thing, or an interesting arrangement of heatpipes or something.

Any tablet with chips as hot as those in the Wii would not be passively cooled, and would be a thick and (under load) noisy beast probably running Windows 7 on an x86 processor and likely using one or more heatpipes. It wouldn't be the iPad kind of thing that most of us now think of when we talk about tablets.

[bgassassin]

Good point MDX that I haven't seen mentioned or considered myself. Add to that it's been a while since a console was restricted to one position.

Originally Posted by function

That's a tough one. It can handle Crysis?

Erm, I know, here's my new benchmark: my mum wouldn't need digital foundry to see it looked better!



The GC had vents too. Looking the inside of the Wii and the GC, I'm guessing that the Wuu is supposed to draw air across an aluminium heatsink like the Wii, only a larger one than in the Wii. Maybe they can increase cooling efficiency over the GC by making the fins higher, closer, thinner and using a wider sink as in the Wii, but it'll still have to be quite a lot shorter. The position of the intakes relative to the exhaust looks strange, as air won't be drawn directly and evenly across the heatsink as in the GC and Wii. Maybe it's a temporary thing, or an interesting arrangement of heatpipes or something.

Any tablet with chips as hot as those in the Wii would not be passively cooled, and would be a thick and (under load) noisy beast probably running Windows 7 on an x86 processor and likely using one or more heatpipes. It wouldn't be the iPad kind of thing that most of us now think of when we talk about tablets.

It sounds like you were looking at a pic of Wii U. I'm posting one to show the additional vents I'm referring to. There is a small one right above the main side vent and they added the other small one to the left. Wii didn't have that and GC box design made it easy for them to have the bigger vents.






As for power the GC was 39w and Wii ran at 18 watts. Some of the tablets I saw were between that. Ipad was 10w I believe for more comparison. So as of this post I still think both a Wii and GC case could handle more power if they wanted.

[Rangers]

That's a tough one. It can handle Crysis?

Well considering PS360 get some facsimile of Crysis in Crysis 2 and now Crysis 1 downloadable, and Wii U is supposed to be superior to PS360, I guess the answer is, yes?

[function]

Originally Posted by bgassassin

It sounds like you were looking at a pic of Wii U. I'm posting one to show the additional vents I'm referring to. There is a small one right above the main side vent and they added the other small one to the left. Wii didn't have that and GC box design made it easy for them to have the bigger vents.

I was talking about the total area of the intake vents. The intake on the GC was larger than the single largest intake on the WiiU, and about the same size as all the intakes on the WiiU combined. At least it looks that way, I only have a GC here and not a WiiU (of course).

On the GC not all the air pulled in flowed across the heatsink, so by using a wide, full height heatsink (or as much height as the case will allow on top of the board and chip package) they may be able to increase cooling using similar airflow despite having a shorter heatsink. Or maybe it can't, I don't know. But the Wu isn't going to have a 24W TDP GPU or anything crazy like that. I'd bet money on that.

As for power the GC was 39w and Wii ran at 18 watts. Some of the tablets I saw were between that. Ipad was 10w I believe for more comparison. So as of this post I still think both a Wii and GC case could handle more power if they wanted.

The GC did not draw 39W at the wall (it was closer to 20), and the stuff in the console box would have used less than the PSU drew from the wall.

The iPad won't have anything like 10W going through its processors. It's passively cooled and would probably self destruct. It has a charger that can supply 10W, but that's not the same thing. From what I can gather on that webs, the iPad A4 processor uses less than 2.5W and it's a SoC. You won't get a passively cooled tablet that generates anything like as much heat as the Wii.

[AlStrong]

Originally Posted by function

The iPad won't have anything like 10W going through its processors. It's passively cooled and would probably self destruct. It has a charger that can supply 10W, but that's not the same thing. From what I can gather on that webs, the iPad A4 processor uses less than 2.5W and it's a SoC. You won't get a passively cooled tablet that generates anything like as much heat as the Wii.

