[patsu]

Yes, I read about the harsh terms (e.g., Upfront payment, and it takes too long to execute). No doubt those processes and terms need to be revisited.

Sony's first parties tend to explore the bleeding edges to develop Sony's market (e.g., 3D games). I read that one manager said as long as their titles make money, they are happy. They don't generally bang on a few big hits.

[Grall]

Originally Posted by function

That could mean a fan at the back and some intake over a heatpipe from the top and side, or a blower and output from the back and side, like a 6950.

It'll be a standard axial fan no doubt. Blowers take up too much internal space in such a small enclosure...

I'd thought that the Gamecube was closer to the Wii in terms of power draw, being around 20-odd Watts or so in actual use.

Hurm, maybe you're right, I honestly can't remember with 100% certainty. I seem to recall the power adapter being 40W though, which is why I assumed that to be the power draw.

My GC was far from silent btw, that small fan was annoying but less so than one of my DCs and the early 360s I used.

Weird, your GC must have been faulty then because mine was literally whisper quiet. You had to put your ear close to the fan vent to hear it at all. The hub motor of the optical drive made more noise, and it was REALLY quiet!

Sega used heatpipes in 1998. MS in 2005. Sony in 2006.

Sony used integrated heatpipes in the large die-cast pin-fin cooler for the early PS2s... The Dreamcast cooler was clearly overengineered for the heat load it had to handle, it could have managed beautifully with just regular sinks on the main chips.

Can Nintendo hold out forever? I think they want to, and probably can. Dollar spent on fancy cooling would probably upset Nintendo deeply. They probably wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

Hah. Well, it's more a case of there having to be a credible reason for it. Since Nintendo favors simple and efficient hardware over raw power and big figures ever since the anemic N64, the heatload would have to be big enough to warrant any heatpipes. And I don't think it will be, considering the still really rather small chassis of the WiiU. I'm sure Nintendo looked closely at Microsoft's issues with inadequate cooling in the 360 and learned from that.

[function]

Originally Posted by Grall

It'll be a standard axial fan no doubt. Blowers take up too much internal space in such a small enclosure...

Yeah, like I say, I expect a small ducted fan and aluminium heatsink. Probably without a heatpipe. But ... you're being a killjoy!

Hurm, maybe you're right, I honestly can't remember with 100% certainty. I seem to recall the power adapter being 40W though, which is why I assumed that to be the power draw.

Power adapter was 40W I think, but draw was much less. Microsoft are the only company with the courage to have a 205W adapter for a console drawing 200W. I remember a bizarre thread where people with launch 360s were having to hang their power adapters by by the wire, because if placed on a surface the heat build-up would cause an unstable supply leading to artifacting or crashing.

Weird, your GC must have been faulty then because mine was literally whisper quiet. You had to put your ear close to the fan vent to hear it at all. The hub motor of the optical drive made more noise, and it was REALLY quiet!

My GC sounds like all the other GCs I've used! It's never been intrusive when I'm actually playing a game, unlike on the 360 and the one whiny DC I had. My 360 is a Falcon and it stays nice and cool, but the fans make this strange buzzing sound even when they're not spinning fast (they hardly ever speed up). I must just be picky about fan sounds. I spend a lot of time eliminating annoying sounds on my PC - there are certain tones that seem to anger me.

Sony used integrated heatpipes in the large die-cast pin-fin cooler for the early PS2s... The Dreamcast cooler was clearly overengineered for the heat load it had to handle, it could have managed beautifully with just regular sinks on the main chips.

Didn't know about the PS2 heat pipes, but I guess it makes sense for early ones. It was only early DCs with the heatpipes - I'm guessing that as yields improved (there were some problems initially) voltages and temperatures could be reduced.

Hah. Well, it's more a case of there having to be a credible reason for it. Since Nintendo favors simple and efficient hardware over raw power and big figures ever since the anemic N64, the heatload would have to be big enough to warrant any heatpipes. And I don't think it will be, considering the still really rather small chassis of the WiiU. I'm sure Nintendo looked closely at Microsoft's issues with inadequate cooling in the 360 and learned from that.

The 360 is legendary. Overheating PSU, overheating memory chips, overheating and self destructing GPU, fast noisy fans, slow noisy fans, hot DVDs, fans maxing out when idling on the dashboard. A comprehensive catalogue of poor thermal engineering. They held out so long against putting a heatpipe on the GPU. They patched up symptoms without addressing root problems for so long. They even tried glueing the GPU package to the mobo without actually increasing cooling. Superb. Well done MS!

I don't think Nintendo will make any of the same mistakes. I'm interested to see the vents on the WiiU (presumably to draw additional cool air over the heatsink), but I know in reality that whatever cools the machine will be cheap and quiet.

Edit: link to pic of the case vents posted by Nightz in other thread: http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.p...postcount=1098

[function]

Just a thought: we know IBM are making and fabbing the CPU, right? We know ATI are designed the graphics. Do we know who is fabbing the GPU? If not, does that mean that it's integrated into the CPU like the 360 S, or that Nintendo don't know themselves yet? I can't see any reason to know but keep it quiet given all the other back-slapping press releases that have been pushed out.