I would think the largest power draw might be the display itself, considering the processors aren't always at 100%, though I'm not entirely sure. And on that note, I wonder what battery life to expect of the WiiU controller.

[bgassassin]

That is a question I look forward to having answered as well AlStrong.

Originally Posted by function

I was talking about the total area of the intake vents. The intake on the GC was larger than the single largest intake on the WiiU, and about the same size as all the intakes on the WiiU combined. At least it looks that way, I only have a GC here and not a WiiU (of course).

On the GC not all the air pulled in flowed across the heatsink, so by using a wide, full height heatsink (or as much height as the case will allow on top of the board and chip package) they may be able to increase cooling using similar airflow despite having a shorter heatsink. Or maybe it can't, I don't know. But the Wu isn't going to have a 24W TDP GPU or anything crazy like that. I'd bet money on that.

I gotcha now. I don't think the GPU will either. I would guess that Nintendo's max target for Wii U would be something like 100w.

Originally Posted by function

The GC did not draw 39W at the wall (it was closer to 20), and the stuff in the console box would have used less than the PSU drew from the wall.

The iPad won't have anything like 10W going through its processors. It's passively cooled and would probably self destruct. It has a charger that can supply 10W, but that's not the same thing. From what I can gather on that webs, the iPad A4 processor uses less than 2.5W and it's a SoC. You won't get a passively cooled tablet that generates anything like as much heat as the Wii.

I think we're seeing the same thing from slightly different perspectives. I'm not ignoring your point about passive cooling. Technically Wii and GC are passively cooled, it's just that their small size allows the case fan to be close to the heat sink. So if you want to say that is active cooling, I won't argue. But as it stands I doubt that whatever TDP GC and Wii had was pushing the max that case design could handle. Especially if you had a heatsink/fan combo for the CPU and GPU. So I can't just look at the Wii U's case and assume it's going to affect the graphical power at the level of what I'm considering. Considering how long the chips are supposed to have been in design, I'd assume that would be a non-issue.

[ToTTenTranz]

If dual-slot graphics cards can dissipate ~250W with relatively silent cooling, why wouldn't the Wii U be able to dissipate some ~120W of total system heat (65W GPU + 30W CPU + rest)?

This is the 150W HD6850:


It's also one of the most silent cards available, running furmark.

The Wii U is quite a bit larger than the Wii. If the PCB has the approx. the same size (maybe even smaller since there is no I/O and memory card slots for GC) and a similar sized optical drive, then the extra space can very well be dedicated to a pumped up cooling system, similar to a modern-day graphics card or high-end laptop.




IMO, the "Wii U can't consume more than 40W" assumptions have the same "value of fundament" than the "Wii U coming with a 960 shader GPU" ones.

[Shifty Geezer]

Originally Posted by ToTTenTranz

It's also one of the most silent cards available, running furmark.

I count 60 dBA as a terrible racket. Googlage gives a fan noise of 360 at 50+ dBA, and people complain about the noise - I know I've found XB360's fan obtrusive. The consoles target the quietness of a CE device, especially Sony nd Nintendo, and 60 dBA for your 'quiet' PC GPU is way too loud for a console. 40 dBA up close is probably the sort of upper target Nintendo are aiming for, meaning a quietish hum at distance.

[function]

Originally Posted by AlStrong

I would think the largest power draw might be the display itself, considering the processors aren't always at 100%, though I'm not entirely sure. And on that note, I wonder what battery life to expect of the WiiU controller.

I saw some power consumption slides for Windows Phone 7 devices from MS. IIRC, they showed the display was normally the single greatest consumer of power, but the CPU could batter the battery if you weren't careful. For the IPad I guess things will probably be even more skewed towards the screen.

I hadn't been thinking about battery life for the Wu screen. Man, I hope you won't be spending a lot of time using the charge and play cable ...

Originally Posted by bgassassin

I gotcha now. I don't think the GPU will either. I would guess that Nintendo's max target for Wii U would be something like 100w.

I'll take a guess at about half of that!