[liolio]

Originally Posted by function

Just a thought: we know IBM are making and fabbing the CPU, right? We know ATI are designed the graphics. Do we know who is fabbing the GPU? If not, does that mean that it's integrated into the CPU like the 360 S, or that Nintendo don't know themselves yet? I can't see any reason to know but keep it quiet given all the other back-slapping press releases that have been pushed out.

Either they have something to hide or at this point they prefer to wait till the next big gaming show (possible news at tgs?)

[function]

Originally Posted by liolio

Either they have something to hide or at this point they prefer to wait till the next big gaming show (possible news at tgs?)

Can't see GPU fab being a significant TGS style peice of news.

Maybe the thing they want to hide is that it's an integrated solution, as that gives an indication of the kind of performance level Nintendo are targeting?

[pc999]

KillersFreaks gameplay

At first the idea of using the giros to control this FPS seemed very strange,but as I saw more of it is growed on me, I am now really interested in trying it, cant come to soon, it really seems imersive.

All your house is the screen

The assymetric gameplay also seems fun,and those guys really seems to have fun with it.

In terms of gfx it does seems very early in the devlopment cycle tosay but they are still weak.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p99gh...layer_embedded

[function]

Maybe I'm over-reading this, but here is the IBM press release about the Wii U:

http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pr...ease/34683.wss

They describe the chip as being 45nm, SOI, and "the heart of the new Wii U".

Nowhere do they say it is the CPU or "central processor(s)".

CGPU indirectly confirmed?

[AlStrong]

You should note "microprocessors" (plural) then too. *shrug* (multicore)

[ninzel]

Originally Posted by pc999

KillersFreaks gameplay

At first the idea of using the giros to control this FPS seemed very strange,but as I saw more of it is growed on me, I am now really interested in trying it, cant come to soon, it really seems imersive.

All your house is the screen

The assymetric gameplay also seems fun,and those guys really seems to have fun with it.

In terms of gfx it does seems very early in the devlopment cycle tosay but they are still weak.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p99gh...layer_embedded

Interesting but I'm still unclear after listening to what he said.
Is aiming handled only by moving the controller in space or do you still use the thumb stick while the moving of the controller accelerates or augments the movement by the stick?

[function]

Originally Posted by AlStrong

You should note "microprocessors" (plural) then too. *shrug* (multicore)

Gah! Ambiguous plurality!

Originally Posted by IBM

The all-new, Power-based microprocessor will pack some of IBM's most advanced technology into an energy-saving silicon package...

Singular!?

What does it mean?

[pc999]

Originally Posted by function

Gah! Ambiguous plurality!



Singular!?

What does it mean?

Size/heat will not mater for 2-3x PS360...


You can have a i3 380 + 5650 in a mac mini or in a inexpensive laptop, and have a lot more stuff in there like a HDD, 4+1GB, a batery, a keyboard, speakers...

All 40-45nm PC parts.

Certainly custom chips at a low power silicone (like they say in the IBM press release say) will do much better.

[pc999]

Originally Posted by ninzel

Interesting but I'm still unclear after listening to what he said.
Is aiming handled only by moving the controller in space or do you still use the thumb stick while the moving of the controller accelerates or augments the movement by the stick?

A combination would be cool too...

[AlStrong]

i3 380 is 32nm

[function]

Originally Posted by pc999

Size/heat will not mater for 2-3x PS360...

I'm sorry, but that is not a remotely sensible thing to say.

You can have a i3 380 + 5650 in a mac mini or in a inexpensive laptop, and have a lot more stuff in there like a HDD, 4+1GB, a batery, a keyboard, speakers...

Wii U isn't a laptop, it won't use those laptop parts, and laptops still have engineered cooling solutions, normally with a heatpipe or heatpipes (something even MS has tried to avoid using because of cost).

Size and cost issues don't go away just because you saw something in a Mac Mini! Also, laptop blowers sound like crap under heavy load and any console vendor that puts one in a console can bugger off!

All 40-45nm PC parts.

The Xbox 360 Slim uses 45 nm parts, and has a large cooler and fan. Perhaps you should inform MS and Sony that heat doesn't matter?

Certainly custom chips at a low power silicone (like they say in the IBM press release say) will do much better.

They will still generate heat that needs to be managed.

[pc999]

Originally Posted by AlStrong

i3 380 is 32nm

You are right but even if your replace it with a Core Duo it still is 2-3x more powerfull and there is many laptops versions (in 45nm dont know if there is any in 65nm).

The same is true to the mobile tri core Phenon II.

Certainly there is more 45nm CPUs on laptops that will fill the bill.

And isn't PowerPC better on keeping low temps, and IBM in general are very sucefull at that look at power7, 8 cores 2,4Ghz 32Mb edram and 65W of power

Certainly they can do a nice work on a custom chip 2 years later with refined low power process.

[pc999]

Originally Posted by function

The Xbox 360 Slim uses 45 nm parts, and has a large cooler and fan. Perhaps you should inform MS and Sony that heat doesn't matter?

How much heat does it generate?

More or less than the 65W of Power 7 (OoE 8 core, 32 threads, 2,4Ghz lots of edram a monster for any console standards)

or

20W (OoE 4 core, 16 thread 1,4Ghz lots of edram, still more gigaflops than Xenon, if you want to use that metric, still quite good the purpose)


Also they cant lower the 3,2 Ghz and use other lower power architeture, and that will always do heat, unlike a new chip.


All of this and the GPU may be 32nm and very good at openCL apps.

[AlStrong]

Originally Posted by pc999

How much heat does it generate?

I can't recall exactly, but it might be worth checking out the HotChips presentation on the 45nm development of Xbox 360.'

edit: here it is: http://www.hotchips.org/uploads/arch...en-XBox360.pdf

[pc999]

Originally Posted by AlStrong

I can't recall exactly, but it might be worth checking out the HotChips presentation on the 45nm development of Xbox 360.'

edit: here it is: http://www.hotchips.org/uploads/arch...en-XBox360.pdf

That is to big for me to see that now, but like power7 we have some really complex processors, using relatively very little power that have up to 3 times more transistors of both xCPU/xGPU and even the smaller/low power versions would beat the living hell out of xenon and with lot of stuff not needed to a console.

You certainly find 40-45nm GPUs that are 3x more complexs with low power and better performers

Having 7 years to rethink stuff certainly helps a lot.

BTW look at Phenon II they got quite a jump in clock speeds and consume a lot less too, all in 45nm

[dobwal]

Originally Posted by pc999

How much heat does it generate?

More or less than the 65W of Power 7 (OoE 8 core, 32 threads, 2,4Ghz lots of edram a monster for any console standards)

or

20W (OoE 4 core, 16 thread 1,4Ghz lots of edram, still more gigaflops than Xenon, if you want to use that metric, still quite good the purpose)


Also they cant lower the 3,2 Ghz and use other lower power architeture, and that will always do heat, unlike a new chip.


All of this and the GPU may be 32nm and very good at openCL apps.

You can go with a 8-core Power 7, but be prepared to pay PS3 launch prices or more for a console with a cpu thats 567 mm2. New Power based chips aren't small or cheap and are meant for systems that cost enough to buy 200 Wiis per unit.

I don't see the reason why people get all excited with the insinuations of "Power7" and "4850" for a console thats targetted to perform similarly to consoles launched 5-6 years ago. Given Nintendo's conservative target for visuals, inclusion of a screened controller, phobia of negative hardware margains and limited space, even if Nintendo has Power7 and HD 4850 series based tech in its console, they will be soo derived as to share little of the performance characteristics of its cousins.

[function]

Originally Posted by pc999

How much heat does it generate?

More or less than the 65W of Power 7 (OoE 8 core, 32 threads, 2,4Ghz lots of edram a monster for any console standards)

or

20W (OoE 4 core, 16 thread 1,4Ghz lots of edram, still more gigaflops than Xenon, if you want to use that metric, still quite good the purpose)

You're comparing server chips with HUGE margins that can sustain shitty yields AND be binned for different profiles to a single-use chip that needs high yields and absolutely, positively has to be as cheap as possible.

It is not a reasonable comparison.

Also, 20W for the CPU alone would be far more than the cooling solution in the Wii has to deal with, and would probably be closer to the total heat output from the Wii U's CPU and GPU combined.

[AlStrong]

Originally Posted by function

Also, 20W for the CPU alone would be far more than the cooling solution in the Wii has to deal with, and would probably be closer to the total heat output from the Wii U's CPU and GPU combined.

Isn't the 20W for the entire Wii? The RAM and DVD drive use power too.

[ERP]

Originally Posted by liolio

Either they have something to hide or at this point they prefer to wait till the next big gaming show (possible news at tgs?)

When have Nintendo ever "volunteered" specs.
I've only ever seen them publicly through developer leaks.

[patsu]

Nintendo president puzzled by investor reaction to Wii U:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7590A220110610

Nintendo President Satoru Iwata said he was surprised at the tumble in the company's share price following the unveiling of a successor to its smash hit Wii games console, adding that the new gadget had to be played to be understood.

...

"At the moment, there is a barrier between the Wii, which is seen as for casual users and the other companies' consoles, which are seen as for core gamers. We are questioning whether that barrier needs to be there," said Iwata.

...

[function]

Originally Posted by AlStrong

Isn't the 20W for the entire Wii? The RAM and DVD drive use power too.

Yeah, the in-game at-the-wall power readings I've seen around the net vary between 18W and 22W. After PSU efficiency (I doubt they're 85%+ like good PC PSUs), Wifi, DVD, RAM, fan ... you can see how that little aluminium heatsink and little fan can handle things!

Hoping for a 20W CPU and 24 W GPU is probably a little optimistic.