I think we're seeing the same thing from slightly different perspectives. I'm not ignoring your point about passive cooling. Technically Wii and GC are passively cooled, it's just that their small size allows the case fan to be close to the heat sink. So if you want to say that is active cooling, I won't argue. But as it stands I doubt that whatever TDP GC and Wii had was pushing the max that case design could handle. Especially if you had a heatsink/fan combo for the CPU and GPU.

The way the GC and Wii are designed you get air effectively ducted over the heatsink, which is the same thing as having a fan on the heatsink (barring any push/pull differences). In something like the Wii, adding a fan directly to the heatsink would mean a shorter heatsink, interrupt air flow through the case and may actually reduce overall cooling effectiveness. Unlike PCs the cooling has to be considered for the system as a whole rather than on a per-component basis. Even "passive" GPUs in the PC space require good "active" case cooling for anything other than the most scrubby of GPUs!

So I can't just look at the Wii U's case and assume it's going to affect the graphical power at the level of what I'm considering. Considering how long the chips are supposed to have been in design, I'd assume that would be a non-issue.

Thermal issues place a cap on performance even in the PC space (look at CPU TDP ratings for example) and that's despite decades of experience, the most advanced fabbing processes on earth (Intel are giants) and the capacity for much larger and much more expensive cooling solutions. There's no getting away from the heat issue unfortunately!

[function]

Originally Posted by ToTTenTranz

If dual-slot graphics cards can dissipate ~250W with relatively silent cooling, why wouldn't the Wii U be able to dissipate some ~120W of total system heat (65W GPU + 30W CPU + rest)?

Size and cost. A "silent" 250W GPU will use large, very expensive cooling and will be noisy compared to a 360S and a Wii. 120W of heat would put a system up above the 360 Falcon revision that required two 6cm fans, miles of ducting, a huge aluminium cooler on the CPU and a large aluminium cooler (with bonus heatpipe and radiator) on the GPU.

Look at the size of the cooler and the size of the fan and its intake on the 360S. It draws about 80W at the wall.

The Wii U has one little exhaust fan at the back. Even if it ran really fast and the WiiU was stuffed with heatpipes it wouldn't be able to deal with as much heat as the early 360s.

[ToTTenTranz]

Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer

I count 60 dBA as a terrible racket. Googlage gives a fan noise of 360 at 50+ dBA, and people complain about the noise - I know I've found XB360's fan obtrusive. The consoles target the quietness of a CE device, especially Sony nd Nintendo, and 60 dBA for your 'quiet' PC GPU is way too loud for a console. 40 dBA up close is probably the sort of upper target Nintendo are aiming for, meaning a quietish hum at distance.

Look at the link again and, this time, don't mistake the custom-cooled XFX version with the vanilla HD6850.

That's 47.7 dBA for the whole system, meaning the card itself (dissipating those 150W) is probably below your 40dBA.

[Gubbi]

Originally Posted by ToTTenTranz

Look at the link again and, this time, don't mistake the custom-cooled XFX version with the vanilla HD6850.

That's 47.7 dBA for the whole system, meaning the card itself (dissipating those 150W) is probably below your 40dBA.

Probably not.

If it was at 40 dBA and the system total was 47.7 dBA, the graphics card would only contribute 17% of the total noise. Highly unlikely.

Let's say noise is directly proportional to power usage. 150W would then be 60%-ish of 47.7dBA or 45.5 dBA.

Still quiet.

Cheers

[Shifty Geezer]

My bad.

[Shifty Geezer]

Originally Posted by Gubbi

If it was at 40 dBA and the system total was 47.7 dBA, the graphics card would only contribute 17% of the total noise. Highly unlikely.

40 dBA attributed to the graphics card out of 47.7? ToTTenTranz is affording the GPU the greater bulk of noise generation. I'm still not convinced Nintendo would go with an 80 degree C GPU in their little space, but the noise from these GPUs can be kept down better than I expected. Underclock that same 6850 and it could be run quietly.

[Rodéric]

People talking about their wet dreams rather than speculating again ?
meh !

[Gubbi]

Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer

40 dBA attributed to the graphics card out of 47.7?

Decibel is a logarithmic scale. 40dB of 47.7dB is 10^((40-47.7)/10)= 17.0%

Cheers

[function]

*Looks at the ~7cm, dual slot radial fan taking up the back third of the 6850*

*Looks at the WiiU case*

Can someone help me out here? Where the hell is that thing supposed to go in a WiiU?

*Looks again at the 6850 cooler*

And it looks like it might be using heatpipes. Three according to Rage3D. Heatpipes - a console vendors favourite cooling requirement!

The 6850 review linked to in the above discussion shows the GPU hitting a pretty high 81 C, at which point the underside next to the case (in a console it's not suspended in mid [flowing] air like in a PC) would be very warm and unconformtable to touch, like when my laptop hits 75 C on the CPU and I feel the underside. Not so good for a cute, family friendly little games console.

Nope, I'm afraid the idea of high end PC GPUs in a WiiU is looking as unlikely as ever.

BTW, Anandtech show that from 2 inches away from the chassis, the 360S measures 45 db idle and 51 with the disk spinning. Meaning that if you install to the HD, it's basically 45 db.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/3774/w...box-360-slim/3

[Shifty Geezer]

Originally Posted by Gubbi

Decibel is a logarithmic scale. 40dB of 47.7dB is 10^((40-47.7)/10)= 17.0%

Cheers

Of course. Although perception of audio isn't linear either, like perception of light, so 10x the volume doesn't equate to something sounding ten times louder, just as 50% less light corresponds to about a 10% drop in perceived brightness. I'm not sure numbers are a good way of describing audio contributions, except maybe to audio engineers used to working with them. If a hot GPU can be cooled using 40 dBA fan, that'd work in a console I think. I still don't believe that can be made to work in Wuu, but I'm not so worried about fan noise being the issue any more (just everything else! ).

[function]

Wii U doesn't have a huge radial fan with a gaping, unprotected, child-arm-mincing intake though. It has this bad boy:

http://www.inside-games.jp/article/i...14/198592.html

I don't think that could cool a 140W GPU, even to 81C, even with a bonus heatpipe. On the plus side it might be physically too small to be as distressing as the fans on a 90nm 360.

[ToTTenTranz]

Originally Posted by function

Size and cost.

Out of each you and I have no ideia of either one.. so for now it's not really an argument but more of an excuse..

Originally Posted by function

A "silent" 250W GPU will use large, very expensive cooling and will be noisy compared to a 360S and a Wii. 120W of heat would put a system up above the 360 Falcon revision that required two 6cm fans, miles of ducting, a huge aluminium cooler on the CPU and a large aluminium cooler (with bonus heatpipe and radiator) on the GPU.

Never suggested silent 250W GPU for Wii U or any other console, that's ridiculous even by my standards.
I said silent 150W graphics cards fitting in a dual-slot PCI-Express, and those exist today, just check anandtech's link.

You look at a 150W HD6850 (40nm) with its cooler, and you could fit 2 of those inside Wii U's case, even with the optical drive included.

Originally Posted by function

The Wii U has one little exhaust fan at the back. Even if it ran really fast and the WiiU was stuffed with heatpipes it wouldn't be able to deal with as much heat as the early 360s.

The exaust fan is the only thing you see from the photos. It doesn't mean it's the active cooling component iinside the console.

Originally Posted by Gubbi

Let's say noise is directly proportional to power usage. 150W would then be 60%-ish of 47.7dBA or 45.5 dBA.

Well we can't really assume noise is directly proportional to power... it depends on the fan's size (there could be an 80/mm horizontal fan inside the console, I don't see why not), and the amount of heatsink material you have to dissipate the heat.

Even the perception of noise can't be directly measured in dBA, since our brain "amplifies" the frequency range around the human voice's range.

That said, that sound level was measured with the graphics card and with a cooler for an i7 920 (which shouldn't be neither small or silent).